Draft: PvP Community Wish List
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2007-11-14 18:29 in Everything about PvP
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What if you had 4 seconds of fly instead of 4 seconds of hover at the end of a teleport?
I know I have often tp'd my self just to the edge of a building and not quite been able to make it to the edge and I think fly would have given me the extra oomph to make it.
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That would bring us back to making Fly viable in PvP 
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True. But Fly is still much better than unslotted hover.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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What if you had 4 seconds of fly instead of 4 seconds of hover at the end of a teleport?
I know I have often tp'd my self just to the edge of a building and not quite been able to make it to the edge and I think fly would have given me the extra oomph to make it.
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the hover was added to tp, for lag issues. It was too great a chance of some slow data causing you to plummet down to the ground. Now you could probably make a pitch for lessening the amount of hover after a TP, but you're probably not going to get rid of it outright.
Also TP is predictable as it is max range in a single line. TP becomes a little more tactical if you could control the distance (i.e. something like mapping the recticle to the mouse wheel so you could increment/decrement the distance)
Flight, would need suppression to be either gone, or lessened to no more than .5 seconds. There would also need to be some method of -fly protection added to some buffs, so that it wasn't rendered moot so easily.
I like the idea of giving Fly an exemption for the suppression rules, as well as -Fly protection. It will make kiting melees a much much easier task, but honestly to make it more popular it might be a sacrifice the PvP community would have to be willing to take. Although, depending on the mag of -fly protection it would have to be directly proportional to the suppression rules.
Dukerustfiled,
Perhaps the stalker population would go down some, perhaps, if some of the items suggested by Greobuck in his post a few above yours on page 4 took place.
This is just a perhaps and not a factual statement
I'm a flyer in PvP. My troller, Stalker (!), MM and PB all fly. I think it is actually very powerful. Because SS+SJ is the travel power dejeur, if you're not hit with -fly or have no status resists, you are pretty much invulnerable. My Stalker can pop people out of the air, and because he has great status resists, all he has to do is hold space bar and he's just escaped the vast majority of players - if he gets impaled or Air Superiority'd, he turns on Jump Pack. Flying MM sending pets to attack with a lot less concern for getting ganked. It's the most maneuverable travel power with relatively low End. I think it should pay for it by having some handicaps. With -fly resist, I think ranged attackers would make most melees either have to adopt fly, or reroll.
As for the buffs proposed by Groebuck, in BB/SC, villains do fine. Corrupters, because of their secondaries, make pretty awesome fights. Everyone is so concerned about damage alone, but that's hardly all there is to PvP. Sure, if you buffed Corrupters and Doms, more people would play them, but since I think they're pretty on par with Blasters/Trollers now (in BB/SC) I don't think that's the way to go.
I would agree with you on the Fly thing, my only PvP specd toon had fly and ASing Hover Blasters was a hoot, so many ppl use SS/SJ that most, not all, player believe stalkers cannot fly
you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
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... if you're not hit with -fly or have no status resists, you are pretty much invulnerable.
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This is like saying, if you're not hit with holds and nobody attacks you, you are pretty much invulnerable.
Seriously, someone comes in here with 44 posts to his name, spends 2/3rds of those posts nerfherding and trying to dispute what folks who have between 5x, 10x, and 20x the amount of posts are fighting for.
What the hell have you contributed to this community except for crowing how overpowered Stalkers are and trying to prove how useful Kheldians are in PvP?
Considering you are stating your own opinions, using phrases such as:
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I think it is actually very powerful.
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I think ranged attackers would make most melees either have to adopt fly, or reroll.
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Then yes, it directly reflects on you and your purported contributions.
Anyway, back on topic. This is probably the best, most concise list I've seen on the subject. Wonderful work and /signed, if that really means anything.
As for flight in pvp (and pve) I think every power in the flight pool should passively (even when not toggled) shorten -fly and suppression durations. Perhaps 20% each, for a combined 80% reduction for characters with the entire pool.
