Ultimus' TankMage Mastermind -- List of AV's OWNED
By
Akuma_Mishima,
Posted on: 2007-12-24 23:19 in Masterminds
Oh and I saw someone was asking how I do it: Well it comes down to a few things:
1) Mastermind's single target DPS is EXTREMELY high. A Mastermind's DPS is a combination of 3 things:
A) Pets
B) -Resistance
C) Mastermind damage.
I use hasten and I am building IO rechargers to try and max out recharge. My mastermind in itself is probably around 70-80 maybe even 100 DPS with just spamming Veteran attacks. My pets probably deal around 120-140 DPS maybe higher (Cause of burn) and then I hold opponents in place with web grenade.
On top of that, I will soon have trip mines for more DPS and my Poison trap has 2 procs in it that can go off 4 times each 10 seconds. (Poison has two holds) That is also effected by the -Res.
My -Res can also be stacked due to Acid Mortar being two seperate entities so that is -40% resistance and if I had the -Res Proc IO that'd be -80% resistance. (I have it but it isn't slotted cause I hate that it debuffs me)
Finally, I use Caltrops for some small DPS (Maybe 5 DPS) and I plan on loading them with proc IO's too once I get more slots.
All in all, I am probably dealing around 350-400 DPS total with -Res factored in to AV's. I don't even need the -Regen it is just icing on the cake.
Two more to add to the list:
Lights out for Luminary!
Time to turn her into scrap metal
I didn't know I could make robots puke!
Trapped in my web
And now she's been smashed
Nice exp she gives
Infernal belongs back in Blizzard
Infernal will meet my MagiTek creations
His demons were no match for me
Look! Infernal Pukes Fire! *NOTE: Not really just puked while doing fire breath animation
Lasers fly everywhere!
Flames expell from Infernal's dying body
And finally he cools down
The puking fire screenshot was amusing.
Nice job man. I haven't tried solo yet, but now I'll have to try eventually with my thug/traps.
I know a duo of thug/traps & thug/traps or thug/ff will smash higher con AVs. (A team I run with a friend - 2 thug/ff & 2 thug/traps - that is the fastest I have ever seen any av/hero/whatever go down).
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
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Scrappers cannot do it due to their DPS. The best Scrapper builds top off at around 160 DPS also due to animation limitations. This also factors in criticals. This is another reason why people say sets like SS/SM/EM are overpowered because it allows tankers to meet the standards of Scrappers.
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I cannot find the many threads, but I believe Catwhoorg would beg to differ. He has soloed most of the game's AVs and the weakened Hami from the LGTF.
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lets say for example that no other AT other than MM can solo an AV even with inspirations, that just further emphasizes the initial point. You aren't seeing the forest because of that one small-insignificant-not-really-a-tree-more-like-a-shrub that you are so insanely focused on.
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Why use as an example something that is nowhere near the truth? There are a number of Blue side combos out there that can solo specific AVs and a smaller number that can do the same with a wide range of AVs. Then you throw in the two readily available Elite Boss pets and "soloing" AVs/Heroes is pretty much open to 90% of the game's AT combos. The game has moved far beyond where soloing AVs was a taboo to be nerfed to oblivion.
I assume the following is the forest I'm missing for the trees:
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This reminds me of the posts we used to make for scrappers and controllers. Crap, here comes the nerf for MM's.
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You are so caught up in your perceived past injustices that you cannot see that the dev team have an entirely different emphasis than they did back when the AV-killer inspired nerfs (if there ever really were any) dropped. What history we have with the "new" NCNC dev team strongly suggests that performance is no longer measured by single accomplishments (Statesman, "Oh noes, the players are beating our hardest content. Geko, make it not so by the most painful, illogical nerfs possible."), but are instead being determined by aggregate data analysis, specifically (and probably overly simplified) inter-AT comparison of experience gain rates (i.e. the Blaster changes and hints of what may be done to Stalkers).
The devs play the game. They know as well as us what each AT is capable of. Threads like this are not going to surprise them or somehow shock them into wielding the nerf bat.
Ultimus, keep us up to date on your progress. I, for one, like to see the peak of what we can do.
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lets say for example that no other AT other than MM can solo an AV even with inspirations, that just further emphasizes the initial point. You aren't seeing the forest because of that one small-insignificant-not-really-a-tree-more-like-a-shrub that you are so insanely focused on.
