Discussion: End of Top Cow CoH Comic
By
adathebloody,
Posted on: 2007-05-24 15:38 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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So, "Sexy Jay" of the costume thread was working on the comic?
No?
Matt Miller and the dev team were writing between working on code, planning future issues and such?
Also no?
Wait, that's where Cuppa really went... also a no?
This was taking too much of *WHOSE* time? There's a G-D story bible already with how much material to flesh out for players. The Blue King run played with the game from a "players" perspective - and, yes, was a treat to read and receive. I understand them going to PDF (but not the "Maybe if we don't get the PDF on the site they'll forget it" delay of the last two issues - by the way, when do we see issue 20? May of 2008?)
Let's see...
- Kill off the Paragon Times.
- Don't bother working on the website, instead sending info over to Warcry, MMORPG.com, anywhere BUT CityOfHeroes.com (other than a link.)
- Kill off the novels, even though the third was being looked forward to.
- Kill off the comic completely.
I call shena... no, that's not strong enough. I call [censored].
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QR
I believe Sean "Manticore" Fish was writing several of the issues. Other than that, I don't know that the comic had many of the game development people involved. However, I'm pretty darn sure that there was SOMEONE involved with the comic who's time was being monetarily compensated at least partially by Cryptic. Given that most of the players (at least most that I've talked to) were not buying the comic when it went to a paid subscription, I'm guessing that the comic was not very economically viable to continue indefinitely. So when they say that the time and energy can be more wisely spent, they most likely mean the money can be put to better use making the game better.
Personally, I have to agree. While I by and large enjoyed reading the comics, I didn't think that they were an outstanding example of that medium. Also, as has been said by others, the "feel" of the game didn't translate particularly well to the comic, neither in the Blue King nor the Top Cow runs. Honestly, when they look at their expenditures I'd rather see more money, time and energy going into the game than spending it on developing a frankly sub-par comic. They are a game company after all.
Having said that, I support the idea of having player created comics available as PDFs or some other medium on the cityofheroes website. Perhaps have a link to the company/software that was promoted with the Comic Book Creator Contest. Get some of the community team guys (Lighthouse, Ex, and anyone else that may be appropriate) to review submissions monthly and post them on the site. There are some great comic artists, screenshot editors, and story writers among us and it would be great to highlight them on the site. Further having something like this be open to anyone at any time (not just a one month contest) would give a great example of what the game allows: creating your own superhero. Any non-player coming to the site to see what the game is about before buying could get a great taste of the potential with a few of these.
Oooh, and maybe a player-made movie section too!
Okay, so maybe it wasn't a very quick reply after all...
Slug.
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QR
I believe Sean "Manticore" Fish was writing several of the issues. Other than that, I don't know that the comic had many of the game development people involved. However, I'm pretty darn sure that there was SOMEONE involved with the comic who's time was being monetarily compensated at least partially by Cryptic. Given that most of the players (at least most that I've talked to) were not buying the comic when it went to a paid subscription, I'm guessing that the comic was not very economically viable to continue indefinitely. So when they say that the time and energy can be more wisely spent, they most likely mean the money can be put to better use making the game better.
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Well, (a) it started out free - which, while perhaps not economically "viable," did draw people in, and (b) it played through War_Witch, Ajax, and Horus's eyes, not those of the Freedom Phalanx or other "major" groups.... two reasons why switching to paid didn't go over very well.
Well, that and some of the storylines. And art.
When I came into the game, late in issue 3, there was:
- involvement in the website
- apparent dev interest in the community
- the Paragon Times drawing people into the "world" of the game
- the comic being delivered doing the same thing.
All this actual interest in the community, in keeping a world live and vibrant outside the game, is *gone.* Yes, there are "initiatives" for player created content such as the City Scoop - but it is not the same thing. (Not, again, to belittle them or what they're doing.)