SparrowhawkHummingbirdDungeon MasterCapricornHour WomanQueen NefariaJunkyard GirlDoll FaceStitchbladeRed MinstrelMimic
/signed. Fantastic list.
[u]Arena[u]
17. Almost impossible for MM's to recover after 1st death. MM respawns and is unable to resummon pets while opponent attacks/debuffs. There is no challenge in killing an 803 HP MM without pets.
18. MM's Initial setup with cannot be completed before opponent attacks. An opponet can easily get to the MM before second set of summoning animations are completed. Best case setup with Hasten and Force of Nature is still ~41 seconds. MM's need to enter Arena with six pets and equip/upgrade during the self affecting power time.
*summons Ex Libris*
Glad to see the PVP Community lobbying for some changes.
Keep it up and let me know when you have your final draft ready and I'll help you edit and sticky up your final drafts.
Ex
OMG First
...and Thank You for coming here.
Without further ado, since I'm incredibly bored at the moment, the long form of my two cents. I agree with a lot of the issues.. I'm mostly posting in regards to the stuff I didn't agree with right away.
BUGS - Virtually everything listed in the first set of bugs would be great to fix.
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2. Cage is overpowered since it has no workable counters. Add cage resistance (i.e., a decrease in duration caged) to one or more ally buffs.
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I disagree with this. Bringing cagers already has its downsides.. there are reasons people don't bring 8 sonics to a match. It's bad enough that teams find themselves switching toons in and out based on what the other teams are bringing. This would just lead to more of the same. Oh, you're bringing 2 sonic cagers? Brb, need to log in our <resist to cage buffers>. And, in actuality, people already do counter phase effectively either by extreme levels of defense buffs, or the more popular maneuver, phasing when an incoming cage is likely.
Fixing hero/villain balance (especially via epic sets and irresistable damage) is a good idea but also a monumental task. I think we all support it, but choosing the right way to fix these issues seems difficult.
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3. Brutes, tanks, and scrappers are entirely absent from high end team PvP. Consider adding resistance or protection to Cage to some of the sets that arent as good in PvP (invuln, stone, ea) and make taunt less easy to shake.
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See above for argument against resistance to cages. Making taunt less easy to shake, though, wouldn't be a bad idea, but it's probably hard to find the right balance. Overcorrect, and we'll have two fire tankers per match keeping the entire offense taunted without any difficulty. And, exclusion by AT is simply an extension of exclusion by powerset. There aren't any dark defenders in team PvP either... it just so happens that the purposes of scrappers and the like are more homogeneous (i.e. defenders can be emps, kins, sonics..) so the entire AT gets excluded. Oh well 
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7. The difficulty of leveling and equipping toons decreases the number of people who can get involved in competitive PvP. Make a paid PvP expansion where you can auto level to 50 and get unlimited loot for a toon, but can only play in the arena and PvP zones.
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This already exists to some extent, with players paying for toon PL's. Maybe my response is biased since I'm a poor college student who winces every time I pay my $13 or so per month, but giving rewards to those who pay more seems pretty elitist to me.
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8. There are no true instanced PvP missions. A popular suggestion is Hero vs. Villain in PvP enabled Safeguard/Mayhem.
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..This would be awesome >.> I'll never forget the time a bugged arena event transported me to a player's mission. Would've been awesome if I could trow fiar at them
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11. A good PvP build can be very different from a good PvE build. Allow players to toggle between build so they can use the same toon to be good at both PvE and PvP.
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Bleh. This is one of those things that has no major downside (aside from being a major infl sink for those who want two builds) but I don't really support it anyway. Seems like too much micromanagement, I guess.
Fixing most of the arena bugs is a good idea, except:
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4. The only affecting self timer is unreliable. Testing had it varying between 3 and 17 seconds: a world of difference in an arena match. Please normalize the timer.
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Normalizing the timer, as stated before, reduces unpredictability and results in an even more vulnerable respawning target. Like I said, if one of my jobs on kin is disruption and if I know for certain that a target will come out of OAS in 10 seconds, you can guarantee they'll be getting slept right when that 10 seconds is up.
