So this has been sitting here in the list for over a year and a half now (wow), so I think it's time we came to terms with it.
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Endurance costs of some sets (Jan 13th)
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Based on the Damage per Endurance numbers my Attack Chain Generator (see my sig) spits out, I'm happy to add the issue "Icy Assault is too endurance intensive". Do people support this? The thing is that Icy Assault is the canonical set in many ways, average damage, standard powers, and yet it has the worst endurance costs.
DPE vs. 3 targets:
Energy: 7.55
Fiery: 10.13
Icy: 7.91
Psionic 10.46
Thorny: 9.42
DPE vs. 1 target:
Energy 6.72
Fiery: 7.58
Icy: 6.09
Psionic: 6.70
Thorny: 7.55
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AI of pets with both melee and ranged attacks is very poor. (Kane1 March 16th)
[/ QUOTE ]I think that can be removed. Supposedly Jack's getting fixed, and the discussion about Audrey is pretty mixed right now.
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I'd really love to remove this, but until I can have some definitive statements that Venus is in fact fixed, I can't. Perhaps we'll have I10 tomorrow, and I'll be able to verify it for myself. Should probably take her for a spin now as comparison.
Edit: Wow, that was cutting it close, I just got her out to test, and I10 hit half way through the mission.
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But Venus isn't broken!
Supporting evidence: EvilRyu says she is gimpy. 
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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So this has been sitting here in the list for over a year and a half now (wow), so I think it's time we came to terms with it.
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Endurance costs of some sets (Jan 13th)
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Based on the Damage per Endurance numbers my Attack Chain Generator (see my sig) spits out, I'm happy to add the issue "Icy Assault is too endurance intensive". Do people support this? The thing is that Icy Assault is the canonical set in many ways, average damage, standard powers, and yet it has the worst endurance costs.
DPE vs. 3 targets:
Energy: 7.55
Fiery: 10.13
Icy: 7.91
Psionic 10.46
Thorny: 9.42
DPE vs. 1 target:
Energy 6.72
Fiery: 7.58
Icy: 6.09
Psionic: 6.70
Thorny: 7.55
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I thought this had been gone over before, and the DPE were right in line with the standard settings (5.2 end per BI?); it's only the fast animations in the set that let you burn the blue quickly.
[I could be wrong, but that's my recollection.]
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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I thought this had been gone over before, and the DPE were right in line with the standard settings (5.2 end per BI?); it's only the fast animations in the set that let you burn the blue quickly.
[I could be wrong, but that's my recollection.]
[/ QUOTE ]That's generally true, yes. Except that remember that two of the Assault sets have a bonus DoT, which inevitably raises their efficiency a bit (at least in the single target department), and Psi Shockwave obviously tilts the tables when it comes to AoE. So the only real competition is between Icy and Energy, in which case we have one that's efficient against single targets (because Power Burst is slightly more efficient than it should be and Bitter Ice Blast is slightly less efficient than it should be), and one is a good deal better at AoE (because Whirling Hands sucks).
What I don't get is how Lili's getting these "average" DPE numbers. Are you including the snipes? Cause I can't make Psi hit 6.70 in single-target without it. And how do you figure the "3 target" number, are you just running the average of all the powers and multiplying any AoE's by 3? And how does Ripper figure into that? Cause Ripper rarely hits more than two, as far as I can tell. (And it's costed as if it's not even expected to hit two on average.)
Edit: It occurs to me that Lili might have simply left out Psi Dart in Psi's averages, which doesn't quite bring it up to 6.7 in my model, but it gets it to 6.5, so I guess that's close enough. Out of curiosity, are you figuring these by taking numbers from an attack chain? Because if so, I think that's a little unfair, considering that different players will play the sets differently.
Alt-itis stole my soul!
The Annual Paragon City Gauntlet Marathon - Arc ID: 352887 (feedback appreciated)
Current Project: nothing specific, just general badge hunting right now.
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Based on the Damage per Endurance numbers my Attack Chain Generator (see my sig) spits out, I'm happy to add the issue "Icy Assault is too endurance intensive". Do people support this?
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No.
Having poor AOE performance is something I'd expect of a set focused on ST damage.
All Icy's DPE figures for single-target ranged and melee attacks are standard, except for Bitter Ice Blast, which is only overcosted by about 1 point (it should require 11.85 End for the damage it does, rather than 13). It burns through endurance because all its ST blasts activate so fast.
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I thought this had been gone over before, and the DPE were right in line with the standard settings (5.2 end per BI?); it's only the fast animations in the set that let you burn the blue quickly.
[I could be wrong, but that's my recollection.]
[/ QUOTE ]That's generally true, yes. Except that remember that two of the Assault sets have a bonus DoT, which inevitably raises their efficiency a bit (at least in the single target department), and Psi Shockwave obviously tilts the tables when it comes to AoE. So the only real competition is between Icy and Energy, in which case we have one that's efficient against single targets (because Power Burst is slightly more efficient than it should be and Bitter Ice Blast is slightly less efficient than it should be), and one is a good deal better at AoE (because Whirling Hands sucks).