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Why use as an example something that is nowhere near the truth? There are a number of Blue side combos out there that can solo specific AVs and a smaller number that can do the same with a wide range of AVs. Then you throw in the two readily available Elite Boss pets and "soloing" AVs/Heroes is pretty much open to 90% of the game's AT combos. The game has moved far beyond where soloing AVs was a taboo to be nerfed to oblivion.
I assume the following is the forest I'm missing for the trees:
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This reminds me of the posts we used to make for scrappers and controllers. Crap, here comes the nerf for MM's.
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You are so caught up in your perceived past injustices that you cannot see that the dev team have an entirely different emphasis than they did back when the AV-killer inspired nerfs (if there ever really were any) dropped. What history we have with the "new" NCNC dev team strongly suggests that performance is no longer measured by single accomplishments (Statesman, "Oh noes, the players are beating our hardest content. Geko, make it not so by the most painful, illogical nerfs possible."), but are instead being determined by aggregate data analysis, specifically (and probably overly simplified) inter-AT comparison of experience gain rates (i.e. the Blaster changes and hints of what may be done to Stalkers).
The devs play the game. They know as well as us what each AT is capable of. Threads like this are not going to surprise them or somehow shock them into wielding the nerf bat.
Ultimus, keep us up to date on your progress. I, for one, like to see the peak of what we can do.
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you know what, just stop reading my posts, you obviously can't see the point and are too focused on a minor detail. just stop.
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you know what, just stop reading my posts, you obviously can't see the point and are too focused on a minor detail. just stop.
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How about you just tell me your point since I cannot find it.
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Scrappers cannot do it due to their DPS. The best Scrapper builds top off at around 160 DPS also due to animation limitations. This also factors in criticals. This is another reason why people say sets like SS/SM/EM are overpowered because it allows tankers to meet the standards of Scrappers.
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I cannot find the many threads, but I believe Catwhoorg would beg to differ. He has soloed most of the game's AVs and the weakened Hami from the LGTF.
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Like I said, I know completely min/max and IO'd out a lot of the Scrapper builds were:
Claws: 120 DPS
Broadsword and Katana: around 110 DPS
Spines: 100 DPS
MA: 130 DPS I think
Dual Blades: Unknown (Done before it)
Dark Melee (Which is the highest) was around 160 I believe. Now if he's doing it then probably 160 DPS is enough to overcome their regeneration. However, I know in a thread comparing to max Tanker DPS versus Scrapper Tankers could get equal or better to the best IO'd out Scrapper build for DPS.
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Caveat: There may be particular Defender or Tanker builds that could achieve a particular solo AV/H kill, but that is the exception, not the norm.
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Just as a note, I'm sure that there ARE Defender and Tanker builds that CAN solo many AVs without the use of inspirations. And a lot more with the reasonably fair caveat that the Defender may use Break Frees (only) since unlike MMs, Scrappers, and Tankers, they don't have both offense and status protection available.
[/ QUOTE ]I've seen a Rad/Sonic defender solo Adamastor.
Just saying.
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I've seen a Rad/Sonic defender solo Adamastor.
Just saying.
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With two Shivans. Jock did it on Test when the latest reworking of regen happened. He also did it under 3 minutes, IIRC.
I really haven't heard of hero ATs outside of certain controllers actually soloing an AV unless a Shivan was involved. Even then, I would be hard pressed to think they didn't use inspirations. Do heroes still solo TFs? Yes they do. They just bring backup.
I see Ouroboros works. I, for one, would like to welcome Ultimus to I6.
@Deadedge and @Dead Edge
Peace through power! Freedom is slavery!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo
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Scrappers cannot do it due to their DPS. The best Scrapper builds top off at around 160 DPS also due to animation limitations. This also factors in criticals. This is another reason why people say sets like SS/SM/EM are overpowered because it allows tankers to meet the standards of Scrappers.
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I cannot find the many threads, but I believe Catwhoorg would beg to differ. He has soloed most of the game's AVs and the weakened Hami from the LGTF.
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Like I said, I know completely min/max and IO'd out a lot of the Scrapper builds were:
Claws: 120 DPS
Broadsword and Katana: around 110 DPS
Spines: 100 DPS
MA: 130 DPS I think
Dual Blades: Unknown (Done before it)
Dark Melee (Which is the highest) was around 160 I believe. Now if he's doing it then probably 160 DPS is enough to overcome their regeneration. However, I know in a thread comparing to max Tanker DPS versus Scrapper Tankers could get equal or better to the best IO'd out Scrapper build for DPS.