At least now, players who die can sometimes get back in the action earlier, and sometimes overzealous opponents are punished by wasting their attacks on a target that is in a long OAS. Unpredictability is nice, and it can keep teams from farming a la "player X... fire... they're down, wait 10 seconds and fire again, they won't have any buffs."
And, please fix the teleport-self-while-TK'd bug. It applied to the regular Teleport power as well as the arena temp. That's one bug I've made countless posts about
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1. Observers have trouble following the action in PvP matches. Greatly increase the flight speed of the arena bots. Consider adding an option to grant them +perception.
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Flight speed yes, perception no. Again, reasons were stated before... as annoying as it is to sit around unable to see the action because one team's employing a stealth tactic, I'd rather have them be able to run/hide than have it boil down to a match of "who has more camera spies on Ventrilo."
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Add selectable maps, as well as the ability to eliminate maps from the selection while still having a random pick.
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Yes, please. Smash Brothers Melee style... allow us to keep it random without choosing a specific map, but rather, eliminate other map possibilities. And something to police inspirations would be nice, too.
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10. Many people dislike that deaths arent shown on the scoreboard. List deaths and kills for all matches, as its shown in base raids.
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I can see that leading to plenty of forum drama and insults. Again, another issue with no major apparent downside that I don't really have any support for. Whatev.
Ongoing scoreboard for observer bots would be nice, though if you add it, then perhaps make it available to those fighting in the match as well. Otherwise, teams with observers on their Ventrilo will have the one-up (knowledge-wise) over teams that don't have the luxury of an extra person keeping score tabs.
I don't really play zones, but a lot of the suggestions seem good. Also, I would actually play an FFA Lv50 zone, especially if I didn't have to worry about getting one-shotted to 1hp by a heavy.
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17. Almost impossible for MM's to recover after 1st death. MM respawns and is unable to resummon pets while opponent attacks/debuffs. There is no challenge in killing an 803 HP MM without pets.
18. MM's Initial setup with cannot be completed before opponent attacks. An opponet can easily get to the MM before second set of summoning animations are completed. Best case setup with Hasten and Force of Nature is still ~41 seconds. MM's need to enter Arena with six pets and equip/upgrade during the self affecting power time.
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From all that I've seen, masterminds who take these factors into account can still fare fairly well. Setup time is just a balancing factor for the fact that Bodyguard is a very powerful ally. Allowing masterminds time to setup is ridiculous, as it takes time away from their opponents' strategy, allowing the MM to conserve break frees.
Even if you allow them to zone in with some pets spawned, that's still ridiculous. Bodyguard makes MM's difficult targets to take down... are you saying MM's should get that benefit without sacrificing anything? The fact that they need to set things up is simply a balancing factor.
...And... guess that's it for now >.>
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Even if you allow them to zone in with some pets spawned, that's still ridiculous. Bodyguard makes MM's difficult targets to take down... are you saying MM's should get that benefit without sacrificing anything? The fact that they need to set things up is simply a balancing factor.
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Non-FF MMs have the drawback of having a maximum of 800+some change health, lack of decent personal shields, and in some cases, no decent self-heal. An MM really is the sum of their pets... without them, they are 1/2 the health of everything else they are going to fight with nothing but BG. In addition, though less so for Arena, TP Foe on a large map in a hidey hole where the pets freak out, is just going to make things worse.
In addition, no resistance to fire is a bummer when most Blasters take the powerset.
MMs have the luxury in PvE to say "Go on ahead, I'll catch up" and let the others pull or catch aggro till they're ready. In PvP, time is of the essence, as is preparation and setup.
What if MM's were allowed to summon pets during the set up timer? 10 seconds isn't much, but its better than a stick in the eye. But it also doesn't give them all the time in the world to set up all their pets and buff them.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Again, it seems like a balancing factor for how good MM's can be in Bodyguard. And it seems a little too convenient to cite 800-HP MM's while citing 1600 HP for supposedly overpowered blasters and 2409 HP cap for scrappers. If you assume one has accolades, assume the other does too. MM's can get a decent amount of HP with set bonuses and accolades, so don't give the low estimate to make the case look more need-worthy.
