Accolades and Exemplars


Acroyear2

 

Posted

The current setup of allowing accolades to be usable only down to the level they were earned should be changed because of the following drawbacks:

1) Promotes unusual behavior on low level characters.
2) Is unfair to higher level charcters.
3) Creates PVP imbalance.
4) Does not match how the rest of the game deals with character development and powers.

The game should allow you to use the Accolades you have earned regardless of your current level.




Let me elaborate.

1) Unusual Behavior on the way up.
I've met players who don't want to gain XP at level 30 until they've exempared away enough debt for High Pain Threshold. Stop and think about that a moment: they don't want to gain XP. How backwards is that?
Further, you see a lot of people worrying about getting requirements as soon as possible. You find low level characters broadcasting for Preatorian teams to get Portal Jockey early.
Consider that IOs work just fine the other way. If you want to have Stealth at level 25, you can find a 28-or-lower Celerity Stealth, but you don't need to scramble for all that cash while at level 25, you can take your time and buy it later when you have a lot of Inf. However, if you want Freedom Phallanx Reserve at level 25 you can't just wait until you can defeat Fake Nemeses yourself.


2) Unfair to older characters.
Any character who was already high level when an accolade came into existence has no chance to have it at low level, no matter how easy it can be earned. Nothing about Demonic is difficult to acquire at level 30, yet someone who was level 40 when the accolade was introduced can't use it at 30. Another example, people can now have Vanguard at level 35, but any character who had to wait for level 40 before Issue 10 is still locked in at level 40. This problem re-occurs every time a new accolade is added to the game.
How does a level 50 view an accolade? Take something like Archmage that involves killing many high level foes. A 50 spends much of their time exemplaring, and the accolade won't be useful then. Is it worth the 50 spending time getting an accolade they can only use a fraction of the time? Accolades could be an opportunity to constantly build on a level 50 character, similar to how Inventions revived the life of many 50s, but that doesn't work nearly as well as it could because of the exemplar limits.


3) PVP imablance.
This is not really about balance from hero to villain - different sides have different accolade requirements and different types of builds. (For example, +5 End is very different depending on how many other people around town can buff you with a +End power.)
The imbalance is that 2 characters can never be equal in PVP if one has early accolades and the other doesn't. 2 Tanks in Sirens Call could be totally equal if not for one having 15% more HP thanks to help getting accolades by level 30. This is highly unusual given the amount of effort put into balancing the PVP environment.
Further, this is not something that can ever be fixed. If one tank has Stone Skin and another doesn't, they second tank can respec and trade off some other power to gain Stone Skin at 30. They're stuck without accolades forever, though.


4) It's unusual.
The only other examples I know of where the game says "do this right the first time because you'll be stuck like that forever" are 2 badges (Efficiency Expert, Jailbird) and Patron selection. 2 of those 3 have a lot of warning attached, Jailbird probably should have warnings, and none of them relate to gameplay balance or character development. (Even if you pick a patron later, it doesn't change how you can build your character when you respec. In fact, they give you a respec for just that purpose.) There is no warning for Accolades, and no way to alter your build.
The usual Dev response on Accolades and exemping has been "that's how you existed back at that level". To that, I can give a huge list of things that illustrate Exemping as a power scale-down, and not a time-travel flashback.<ul type="square">[*]You can use Temp Powers that you did not have at that level. This includes powers that aren't even possible at that level, such as using Warburg Rockets or Vanguard Heavies while at level 20.[*]You can use Veteran Rewards powers that you had not yet earned when you were that level. Also, you can use them regardless of your level when the reward was actually claimed. or even if Veterans Rewards didn't exist when you were that level.[*]You can use GVE- and DVD-edition prestige powers at any level, regardless of what level you were when you added the code to your account. These powers are connected to Accolade badges, adding to the inconsistency.[*]You can wear costume pieces that you did not have at that lower level, and in fact pieces that could not be available at that level at all. Such as a cape or Vanguard armor at level 15. You can also change to multiple costumes you may not have had at that level.[*]You can set a badge title you had not earned by that level. In fact, can set the title of the badge that gives the accolade.[*]You can benefit from IO Set Bonuses and Global Effects even if you did not have that IO slotted when you were that level. For example, at level 50 you can add level 23 Miracle to get the Recovery buff while exemped to level 20. Yes, there is some limitation on which IOs provide buffs, but that is something you have complete control over, the game doesn't decide which buffs to allow based on what you had slotted at level 20, it looks at what you have slotted *now*.[/list]


The easiest, friendliest, simplest solution would be to just remove any level limitation on these powers. Have them act just like Temp and Inherant powers do.
Low level characters would like this change, high level characters would like this change. This change would simply make a lot of sense.