Fan initiatives? I can write a long storyline about how Manticore's father and Statesman had a long, forbidden love and Positron is actually his cloned, never-acknowledged lab-grown child... doesn't make it official, my characterizations could (and would) be way off, etc etc etc no matter how much people loved it. it doesn't actually give us a glimpse into the game world through the developers eyes.
Honestly, to me, they're slowly killing off the "community" so they can make this a "business." Yes, I know it is one as well - but that shouldn't be the be-all, end-all of it.
crap crap crap......they just keep on showing they really don't give a crap about us.
" I've said it before, I'll say it again, some of those "Recipe found" messages should be brown." Ullikummis
The Blue King run ended right when it was beginning to get good, and now the Top Cow run is ending right as it was fleshing out to be great as well.
I seriously doubt that the comic series is taking the time of anyone who actually works on creating content for the game, Lighthouse, and I feel you guys are lying to the community. I'm not at all happy that an advertised feature is being taken away, especially since I really enjoyed the comics.
Does anyone else find it rather ironic that a MMO based in the super-hero comic book world is canceling its own comic?
My major grip about the comics is that they have not been sent out or put up for download consistantly. We have been here for over three years now, and are just now getting issues 17 and 18... Technically, we should be closer to, at least, issue 35-36. Anyone who knows anything about comics can tell you that deadlines are the nature of the beast. I think the comic line has been poorly managed, and that's saying it nicely, in my opinion.
'Didn't anyone proofread this $#!tty game before they released it!?' -James, The Angry Video Game Nerd reviewing 'Double Dragon III'
I will miss Q 4ORCE so much! These 4 guys really were giving me a good laugh 
I liked the Top Cow comics but i prefered the way they were drawing the characters in the first issues. In the later issues, i think they changed the artist and i didnt like the new art ( which was looking more like anime to me ) . I prefer classic drawing and i liked alot Blue King Studio art. I wish BKS had written a story about the Freedom Phalanx.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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crap crap crap......they just keep on showing they really don't give a crap about us.
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I'd like to contend that they do. The makers of this game and the community coordinators have been working on multiple projects, including the City Scoop and the PvPEC.
There are several projects in the works, and there always will be.
Just recently (as in earlier this week), we were asked about what we, the fanbase, would like to see next in the game. The options we were given were taken from across the message boards, which they read constantly.
There is an entire thread based on giving us what costumes we want, and the Suggestions section is a constant source of inspiration to the makers of this game.
Does the discontinuing of the comic make us happy? No. I don't think it makes many people happy. They felt, however, that it needed to happen at this time, and I am choosing to respect that.
No, Sexy Jay wasn't working on it (in all likeliness). Nor were the other Red Names, I'd bet. Those are not, however, the entire staff of Cryptic or NCSoft. There are more. Many more. Gaggles more, I'd wager.
The inner workings of this company, such as any company, are too complex to judge solely on what we see on the outside.
I'm not saying don't voice your complains. Voice 'im. They are what tells the Devs what we want and need. I'm just saying that calling it something "stronger than shenanigans" or saying "the devs don't care about us" aren't actually compelling arguments.
I love this game. I'm said to see the comic go (I actually liked the first one quite a bit). I trust that there is a good reason it got canceled, if not for the reason they already stated.
I guess all the people that never liked the comic just can't be bothered to post in this thread. So I will! I thought that the comic was a waste of time and paper from the beginning. It rarely had any resemblance to what the game was about, and when it turned from original characters to focus on signature characters I really lost interest. I don't usually ask for much from my comic books but even when I read it for free as a pdf I felt like I had wasted money. If the money for making this came out of our subscription fees and that money now becomes available to pay for something I can enjoy, like more game content, then I'm happy.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Celestial_Fury, no need to miss Q4orce (which I love as well).
Aaron Williams has the occasional Q4orce strip posted on his site at http://www.nodwick.com (Well, you'll get 'henched' to his real site if you enter that, anyway.)
When he posts them, he posts them under the Nodwick comics. His Full Frontal Nerdity and PS 238 are hoots, too.
