Discussion: End of Top Cow CoH Comic
By
adathebloody,
Posted on: 2007-05-24 15:38 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
I am very sad to see the comics come to an end. I realy enjoyed them and was happy to see Top Cow take them up. I thought they were getting good too and was actualy looking forward to the next issue. I hope that one day they bring it back but won't hold my breath. Thank U for the few issues U gave us and many props to all who worked on them.
SOOG!
@Pyron 2.0 www.HoDLiberty.guildportals.com
Ok I will say the comic got much better when Top Cow started working on it. I have the greatest respect for those involved on the project I can't thank you enough for the comic tie-in you know your fans well enough to give us a 2nd outlet for content. I have been reading comics for years. thank you.
Are there any plans to relace the rest of the comics in a TPB format?
I still think Cryptic Studios threw away a creative gold mine in what they could've done with the comics. They had a perfect opportunity to synchronize comic book events with game events and for the most part, they threw that opportunity out the window. The main reason they didn't turn enough of a profit from the comics themselves was because they made them available for free download on their website (though one could arguably say the tone, outside of Hickman's arc, didn't do justice to the game, so making it free was the only way to get people to read it).
All in all, I think the reason the comic series project "failed" was because important people involved in the process didn't care whether or not it failed in the first place. There was a lot of potential there. Hell, the Top Cow run was the primary reason I got into playing City of Heroes. Not because I thought the comics were super awesome, but because I saw the massive potential of the characters involved in any number of mediums, especially the one on which the game is, itself, based.
I'm not wildly tossing out vitriolic comments to deal with the loss of what I believe was a great opportunity for the City of Heroes world, I'm just saying the things that ring true to me (or using more expected terminology: "calling it how I sees it"). From all that I've read about attitude toward the comics, including statements like (not exact quote) "we view the comics more like an alternate universe to the City of Heroes game," it seems like none of the higher-ups really cared much about the status, impact or worth of the comics in connection to the game's world at any point. If they put care and effort into ensuring the quality of the comics and making them meaningful to the City of Heroes world, it would actually enhance both the story and the game-playing experience. Part of the fun in playing a "Spiderman" game is knowing what Spiderman is like, being able to refer back to past treatments of the character, being able to get in Peter Parker's head, getting to live in his world. You know he's fictional, you know the characters are fictional along with the villains, but it means something because of how immensely detailed this world is in ways that background filler will never do justice.
I apologize if this comes off rude, offensive or hurtful in some way, but this is how it looks from where I stand. Like a newborn babe, the comics had the potential to be any number of things to the CoX world. Instead, it was cut short before most any of that potential could be realized.
It saddens me, but these things happen.
If I had my druthers, and I never do, I'd like to see the CoH comic keep existing at least as an online comic (though I'm a paper man myself). I think I'd do it as a mix of established game characters and newbies, throwing in as much player content as possible (and certainly with a fairly extensive section for fan art and fiction). Stories would fluctuate between arcs and single-issue tales.
If the folks at Cryptic ever decide to bring it back in some form, there are plenty of people who would VOLUNTEER their time and efforts to work on it (I certainly would).
Goodbye, CoH comic...aside from a bit of spending money, you allowed me to meet a lot of great folks here on the boards, and that's been the best part.
Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe
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Instead of cancelling altogether, we could just go back to Blue King...
That comic may not have had all the dramatic flair, but it was at least something CoX players could identify with. Which was the whole point. I miss it. Top Cow's comic has been interesting, but reading through its run leaves a feeling of disjointed wierdness. I would rather have the characters and writing Blue King put forth, than the sarcastic and downright irresponsible ones Top Cow did.
Maybe with the savings in money from going back to Blue King, we could keep our comic.
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Much seconded-age of this from me. I MUCH prefered the BK run to the TC one. The art was consistant, it told a long story arc, and had likable characters we could identify with. To put it bluntly, Statesman is an [censored] and Manticore need to stop muttering to himself 'I'm the [censored] Manticore!'.
I haven't had much time to flesh this idea out, but I want to get it out there before I lose my nerve...
What about making a webcomic?
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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What about making a webcomic?
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Are you talking fan-based, or 'Officially' based? If you want official, I think you've already gotten your answer just by seeing that they are canceling the comic. However, if you are talking about all of the talently-inclined that are reading this putting together a website and showcasing their own and other people's Cities fiction, art, and so forth, you might be onto something.
'Didn't anyone proofread this $#!tty game before they released it!?' -James, The Angry Video Game Nerd reviewing 'Double Dragon III'
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What about making a webcomic?