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Last I heard, standard AV regen at level 50 was a little over 100 HPS, so doing 160 (*.95) should be enough if you keep up a perfect chain and are willing to wait a while.
Burn does about 50 DPS, I think, so it means that you have to average 50 DPS to beat the AV's regen... that does include the time to drop Burn, which takes about 20-30% of your time. So 70% of the Tank's offense has to beat 50 DPS, at a minimum. Less, if you're using a /SS Tank whose Rage will buff Burn. The Patron immobs aren't bad damage, actually, Ring of Fire has a 1 sec activation and does 50 damage UNSLOTTED, so if you slot it for Damage, it will help you take the AV down. It's duration is 18 sec or so with 10 recharge, so it should be easy to keep the 2 applications that you need upon an even level AV up at all time, even if you have to spend a slot on Immob/Recharge or something like that.
Of course, for many AVs, beating their regen isn't enough. Envoy will heal, Nosferatu lifetaps, Nemesis will phase out which gives him time to regen, etc.
Still, doing 120+ sustained DPS, including misses and time to use inspirations, defensive powers/heals, etc, is not as exclusive as it seems at first. Since a Shivan alone provides in the neighborhood of 100 DPS, anyone can put out the damage fast enough with a Shivan to defeat almost any AV. The catch is surviving, and without inspirations, not too many can tank an AV for several minutes (and if you don't tank, it steps on your Shivan in about 20 seconds).
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Of course, for many AVs, beating their regen isn't enough. Envoy will heal, Nosferatu lifetaps, Nemesis will phase out which gives him time to regen, etc.
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Sky, are you factoring in AV defenses/resistances or are they diverse enough across the set of AVs that generalities like 120 DPS are broadly applicable? For example, I just smoked the Hero version of Indigo (Take that for sending me all over the damn city, biotch!). She did not even seem to have resistances, but Marauder is a S/L nightmare, even without his Unstoppable.
it takes alot to solo AVs..
you need damage, plain and simple.
you need res, def, and regen debuffs, at the VERY least. (or enough damage to counter missing, resistances, and regen)
you need a way to keep up the first two, without dieing yourself
/Most/ MMs have all that in thier primary and secondarys, its just applying them that makes them powerful. My bot/traps can do everything ultimus can do and may even do it faster, as per her spec. her build currently is worth around 750 million infamy (LOTS of uniques, two purples, 9 more on the way, pet auras, etc) and well.. when you throw that much infamy on an already nasty combination (bot/traps) you get something that can really stream roll over anything you throw at it.
one of these days im gonna finish arbegla 2.0 and then post everything shes done.. but until that day, keep up the good work ultimus and welcome to the club.
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Scrappers cannot do it due to their DPS. The best Scrapper builds top off at around 160 DPS also due to animation limitations. This also factors in criticals. This is another reason why people say sets like SS/SM/EM are overpowered because it allows tankers to meet the standards of Scrappers.
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I cannot find the many threads, but I believe Catwhoorg would beg to differ. He has soloed most of the game's AVs and the weakened Hami from the LGTF.
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Like I said, I know completely min/max and IO'd out a lot of the Scrapper builds were:
Claws: 120 DPS
Broadsword and Katana: around 110 DPS
Spines: 100 DPS
MA: 130 DPS I think
Dual Blades: Unknown (Done before it)
Dark Melee (Which is the highest) was around 160 I believe. Now if he's doing it then probably 160 DPS is enough to overcome their regeneration. However, I know in a thread comparing to max Tanker DPS versus Scrapper Tankers could get equal or better to the best IO'd out Scrapper build for DPS.
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Catwhoorg Uses Inspirs
Regardless of anything else, Ultimus still soloed an AV version of the MM killer Calystix, which is pretty impressive. I was barely able to solo the EB version with my thugs/dark and my friend's necro/traps had to use a shivan, and even then he had to try a couple of times.
just curious... how come you dedicate so much time to showing a video game forum how well you do with the game set on one of the easiest modes? I'm not talking about the difficulty slider, I mean the AT's and powersets you choose to do this with. You took the easiest route possible. In all honesty, all you're really accomplishing is doing what others have been doing for years and sensationalizing it. At the end of the day, grabbing a FotM toon and doing something that's not very challenging for it isn't very impressive or even noteworthy. I view it somewhat akin to pulling open the cheat console on a single player FPS and typing /godmode and then loudly brandishing your win.
I think your biggest accomplishment so far hasn't been solo-ing AV's. It's been marketing yourself. In that regard, I'll offer you credit and say good job.