Re: the comic line ending -- not an issue to me. I liked the first series, with War Witch, Apex and co., and haven't cared for the comics since that cast and story were dropped.
~Elizabeth
Leave the saving of the world to the men? I don't think so! -Elastigirl
The SOLUS Foundation - http://www.solusfoundation.com
A Liberty-based bastion, seven years strong.
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Cryptic starts working with Marvel.
Cryptic shuts down its own comic.
Uhhhh, somebody want to pop a quick "In no way was this decision influenced by Cryptic's partnership with Marvel Comics" in there? I'm feeling a tad paranoid today and could use the comfort disclaimer.
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Well, let me refer to an event that happened about '93-94':
The Malibu Comics line of comics was started by three popular comic book writers that were fed up with how DC was running the editorial staff at the time. Malibu Comics (off of the top of my head, they held the 'Solitaire', 'Prime', and 'Deep Space Nine' comic series) became very successful very rapidly due to excellent writing and artistry. This caught the attention of Marvel, and they bought out the Malibu Comics franchise for a considerable sum of money. Once it was bought, Malibu Comics and its titles were never heard from again. Marvel brought back 'Deep Space Nine' in the quickly-launched 'Paramount Comics' line, but, it was garbage.
Eversince I've heard Marvel was starting its own MMO with Cryptic, I've been worried that the past is about to repeat itself again.
If you want to know how I know so much about this event that happened, I'll tell you; Gerard Jones and I used to write to each other often in the early '90s. Gerard Jones wrote for, at the time, DC Comics, writing on the titles of 'Green Lantern' and 'Justice League Europe'. He left DC shortly after the 'Breakdowns' JLE/JLA storyline ended and Andy Helfner left his editorial position. Gerard Jones got together with a couple of other writers to form 'Malibu Comics'. Once 'Malibu Comics' was bought out, Gerard left the comics scene to concentrate more on raising his family. I was lucky to have such a friend as Gerard, he taught me alot.
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Eh I know what you're talking about to some extent I was a fan of prime. However, today I was looking back on those issues and wondering what in the world I was thinking.
-I think what we saw posted today was code for...
"The comic cost money to produce and publish. And while the City of fans love it, we're not selling quite enough to non-playerbase comicbook fans to continue sapporting it. We will in stead spend the money and time use to meet with Top Cow and plot story as well as aprove content to instead bring more ingame activities to life"
just my perspective on it. I do think it's funny Marvel at one time had a pending lawsuit against the City of world and that they now work together... money real does pwn.
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If the money for making this came out of our subscription fees and that money now becomes available to pay for something I can enjoy, like more game content, then I'm happy.
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This is how I'm takeing the whole thing. Even if I loved the comic (which is not the case) I love the game more and always hope the in-game needs trump the City of side projects.
Well how about this.
The ended Blue King for Top Cow...
Cryptic is working with Marvel.. and the announcement was just the end of the TOP COW comic, maybe Marvel will be doing it now?
COMING SOON: A new Epic that will change the way you see Arachnos...
Brought to you by @Equation
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Cryptic starts working with Marvel.
Cryptic shuts down its own comic.
Uhhhh, somebody want to pop a quick "In no way was this decision influenced by Cryptic's partnership with Marvel Comics" in there? I'm feeling a tad paranoid today and could use the comfort disclaimer.
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There's much too big a gap between the Marvel announcement and this for it to be a factor.
@JohnP - Victory
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...The inner workings of this company, such as any company, are too complex to judge solely on what we see on the outside...
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However, a company that only shows that it is giving less services and does not show improvements gives the consumer an air of failure or money grabbing.