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Are you talking fan-based, or 'Officially' based? If you want official, I think you've already gotten your answer just by seeing that they are canceling the comic. However, if you are talking about all of the talently-inclined that are reading this putting together a website and showcasing their own and other people's Cities fiction, art, and so forth, you might be onto something.
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Isn't that what the comic competition is about? See Here I think they have over 300 hundred entries. Take the best 48 and post them every month and you are covered for 4 years at no cost. BIG WHOOP!
Wow, interesting thread with many good comments. Let me cite some:
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However, when we evaluate the production and distribution of the Comic, our current feeling is that the needed time and energy can be more wisely spent and net a more direct impact to the game. --Lighthouse
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I agree. Whatever resources were going to the comic should be redirected to the game. 17 and 18 left me no doubt that the sheet needs to be pulled up over the face of this project.
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I frankly don't feel that the two "support of quality player initiatives" features or more contests are in any way compensation for the lack of something that was billed as a feature of the game that'd be part of our subscription. -Eisregen
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A fair enough point, but the comic stinks. A free stinking comic is not worth the money it takes to produce it, and if they can put that effort into the game, that would be the way to go, I think.
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While the comics were nice and all, until The Cyrus Thompson Center is built in King's Row, they will remain seperate from the game; thus meaningless. -- Czar_Bal
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It would be really nice to have that in-game.
But look how long it took to get the Trainer stores in KR. Still, I would love to see it.
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I'm gonna miss this comic.
I mean, without it, how would we ever have found out that the canon/in-game Statesman is such a collossal jerk?
--Megajoule
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This is the biggest reason to end the comic. A character depicted as extremely selfless and noble in the official history comes off as an extreme, arbitrary, inflexible spittle-flinging jerk time and time again. And nobody else comes off as a very attractive personality at all. And as I said once before, just to make sure we got the point, Ms. Liberty says to Statesman (who is also her grandfather), "Bite me."
Who needs that??
It is not to say that there were no enjoyable moments in the comic, just that the overall product was extremely disappointing to aggravating. I will not miss it much at all.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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What about making a webcomic?
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Are you talking fan-based, or 'Officially' based? If you want official, I think you've already gotten your answer just by seeing that they are canceling the comic. However, if you are talking about all of the talently-inclined that are reading this putting together a website and showcasing their own and other people's Cities fiction, art, and so forth, you might be onto something.
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Isn't that what the comic competition is about? See Here I think they have over 300 hundred entries. Take the best 48 and post them every month and you are covered for 4 years at no cost. BIG WHOOP!
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Yeah, but making a comic from screenshots takes a lot of time and coordination (both from the player and when trying to organize a whole crew of player characters together). Not to mention you wind up fairly limited in what you can portray.
Still, the fanmade project would be topnotch... Maybe have it go alongside/within the City Scoop... Like I said, I didn't really think this through, and I'm in a bit too stressful a situation to really flesh it out right now.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Hmmmm i wonder whats going to go next??? =P
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We have a great many fledgling (and not so fledgling) artists here, some of which I'm sure would love a wider audience than the art forums. Why not toss in an offer to publish people's actual comics as downloadable PDFs through the main website as part of an 'official' anthology? As a derivative work of COH, it should be nicely covered by the EULA's 'non-exclusive rights' clause. That way you could at least claim there'd still be a COH comic.
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I will make an entire comic devoted to Statesman on the can, or "Claiming the Throne of Zeus" as he calls it.
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When can we expect this? I'll be looking forward to it, myself.
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
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Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.
I always loved this comic.
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Same here...
Yay! I can think of only one comic whose cancellation brings me more joy. The TC comic is the only thing in three years of playing CoH/CoV that's ever made me consider canceling my account.
I'd make some statement like "Bring back Blue King!" or such, except thanks to the My Comic Book Creator software, I don't think there's a market for official CoH/CoV comics. It's too easy for us players to make our own comics of our own adventures now.
@Utilitarian - Guardian/Tech Blst/20
Parity - Guardian/Nat Tnkr/21
Diana Drake - Infinity/Magi Scr/32
Doctor Developer - Virtue/Tech MM/22
Lady Lawful - Infinity/Magi Tnkr/20
Oh hell.
I just got into the comics and was actually enjoying them. It's true, there was variation in the artwork style and writing, but I still liked them. I think the interest in the comic is there, but that interest does not translate into dollar signs. I doubt there was ever a profit to be had, and now they can no longer justify the expense involved. And that is truly unfortunate. This is a sad announcement.
I swear, if I could draw, I'd make my own dang comic. It would be a Vindicators comic. Everybody loves an underdog, and a team composed of "sidekicks" has an undeniable charm. 
It would be heavy on the Minx, with a dash of Infernal, peppered with Ms. Liberty and seasoned with Swan. Signature heroes may pop in every now and then, but generally only in an advisory role.