Setup during the 10-second countdown would be nice, but it would hurt MM's who have slow PC's and thus don't make it into the match for the full countdown, plus it'd probably be very difficult to set up, especially with how the arena "disables" all powers in use at the start of a match.
It seems to me like the only ways to "fix" this, aside from calling on the MM to utilize some skill and accolades in order to survive the initial attacks, are ways that would greatly skew the fight in favor of the MM.
Do we let blasters get deep into Defiance and pop a bunch of oranges before attacking? Dominators are fairly weak without Domination running... do we give Doms 10 seconds to build up Domination before a fight? (Please recognize these as rhetorical)
Sorry, any case for helping MM's seems to make no sense, especially after 1) seeing how survivable they can be with all their pets up and 2) hearing how amazing certain players on /poison MMs already are in fights.
In Wow battlegrounds, I seem to recall that Warlocks used to respawn without pets. I hopped back in a while back and saw they now do. I think it was because of the extreme cast time and mana meant that the penalty meant for PvE (not insta-popping new suicide pets and actually needing to keep them alive) was carrying over to a place they never intended.
I'm not sure if instant-spawning would be best, but maybe full spawn without buffs OR maybe just Tier 1 spawning?
MMs : 803.17 / 1606.35
In order to get an additional 642.82 health, they would need Frostwork every two minutes. Accolades will grant you an additional 84 health, and set bonuses I'm guessing would be another 15% if you do it just right. So another 84 for a grand total of 168 + 803.17 = 971.17.
~6-7 seconds (if you have a good macro setup) to summon all pets for full "weak pet" bodyguard mode, 50.22/~12 seconds for Tier 1 upgrades, and 74.22 /~30 seconds for Tier 2 upgrades. I also wouldn't suggest buffing them on the run, just because the animation roots the pet and will reset if you move out of range.. sometime it will just lock the pet in place and not move until you use Recall Friend, or kill it and resummon. Also, BG works only for the MM.. firing on the 1059.6 x 3, 1064.7 x 2, and 1067.8 x 1... gah.. I can't tell if these numbers are even right.. my MM is 44. I'm reading that in full BG, the MM is taking 2/8ths of the total damage and the Pets are also taking 1/8th apiece. So 25% or less for blasters on.. meh.. I can't think straight.
The big issue is that if the MM is beaten within that 45 second window and the map is small- or mid-sized, the match is pretty much over. No other AT requires 45 seconds to turn on shields, buff and go. Granted, when the juggernaut gets rolling and the opponent can't push out damage (read: Tanks) it becomes very difficult.
If it is a 2 vs. 1 with a Blaster, then the teamed vills are going to win.
Did the locks also have more than 2 attacks and 9 support powers? I forget.
I haven't looked entirely into the specifics of MMs, but it seems odd to me that defenders and trollers can fairly easily get from 1017 to 1400-1500 HP, while (conveniently, for your "help MM" argument) MM's supposedly won't break 1000.
Number-fudging aside, like I said, I still don't see a consistent way to help MMs that won't simply hand them the match on a silver platter. Well-played /poison MMs seemingly perform just fine without being cut any slack. Perhaps emulating their strategies would be a better solution...
And like I said, should we start letting Dominators build Domination before attacking? I mean, Doms are pretty weak without Domination.
Yah, I agree with all of this. Can't think of anything else that is important, really, at this juncture.
Although, I have seen some mention of a handicap system to help out new players learning PvP (and maybe to help out players in general). One idea was to start out players with the highest handicap, giving them very high buffs or something (resistance, tohitt, damage, whatever). As they make effective kills their handicapp would go down, thereby decreasing those buffs. Just another helpful way to learn.
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6. You can enter 1v1s while teamed, allowing dominators to build domination at a faster than intended rate.
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I was under the impression the team domination point buff was just for PvE. I thought for PvP it was a set amount and you gained points at the same rate regardless of teamed. At least from my experience, at least, I gained domination at the same speed solo than when in a team match.