Less web involvement = NOT GOOD
Comic was free then we had to pay = NOT GOOD
Comic was monthly then every 2 months = NOT GOOD
Comic is gone = NOT GOOD (even though NCSoft had little to do with the comics it still reflects on NCSoft et al)
Sponsered events with cameos by States et all now only occur on test server = NOT GOOD (I play CoX not CoXTEST)
Regular issue updates to game = NORMAL (we were given this already with game launch)
Loss of some regular Red-Names to other projects = NOT GOOD (Not saying anything bad about present Red-Names)
Long outstanding bugs ignored in preference to rushing new issue release = NOT GOOD
Appearance of a company TRYING and promoting is neccessary to the consumer to have confidence in the game. When City of Heroes was the only kid on the block, it was the golden age now with City of Villains and Marvel moving in, we lost the "A-list" and are left with the "B-list" (hardworking and doing their best, but to this consumer not the visionaries that started it all)
I'll miss the comic and find that "The Scoop" is not a good replacement for it. (As an addition it would have been good but by itself it lacks)
I still support this game fully and enjoy it immensely and will continue down the road to where the path may lead, but I worry that some of these "potholes" in the road might have damaged something. I hope not... but there is this feeling of worry.
NCSoft, developers, Red-Names and all involved, thank you for all your hard work, but please stop the appearance of deterioration.
Dang it...Well, If your taking away the comic...maybe you could start sending out city of heroes t-shirts through the mail? That would be a nice compensation!
Seriously though, this does make me sad, what little reading i do gets taken away. I guess i will just have to focus in on a friends stories, so i dont just forget how to read all together.
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Cryptic starts working with Marvel.
<two-thirds of a year goes by>
Cryptic shuts down its own comic.
Uhhhh, somebody want to pop a quick "In no way was this decision influenced by Cryptic's partnership with Marvel Comics" in there? I'm feeling a tad paranoid today and could use the comfort disclaimer.
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Fixed that for you. Seriously, you think the two are in any way related?
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I guess all the people that never liked the comic just can't be bothered to post in this thread. So I will! I thought that the comic was a waste of time and paper from the beginning. It rarely had any resemblance to what the game was about, and when it turned from original characters to focus on signature characters I really lost interest. I don't usually ask for much from my comic books but even when I read it for free as a pdf I felt like I had wasted money. If the money for making this came out of our subscription fees and that money now becomes available to pay for something I can enjoy, like more game content, then I'm happy.
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I actually agree with you on this one Fred. I always felt the living game and adventures were much more vibrant, and no matter what they did in the comic it felt pale. As a supplement it was just never enough to sustain my interest. It always felt out of pace with the game I was playing.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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No, Sexy Jay wasn't working on it (in all likeliness). Nor were the other Red Names, I'd bet. Those are not, however, the entire staff of Cryptic or NCSoft. There are more. Many more. Gaggles more, I'd wager.
The inner workings of this company, such as any company, are too complex to judge solely on what we see on the outside.
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Yes well...I seriously doubt Cryptic had many/any one working on the comic...they're a game company and wouldn't hire a comic writer or artist, as said Manticore (whose job doesn't seem to be that vital to begin with in the dev end ) was essentially adding dialog to what was already supposedly fleshed out in the story bible...
Plus if they'd kept with the comic maybe even the original characters they created early on, they could have hired someone to do the comic and paid these people out of the profits even if it meant a minimal profit...I doubt any money they save from this will come back to us ever...just like NC soft cut those jobs and didn't cut our subscription cost. They'll probably use the money they save (if there was any) to work on Marvel Universe.
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I'd like to contend that they do. The makers of this game and the community coordinators have been working on multiple projects, including the City Scoop and the PvPEC.
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You don't have to care about the community to throw them a bone. City Scoop is a half chewed bone. Copy and Paste a community member's work then post it (apparently judging by the months it took to get them to post a pdf of issues 17 an 18 posting is an arduous task in and of itself).
And the PvPEC is more for their benefit. PvP is far from popular in CoH. There's still alot of work to be done and they made some very basic bad calls regarding PvP. They continue to neglect the Arena which if improved would get me into PvP and I hate PvP most of the time. But rather than admit that they wasted alot of time and money created PvP content that is barely utilized (even after a majority of the community was saying they had no interest in PvP prior to implementation) they're trying to desperately recruit people for PvP. Best of both worlds, make it look like they care AND cover up their mistake.