Now I just need someone to write/pencil/ink/color/produce/pay for it. Get to work, people! 
Quote:
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"I don't want it to appear that I'm willing to settle for anything. No-one likes a zombie without standards." -UnknownSubject |
Well, for any budding MMO developer who wants to do something similar, here's a few suggestions:
1. Pick a way to tell a story, and stick with it. I don't mean ONLY from, say, Ajax or Manticore's POV - but is it mostly going to be from the Big Cheese POV or that of a character a player can relate to? While switching from one to another on occasion can be very fun and interesting, part of the reason I really liked Blue King was that it wasn't from the Statesview.
2. Edit. Make sure it's sticking to what's going on in game, at least backstory wise. What was up with the Khelds? Nova's not a normal form, and where'd that spaceship come from?
3. Stick with artists. Blue King did this, somewhat... the Top Cow run? You never knew from one issue to another what it'd look like. It went from "Wow, that looks good" to "Did they forget to add noses, or did they just shift those down to add to the chest?"
4. Make a schedule and *Stick to it.* This BS with the last two issues being *months* after the paper comic was ridiculous. And if you look at the FTP site, barring the first "block" that was all uploaded at once - it's all over the place, from faster-than-montly to nearly quarterly. That goes *doubly* true for a paper version.
5. Decide what you want out of it and *stick with it.* Is it marketing? Is it another way of getting news out? Is it paper or PDF?
6. RIDE HERD on the people making it... see the point about the schedules. I don't care if you're a new company or Blizzard of Warcraft - it's a business, treat it like part of one, don't get walked on like seemed to happen with the comic. That's what lawyers and contracts (and penalties) are for.
The comic went from something fun - and honestly something that could be (somewhat) depended on - to a joke. I don't mean in terms of artwork or story, I mean in delivery and quality. The comic went from potential - something to keep people into the game, to drive the story, to show little-seen bits of lore - to "poof."
... as can be said about the RPG, binder and CCG. If you're going to do something, dont' do it half-[censored]. Stick with it, let those you contract to work with know you're sticking with it and will be on their [censored] if they don't. Show some actual *drive* behind your product's spinoffs if you're going to do them!
In my humble and totally unbiased opinion they went the completely wrong direction with the comic.
Granted once Manticore started writting it it became fantastic, but before then the best stuff was the Apex/War Witch stuff.
Why? 'cause that showed the game we played. What the comic should have been was story arcs in the game put out in comic form.
The story arcs are fantastic in this game, but are only small blurbs of text. They deserve so much more.
Had they done that, had people who picked up the book gone "OH hey I did that mish, oh snap how do these guys handle it?", had that happened I guarontee you this comic would not be failing.
And as for all the conspiriecy theories about marvel shutting down the CoH comic, personally I feel its the same way as the reason we don't get to see the rikti war novel. Nobody bought it. Nobody bought the comic, so away it goes. Nobody bought the novels, so we don't get a third (I bought all the comics and the novels so I get to be an expert )
JFS
-The Legendary J-Man-
I'm a trained literary critic, with an MA in Popular Culture. I think giving my professional opinion about the comics would be... unwise.
Still: 5 stars for the cancellation!
=p
Linna
Matt Miller: The Patron Powers are stronger and more powerful than the �equivalent� powers in City of Heroes (the Ancillary Power Pools), because there is less diversification and the fact that Patron choices are permanent alterations to your character.
Comics, much better comics than the CoH comic, get cancelled all the time. The news that the comic is being cancelled is less shocking to me than the times I'd go into my Local Comic Shop on Wednesday and see that it was still being made. It's not very good. We all seriously need to accept this.
Do I think this should be the end of the comic? No. Do I feel that they should go back to the Blue King style? Oh lord, please no! That comic was horrible as well.
As a (starving) comic writer/artist myself, I would love to see my favorite game translated into a good, and commercially viable comic book. I hope that day comes soon, but neither the Top Cow nor the Blue King runs succeeded at that.
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I mean, without it, how would we ever have found out that the canon/in-game Statesman is such a collossal jerk?
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You haven't paid much attention to some of the posts made by Jack "Statesman" Emmert then have you?
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BaZing!
P.S. Couldn't agree with you more
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And as far as their other initiatives that, frankly, they've wasted money on, or that they've given an ADHD, "OK, we're bored with it now" attitude with -
Remember the COH RPG? No, I don't remember seeing it in stores either. I did see a PDF of it once, but I never remember seeing it in stores despite their hype of it. Wait, the PDF was a quickstart pack which typically isnt' the full book... which was, as far as I can tell, never finished. (Last update 6/5/06, and it's not listed in their store.)