What I don't get is how Lili's getting these "average" DPE numbers. Are you including the snipes? Cause I can't make Psi hit 6.70 in single-target without it. And how do you figure the "3 target" number, are you just running the average of all the powers and multiplying any AoE's by 3? And how does Ripper figure into that? Cause Ripper rarely hits more than two, as far as I can tell. (And it's costed as if it's not even expected to hit two on average.)
Edit: It occurs to me that Lili might have simply left out Psi Dart in Psi's averages, which doesn't quite bring it up to 6.7 in my model, but it gets it to 6.5, so I guess that's close enough. Out of curiosity, are you figuring these by taking numbers from an attack chain? Because if so, I think that's a little unfair, considering that different players will play the sets differently.
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Using the attack chain generator tool in my sig. The code is there if you want to dig into how it works. Of course it's certainly not perfect. I am including the snipes, and they probably should be taken out. It prints out the calculated attack chain for you as well. I have been including all of the available attacks, except I drop Thorntrops because I'm really not sure how to calculate its damage.
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Based on the Damage per Endurance numbers my Attack Chain Generator (see my sig) spits out, I'm happy to add the issue "Icy Assault is too endurance intensive". Do people support this?
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No.
Having poor AOE performance is something I'd expect of a set focused on ST damage.
All Icy's DPE figures for single-target ranged and melee attacks are standard, except for Bitter Ice Blast, which is only overcosted by about 1 point (it should require 11.85 End for the damage it does, rather than 13). It burns through endurance because all its ST blasts activate so fast.
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Ok, I took all of the AoEs out (except Psychic Shockwave and Ripper) and did a calculation against a single target:
Energy: 6.76
Fiery: 8.83
Icy: 7.14
Psionic: 6.70
Thorny: 8.87
This bears out your theory that Icy Assault is focused on single target damage. It's the AoEs that kill the endurance on Icy Assault. Are people comfortable with the fact that the Icy Assault AoEs kill endurance? Is this a problem for other Ice sets?
According to CoD, Singularity still uses the old 3 second animation times for Crush and Gravity Distortion. Has this been updated yet to the new under 2s animation times?
If not, this should probably be noted as an issue.
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This bears out your theory that Icy Assault is focused on single target damage. It's the AoEs that kill the endurance on Icy Assault. Are people comfortable with the fact that the Icy Assault AoEs kill endurance? Is this a problem for other Ice sets?
[/ QUOTE ]No more than it does for /Thorns.
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Icy: 7.14
Icy: 6.09
Thorny: 8.87
Thorny: 7.55
[/ QUOTE ]/Thorns has better efficiency to begin with, but it's clear that its AoEs actually hurt its single-target DPE more than /Ice's do. Me? I don't see a problem with Icy having mediocre DPE on both single-target and AoE. It's one of the two control secondaries. The fact that its AoEs aren't as efficient as Fire's or Psi's doesn't bother me in the least, given that Ice has Power Boost, and as far as single-target DPE, it's dead center of the rankings according to that latest sounding.
Alt-itis stole my soul!
The Annual Paragon City Gauntlet Marathon - Arc ID: 352887 (feedback appreciated)
Current Project: nothing specific, just general badge hunting right now.
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# Disorient duration too short for Wormhole. (Lemur_Lad September 5th)
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i just checked in a builder (mid's hero designer) and it list wormhole as lasting only for 2.7 sec ?! O_o
(no other AoE control is under 11.9)
if my builder is correct it's a shame that nothing have been done yet ! 
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# Gravity Distortion measuring poorly against other STHs. (Natsuki September 9th)
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could this be explained to me? not sure i see what's the issue.
PS: no offense, but does this list actually helped to solves some issues? (traduction, are the dev listening?)
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# Disorient duration too short for Wormhole. (Lemur_Lad September 5th)
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i just checked in a builder (mid's hero designer) and it list wormhole as lasting only for 2.7 sec ?! O_o
(no other AoE control is under 11.9)
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There's a 2.7 second delay in Wormhole's teleport and stun.
The base duration at L50 is 14.9.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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Endurance costs of some sets (Jan 13th)
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I'm of two minds about the End cost for /Icy.
Ice attacks have a recharge debuff, so are buying some control as well as damage with that end. So, it's not unreasonable for Icy attacks to cost more for the same damage.
I guess the question in my mind is - "does the End premium the Icy is paying match the cost of an equivalent control power". Can a dom with /Icy forgo using some control set usage and use that end for damage instead?
I'm not sure that was clear even to me - so to put it another way: Is the problem that /Icy costs too much end, or that it is right for what it does but encourages overcontrol?
EDIT: I wonder if the devs have gathered exciting live stats on how much Icy/ control is wasted on average in attacks on mezzed opponents and if so if they factor that into cost.
Hey uh, odd question...