That's my opinion. What do you think?


 

Posted

Yeah I will second this.


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Posted

I can agree to this.
It will get rid of one thing to worry about. (ie what level you get an accolade at)



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Posted

/signed


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
I can agree to this.
It will get rid of one thing to worry about. (ie what level you get an accolade at)

[/ QUOTE ]


I'll say. I am weary of making new villains then prioritizing getting certain accolades (invader, demonic) ASAP before I even start worrying about leveling.


 

Posted

I certainly agree with the sentiment.

One cautionary note, when the origin temp powers first came into the game they were lost if you exemped below the level you acquired them at until you completed a respec.

Even if this was the only way round this problem, cashing out a respec to get the accolade available at level 1 would be worth it to me. Do it at the same time as a Freespec is given out, and bingo.



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Posted

/signed


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Posted

Never gonna happen no matter how eliquent and frequently you request this Mad.


 

Posted

I'd be all for this, with one possible caveat. Maybe limit the accolades to levels where it is possible to get them. ie: if it is not possible to get a certain accolade before level 20, then exemp'ing below 20 you'd lose the accolade. That way it remains "fair" to those below that level that have no chance at all of having that accolade.

On the other hand this would create more work as with each new patch it would have to be checked to make sure that the requirements of an accolade haven't changed.

Still, /signed either way


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Never gonna happen no matter how eliquent and frequently you request this Mad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not repeating this just to repeat it. There's been a request to gather up badge issues - this is clearly an issue for a lot of people (even if you do single out just me in your reply) - and to have larger discussions tangent off into semi-official threads instead of in the collected issue thread.

so... discussion. care to expand on *why* you think this is never gonna happen?


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be all for this, with one possible caveat. Maybe limit the accolades to levels where it is possible to get them. ie: if it is not possible to get a certain accolade before level 20, then exemp'ing below 20 you'd lose the accolade. That way it remains "fair" to those below that level that have no chance at all of having that accolade.

On the other hand this would create more work as with each new patch it would have to be checked to make sure that the requirements of an accolade haven't changed.

Still, /signed either way

[/ QUOTE ]

That was mentioned the last time this discussion came up.

Couple downsides...
- It's more work to set up. You either code each accolade differently, or code a table of minimum levels.
- It's more work to maintain, as you said. Look at how Vanguard changed from 40 to 35. This would also be work on our part to raise issue when that happens if the Devs don't catch it - why not fix it once?
- It's hard to establish a level. Is Watchman really a level 1 accolade? What about Invader? Is it really right to balance an accolade based on 1 particular badge location? (eg, the Freeze Ray is level 15 because of a PVP zone, yet uses a level 45+ mission, who's to say which level is more appropriate there? Just remove this whole discussion.)
- You have to observe PVP Parity. (not balance, parity. there's a difference.) If you let them all exist to level 1, you have a perfectly fair setup without having to analyze the details.
- It's an unnecessary complication. It's confusing for a casual player to know what's available when, especially with similar things on hero/villain sides acting different. Just going to lead to a lot of guides for what's available when. Keep it simple.



as for fairness compared to "native" level people... there's already enough things that are uneven. If I'm level 15 and someone else exemps to run Positron with me, they probably have more slots in their few powers than I have. They could have temp powers I can't access yet. They could have IOs I can't afford yet.

Speaking of slots, the scale-down code for slotting makes an exemplar LESS powerful than a native in many setups. Accolades can compensate a bit for that. In fact, since one of the most obvious problems is End slotting being less effective when exemped, getting some +End from accolades is a nice way to help address that balance. Guess you could make a similar case for defensive slotting and HP buffs. As for things like Demonic, the exemplar has enough additional Insp slots that they could easily reproduce the effect any time, the accolade isn't going to be any more imbalancing.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
The game should allow you to use the Accolades you have earned regardless of your current level.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not going to get a disagreement from me.




Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

Posted

I couldn't care less about PvP.

/signed


"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21

Guide to Base Teleporters

 

Posted

Very much /signed.