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just curious... how come you dedicate so much time to showing a video game forum how well you do with the game set on one of the easiest modes? I'm not talking about the difficulty slider, I mean the AT's and powersets you choose to do this with. You took the easiest route possible. In all honesty, all you're really accomplishing is doing what others have been doing for years and sensationalizing it. At the end of the day, grabbing a FotM toon and doing something that's not very challenging for it isn't very impressive or even noteworthy. I view it somewhat akin to pulling open the cheat console on a single player FPS and typing /godmode and then loudly brandishing your win.
I think your biggest accomplishment so far hasn't been solo-ing AV's. It's been marketing yourself. In that regard, I'll offer you credit and say good job.
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I dunno, Soloing AVs on an EM/Ele Brute is Impressive to me, and I Solo Most AVs I come across on all my Characters, I doubt any Brute combination would have an Easy time of it
my point is, why not try it with toons that aren't so obviously FotM?
I'm far, far, FAR from the only one who's noticed that Ultimus has a tendency to have a beer and then spam "ZOMGARSH beer is AMMAAAAAZING!!!11!!" as if it was some long forgotten secret worthy of front page news. Where have you been?
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my point is, why not try it with toons that aren't so obviously FotM?
I'm far, far, FAR from the only one who's noticed that Ultimus has a tendency to have a beer and then spam "ZOMGARSH beer is AMMAAAAAZING!!!11!!" as if it was some long forgotten secret worthy of front page news. Where have you been?
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Ive seen it, I honestly dont care either way. Soloing an AV is a feat to be proud of no matter what character youre playing, because to be honest, it takes some Skill to do it.
Your Average Player cant Solo Most AVs on their Character, no matter if its FotM or not, so for him to do it is an Actual Accomplishment.
and there you're dead wrong. the top reason you'll see touted for not soloing AV's is that it's too time consuming, not that it's too hard. True, your average player can't do it, but then again, I'm hard pressed to find any average casual players who could care less about even trying.
I do have to thank Ultimus for one thing that he's done without meaning to: he's blown the pants off the claims I've seen one or two idiots repeat over and over about how terrible bots DPS is.
I told you so.
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just curious... how come you dedicate so much time to showing a video game forum how well you do with the game set on one of the easiest modes? I'm not talking about the difficulty slider, I mean the AT's and powersets you choose to do this with. You took the easiest route possible. In all honesty, all you're really accomplishing is doing what others have been doing for years and sensationalizing it. At the end of the day, grabbing a FotM toon and doing something that's not very challenging for it isn't very impressive or even noteworthy. I view it somewhat akin to pulling open the cheat console on a single player FPS and typing /godmode and then loudly brandishing your win.
I think your biggest accomplishment so far hasn't been solo-ing AV's. It's been marketing yourself. In that regard, I'll offer you credit and say good job.
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Because they are the classes I enjoy? I have fun with it? I've always played the Tank in MMORPGs (and yes Mastermind classifies as a tank at least mine does). Robotics was a natural selection since my pets heal each other and are the most tank of the bunch. Traps I've always liked it is just a fun set to me.
The "cloth" archetypes just do not appeal to me. Corruptors, Dominators, Defenders, Stalkers, etc. I cannot help the fact the game sees them as weaker or more support wise.
What is fun for me is pushing the game to extreme limits. I try and answer the question:
"As a solo character, what can I accomplish? What is the most powerful character and what is its limits?"
This is fun for me, is finding those limits.
you are the penultimate power-gamer Ultimus, I'll grant you that. I don't really fault you for that part, I share your attraction for powergaming and we happen to share a lot of AT and powerset choices. Where we differ is in the realization that they ARE powergamer sets. I know they over-perform and see no reason to state the obvious, whereas you seem obvlivious to the fact that everyone already knows these are powerhouses. Am I totally off base here? It just comes across to me, and judging by the amount of flak you seem to draw perhaps some others, that you appear to be doing what many others who fulfill both being experienced, and rolling a strong build can do, but are trumpeting it a little excessively.
I'm rambling. (and well on my way to comfortably drunk I might add 
) but basically what I'm getting at is yeah, us veteran players know we can do this stuff, but why is it neccessary to post a play by play of something that's not really that big of a deal to vet players using powerhouse builds? I also roll a bots/traps and an ill/rad on blue side which I know you do as well. But even though they're both well capable of some silly [censored], to be honest I ramp my AV mish's down to heroic EB's just for the sake of blowing through them as fast as possible so I can move on to the next mish. I did that "I wanna see if I can pwn this AV" back in '04/'05 before we were given the option to make them EB's. When they let us do that I quit bothering with it. I dunno. I guess I'm getting cynical but I find it difficult to understand people still enjoying AV soloing after all this time.
totally off-topic: Faxe Brewey in denmark brews 10% alcohol beer. If your local beer store carries it, it has a pretty good flavor to it as well.