Apparently Community Coordinator jobs mean posting on the Forums and little else. Maybe once every few months post a couple PDFs to the site and when new issues arise or news post about that on the site...though important polls like melee powerset polls currently going on aren't even mentioned on the front page...
I could do a better job and probably for less than he's getting paid.
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Less web involvement = NOT GOOD
Comic was free then we had to pay = NOT GOOD
Comic was monthly then every 2 months = NOT GOOD
Comic is gone = NOT GOOD (even though NCSoft had little to do with the comics it still reflects on NCSoft et al)
Sponsered events with cameos by States et all now only occur on test server = NOT GOOD (I play CoX not CoXTEST)
Regular issue updates to game = NORMAL (we were given this already with game launch)
Loss of some regular Red-Names to other projects = NOT GOOD (Not saying anything bad about present Red-Names)
Long outstanding bugs ignored in preference to rushing new issue release = NOT GOOD
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1) Once the new Community staff was in place and up to speed, they've been consistently adding more and doing more both on the web and ingame.
2) the comic declined for one reason: PEOPLE WEREN'T READING IT! So to counter points 2-4 I say
Keeping a Comic that has been a consistent money sink for nearly two years= NOT GOOD
5) I saw Ghost Widow on Pinnacle last week. I know more events have been on Test, but that's because it's easier to manage for everyone involved. There were so many instances of Pocket D that got left out at the 2nd year bash it's silly.
6) I have no idea what you're saying here.
7) Staffers come, staffers go. This is normal in every industry. This is not the 1960's
8) Some long standing bugs are still bugs, but I can think of a few that have been fixed.
9) the A-List and B-List thing? No idea what you're saying again. CoH/V are the same game. That's probably one other reason why the comic was cancelled. It meant little or nothing to people playing the Villain game. As for the Marvel game, that will be fortunate to make it live before the next decade. A game that isn't even out of concept art in terms of public exposure is not knocking a living game off any lists.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I could do a better job and probably for less than he's getting paid.
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Thanks for making me laugh. The comment was stupid enough to drop my IQ a few points, but it made me laugh.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
So, with this thread chock full of conspiracy theories, here's mine:
How long till Marvel "acquires" the rights to CoH/CoV?
Actually Lemur Lad it's entirely possible, even two thirds of a year later, that they ARE related. You don't seem to understand that for them to shut down their own comic they probably had to wait and not renew any agreements with Top Cow which I believe they said initially would have a 20 issue run or was a short term agreement to see if things worked out between the two companies.
So it's entirely possible, in order to avoid legal issues, that they had to wait 8 months. Not to mention they also could have been working on a deal with marvel and didn't have it set so they didn't want to cancel the top cow one til they had a set agreement with marvel...
I dunno if that's what happened but if it's entirely possible that they're related events...
1: We have people on this forum that are awesome writers, including some professionals. We as fans already have 'permission' to do fanfic.
2: We have talented artists here, including some professionals. We as fans already have permission to do fan art.
3: We have Ex-Libris, who has already shown initiative and ability to turn fan organizations (such as the PvPEC) into staff-supported offerings.
4: Sean Fish may be moving on to more internal writing projects, but he still may be able to act as editor and prevent egregious gameworld errors from entering the books.
5: The City Scoop is already a fan-created forum-downloadable pdf.
6: What are we waiting for? Looks like all we need now are for comics to start getting submitted.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
*deep breath*
DAMMIT!
*sigh*
I liked the comic. Yeah, it was rocky at times (as many critiquing 17 & 18 can agree, myself included), but I still liked reading about the super powered trials and tribulations of those who are "leading" us and gave us the opportunity to "stomp through their yard" as it were.
*/em salute*
Fare thee well, City of Heroes comic. May we see another form of you in the future. For now, we shall bask in the improved effort toward content.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.