I believe I understand the Devs' original intent behind the way accolades work while exemplaring and at first glance when you say it real fast it makes some sense. But as you pointed out there are so many problems and quirks with it, especially in light of the way the game has evolved with IOs and Vet Award powers, that it seems like a logical QoL move to simply do away with the exemplar level lock concept all together.

Besides I think the Devs have far more to worry about balance-wise than an exmeplared level 5 firing off an Eye of the Magus or a Vanguard once every 30 minutes.


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Posted

I've /signed this kind of thing before and I'll /sign it again, then /sigh as the devs /ignore it.

EDIT:
As an explaination, I don't like how IOs encourage me to not level and not play the game. Right now, when I log in with my Rad/Sonic defender, I've got about 4 TFs I need to do... I feel like I _have_ to get those done ASAP or I'll miss out on 5% health I 'need' to have by level 37. For the longest while, I was sitting at level 30 trying to get the eye of the magus and that +10% health accolade. Rather than have fun with the game, I felt obligated to sit there and do nothing until I could hop on a team that was farming said enemies and get my accolades, especially since my character is for pvp.

In short, anything that encourages me to stop playing the game in order to get ahead is a bad mechanic and it should be changed, somehow.


 

Posted

Signed. And I don't PvP to speak of.

Edit: I should point out that I have two accounts and regularly use them to "twink" my characters with Accolade powers. I think it stinks that such is what it takes. I don't lord the fact that I can get them over others and would be just as happy if everyone could have them.


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Posted

/signed. /signed again and again. I'd LOVE to not have to spend time actively avoiding xp so I can get the "good" accolades in pre-30 on my villains.



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Posted

I swear to you, when I wrote all this up I had completely forgotten that I11 was supposed to include Flashback. Considering the information revealed today, I11 would seem to make this issue a lot more important now than it ever has been. (Not to mention some impact on the chaos that is the IO Exemping Rules, but that's for another thread.)
Guess it's good that we got a head start on this, huh?


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
In short, anything that encourages me to stop playing the game in order to get ahead is a bad mechanic and it should be changed, somehow.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the heart of it. Yup.

and the penalty if you don't do that makes no sense to me. Why deny content? Why block my use of a reward?


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Besides I think the Devs have far more to worry about balance-wise than an exmeplared level 5 firing off an Eye of the Magus or a Vanguard once every 30 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Are you suggesting that having the Sands of Mu and Nemesis Staff might have more impact on game play than having the Crey Pistol once every 25 minutes?


Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
hm well the upcoming flashback system may be of help on this.....hard to say yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it may only serve to highlight the problems.
If I was to exemplar and earn an accolade, it still locks in at my true level, not my exemplar level. So not only would Demonic have been insanely easy back when I was level 30, and I can prove it by dropping down to 30 and earning it at that level, but it doesn't matter. If flashback is merely the same as exemplaring as we know it, this won't help the situation at all. If flashback does offer a way to earn accolades as a low level, it will be too late for characters who already earned accolades.


Consider Task Force Commander. It's already an accolade I can earn during exemping. In fact, there's no way possible to earn it while over level 40. So if I'm playing myself as I was at level 40, then didn't I earn the accolade at level 40? Nope, it's locked in at 50. Makes no sense.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hm well the upcoming flashback system may be of help on this.....hard to say yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it may only serve to highlight the problems.
If I was to exemplar and earn an accolade, it still locks in at my true level, not my exemplar level. So not only would Demonic have been insanely easy back when I was level 30, and I can prove it by dropping down to 30 and earning it at that level, but it doesn't matter. If flashback is merely the same as exemplaring as we know it, this won't help the situation at all. If flashback does offer a way to earn accolades as a low level, it will be too late for characters who already earned accolades.


Consider Task Force Commander. It's already an accolade I can earn during exemping. In fact, there's no way possible to earn it while over level 40. So if I'm playing myself as I was at level 40, then didn't I earn the accolade at level 40? Nope, it's locked in at 50. Makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm well this is from the ish 11 update page

"Heroes and Villains also use the Ouroboros System to return to story arcs that they may have missed and replay hundreds of missions from earlier in the game. Players will even get to set mission parameters for these missions to earn special badges. Heroes and Villains will be auto-exemplared to the appropriate level for each story arc to ensure the challenge level remains constant."

So yeah sounds like flashback wont help secure them at a lowlevel......unless a lowbie can also flashFORWARD and setup a chance run certain accolade-component badge mishes at low level.