I was teaming with a blaster buddy on the new RWZ content, and we were getting ready for a fight against one of the (presumably downgraded?) EBs (don't want to say who for spoilers), but on the walk up I saw that his triangles had just gone up, so I said "Mind waiting 50 seconds?", so I started counting, 3, 4, 5, knowing I'd missed like 3-4 seconds so I took a guess. When I idly got to about 37, I noticed that his triangles weren't up any more, and was all, "wtf?", so, I said ok, do over, and started counting the second his triangle up animation fired. After about 32 seconds, his triangle anim was no longer firing, although there was no obvious triangles down anim.
Anyone else report anything like this? Am I just going crazy or something?
No Goldfish, I don't think your nuts. I've been noting that I seem to be able to land holds more consistently on AV's when I was the only Dom on a team. I couldn't figure out why, but maybe a few seconds have been dropped up on the PTOD duration....I'll have to start counting now.
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
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No Goldfish, I don't think your nuts. I've been noting that I seem to be able to land holds more consistently on AV's when I was the only Dom on a team. I couldn't figure out why, but maybe a few seconds have been dropped up on the PTOD duration....I'll have to start counting now.
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Hey Princess Grace, you listening? Feel like running that Python script of yours again?
*bump*
So what!
This needs to be stickied.
Consistently posting in this topic is kinda like a ghetto hold.
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Hey Princess Grace, you listening? Feel like running that Python script of yours again?
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Sure, the numbers came out the exact same as they did a year or so ago: 50 up, 25 down on the animation. And that is expected since all I have are the original demos from way back when we went down this route the first time.
Give me some time to make a few new demo files against something with PToD and I'll get back to you. Before this topic came up I was knee deep in RWZ PToD and I don't recall them looking or acting out of the ordinary.
Princess Grace - MA/Inv scrapper
Solana - Mind/Energy dominator
Lyonette - Kat/SR scrapper
For the record, it was the named ballista (presumably downgraded to an) elite boss you fight in the later RWZ arcs which exibited the perculiar behavoir I mentioned.
I tok a demo of Lady grey in the mission to guard her, and used a stop watch as well as a demo analyzing program to time her triangles. Still 50 up, 25 down.
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I don't see a problem with Icy having mediocre DPE on both single-target and AoE. It's one of the two control secondaries.
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But general consensus is that secondary effects are not considered in the costing. All of the sets have secondary effects, and its hard to see a valid reason for one to justify a higher endurance cost, and not the others.
Looking at just the AoEs, I see that Fiery and Psionic have the best DPE, Icy and Thorny are on par, and Energy is about 10% behind those two.
So the conclusion is that Icy Assault is in fact about right. It's just that Thorny and Fiery have bonus DoT and buffs so the poor DPE on AoE isn't noticeable, Psionic has the unusally low costed Psychic Shockwave, and Energy's AoE is so bad there is little incentive to take it.
Now returning to our premiss that Icy Assault is too endurance intensive, which practical research has borne out, the conclusion must be that Dominator's DPE is too low, due to low damage modifiers. Of course this is offset by Domination's endurance refill and damage buff. Probably best to leave that for another discussion.
Next on the list:
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Debuffs, like -Recharge from Shiver should either be equal to a Controller's debuffs, or be boosted by Domination. What are they now?
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Looking at City of Data, I see that Controllers' Shiver applies an 81.3% debuff, while Dominators' Shiver only applies a 65% debuff, and that it isn't boosted by Domination. Similar disparaties exist for Arctic Air, Frostbite, Smoke and Hot Feet.
While I don't think that this is a serious problem for Fire Control, I do think it's a problem for Ice Control, because none of its every spawn control (Ice Slick, Shiver Arctic Air) improves appreciably during Domination. Combining that with reduced effectiveness compared to Controller versions strikes me as wrong. If people are willing I'd add the following:
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Debuffs from control powers should not be reduced in effectiveness compared to the Controller versions, because they are not boosted by Domination. This particularly affects Ice Control, because none of its staple controls (Ice Slick, Shiver, Arctic Air) are appreciably improved by Domination. Affected control powers are all Ice Control powers with their slow debuffs, Smoke and Hot Feet with accuracy and slow debuffs, as well as the holds and immobilizes from Gravity Control with their slows.
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Another discussion, the oft bemoaned redraw on Thorns:
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Does Thorny Assault receive something in exchange for the redraw animation?
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I have to admit that this doesn't bother me at all, in fact I don't even notice it. Do others find it to be a problem? What exactly would the issue be? How are other sets with redraws handled?
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AI of pets with both melee and ranged attacks is very poor. (Kane1 March 16th)
[/ QUOTE ]I think that can be removed. Supposedly Jack's getting fixed, and the discussion about Audrey is pretty mixed right now.
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I'd really love to remove this, but until I can have some definitive statements that Venus is in fact fixed, I can't. Perhaps we'll have I10 tomorrow, and I'll be able to verify it for myself. Should probably take her for a spin now as comparison.
Edit: Wow, that was cutting it close, I just got her out to test, and I10 hit half way through the mission.