I enjoy Ultimus's posts, I am not sure why he catches so much crap on the forums. He lays out the battle with good detail and often witty pictures and comments, its entertaining. Someone always wants to chime in that "unless you beat a AV using no sheilds and only brawl then your cheating", its crazy.
I rolled up a Fire/Fire Brute after reading his posts (back when thats what he was posting) and took on a few AV's myself and I would hardly call it easy because of the build.
Fighting AV's is always a challenge, so what if he picks power builds, I would be willing to bet that most people would find AV solo fighting insanely frustrating even with those powersets. Go try to fight an AV like Silver Mantis on a MM, one slip up and your pets are toast and you will not be far behind.
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Just as a note, I'm sure that there ARE Defender and Tanker builds that CAN solo many AVs without the use of inspirations. And a lot more with the reasonably fair caveat that the Defender may use Break Frees (only) since unlike MMs, Scrappers, and Tankers, they don't have both offense and status protection available.
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I still think it is build and AV specific. I looked over the Tanker forums and found no mention of soloing AVs. (Didn't even try the Defender forums.) Both suffer from the same problem: lack of enough sustained damage to overcome AV's defenses/resistances and regen. Certain Defender combinations can overcome both defenses/resistances and regen with debuffs, but I don't think they do so in sufficient fashion to bring the AV down. I've heard of lots of Defender duos taking down AVs, but never doing them solo.
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Any Fire/x Tank who takes either the Ice or the Fire epic pools can Immob an AV in their Burn patch, for starters. With IO set bonuses you can get a Burn patch down permanently, and you get Healing Flames up every 15 seconds or so for a huge heal. Perma-Burn will allow the Tank to trivially beat the AV's regen rate (easier if it's a Fire/SS tank so that Burn gets the Rage bonus). Granted, all that's assuming some nice IO bonuses, but that's a reasonable assumption when we're talking high-difficulty tasks.
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Are you sure that Burn alone can beat an AV's regen rates after accounting for defenses/resistances? Tankers can put out some mean damage but without debuffs a lot of that damage is going to be lost.
Also, can a single Immobilized from the epic pools really lock down an AV? That is a lot of loss damage if you are continually spamming the power, which is the only way it's going to work. Working on my experience with Web Grenade, which has the same magnitude and duration as the Fire epic Char, very few AVs are immobilized with less than three or four applications and that is with a fully slotted power.
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Oh, and a well-IO'd Ice Tank or SR Scrapper can have the AV permanently floored at their To-Hit floor.
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The problem is not survivability, the problem is sustained damage output. Even with a full Inspiration payload, I am not sure Defenders and Tankers, in general, are able to his solo a wide variety of AVs, but I'd also say that about most Scrapper combinations and quite a few Mastermind combinations.
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MMs are not alone. They're probably among the easier AV soloers, but they're not alone.
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I was never making the argument that Masterminds were alone, but of all the combinations that can consistently solo a range of AVs, I think that /Traps, /Poison, and /Dark create the most viable AV/Hero killer combos than any other AT. Again, I am talking about the ability to defeat a range of different AVs/Heroes, not any specific AV/Hero - Primary/Secondary combination.
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I want to chime in on this: You need 3 things to beat an AV:
1) Sustained DPS (Or enough -Regen to overcome the AV's regeneration)
2) Sustained Defense so you can tank the AV as long as necessary)
3) Some way of managing your endurance to sustain 1 and 2.
Tanker's problem is sustained DPS. Even fully IO'd out with Energy Melee they top out at around 160 DPS. I am not sure how much AV's regenerate per second but for most AV's 160 DPS will not out damage their regeneration. My EM/Elec Brute that soloed most of the AV's (The thread is in the Brute forum) did around 300 DPS I believe and some of the fights lasted quite a while still.
If any Tankers could do it, EM would do it but even then due to resists they will run into problems.
Scrappers cannot do it due to their DPS. The best Scrapper builds top off at around 160 DPS also due to animation limitations. This also factors in criticals. This is another reason why people say sets like SS/SM/EM are overpowered because it allows tankers to meet the standards of Scrappers.