How about that trading card game! Wait, I think I saw three packs on clearance a year and a half ago.
Yay for the Prima binder... that they dropped after the issue 7 update. After it was released for issue 6.
To this we can now add the end of the second publisher's comic run!
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The CoH RPG not coming out isn't Cryptic's fault (well other than they chose the wrong RPG publisher to do it), it's the company (Eden Studios) that has failed to deliver the RPG. Eden Studios is a small company that never has been all that good at putting out their games quickly. This is a problem that many RPG companies have unless it company is one of the big ones which have the resources to produce product on a consistent basis. Most RPG companies are run by 2 or 3 people who have real jobs to pay their bills and the RPG company is just a hobby. Hell even some of the big companies are 3 or 4 person companies staffed by people who have to have real jobs in order to make a living wage. Don't blame Cryptic for the failings of the RPG company. They licensed the rights to a company to do the RPG and after that it's in the RPG company's hands. Depending on how the licensing agreement was phrased Cryptic probably has little to no control over the RPG other than telling Eden Studios "hey why don't you hurry up and put the game out already?" or perhaps pulling the licence away from them and selling it to someone else. From the sounds of it Eden Studios hit some money problems which delayed the printing of their new products and once (if) they can afford to, they will send their stuff to the printers. It costs a lot of money for a company to publish their works and if they don't have the money to do it, they can't do it.
Was it a mistake for Cryptic to go with Eden Studios instead of a bigger, more reliable company? In retrospect sure looks like it. In fact at the time I was hoping they had sold the rights to the RPG game to AEG since I like AEG's RPG systems. But then again AEG's RPG lines hit a bit a snag the past couple of years as well so who knows if they could have done much with the COH RPG. But I don't know what sort of deals Cryptic had available to them. So perhaps Eden Studios gave them the best offer, or perhaps they just liked Eden's existing products and thought they would produce a good COH RPG.
Besides other than a small percentage of the COH player base, I don't think that many people were all that interested in the COH RPG anyways. It was probably doomed to fail from the get go. Or at best have moderate sales (and in the RPG industry moderate sales are shockingly low). Licensed RPGs like this rarely do that well anyways, and usually have one or two books put out and fade into oblivion within 6 to 12 months. See The Buffy RPG, Red Dwarf, Army of Darkness, the first Babylon 5 RPG (although that one was semi successful in that it hung on for 2 years and had a handful of supplements before it went under) and so on.
As for the CCG. Too many people look at the success of the Magic the Gathering, Yukio and Pokemon CCG's and think that if a CCG doesn't last for 6+ years it was a bomb. Other than the huge breakout CCG's, most of them have a very short life span. The main set comes out, it sells well for a month or two, then people move on. One expansion pack comes out and the game is boosted for another month or so then it disappears again. Unless it's one of those rare breakout CCG's like Magic, or Vs, ALL CCG's barely last a year and you will see them filling up bargain bins within a year of them coming out. That's the normal life span of a CCG. The COH CCG did moderately well, it sold well for the first few months it came out, then dropped away. Standard stuff. In fact I think it did extremely well all things considered. First off it wasn't that great of a CCG, it had a somewhat interesting game mechanics but the mechanics didn't really mesh well with the way CCG's are sold (booster packs didn't really support the power set system and it be came clear early on that buying booster pack resulted in more cards you couldn't use than could use). It was really set up as a CCG that you buy one or two starter packs and one or two boosters and that's it. But the big thing it had going against it was it's timing. The COH CCG came out about the same time VS came out, and VS was a bonafide hit. It was one of those rare breakout CCG's. Vs was a much better played game, and it's booster packs and expansion packs supported the game mechanics much better. Plus it was supported by a very strong tournament scene. COH had no tournament scene and no real support for it. It was just put out on the shelves and the players would buy it but had no real organized areas to play it. It was a CCG made for the casual gamer not the hard core CCG player. So it had casual sales. It likely made some money for AEG and Cryptic but not a lot, which was probably the goal.
As for the comic book. I'm surprised that it was still running. The first run was a joke, both in quality and in terms of financially supporting itself. The switch to Top Cow produced a much better quality of comic but a comic that costs a lot more to produce. When they stopped shipping it out to players for free (which was a good choice since I'm sure it was costing a LOT of money to do that, there's a reason why DC and Marvel charge around $5 for their comics it's expensive to produce a comic book) the COH community for the most part stopped caring about the comic. It wasn't good enough for most people playing COH to go out and buy it and non COH certainly didn't give a crap about it either. So Cryptic was paying Top Cow to hire professionals to produce a comic book that wasn't selling well. Eventually a company has got to say "hey this costs a lot of money to produce and we aren't getting much back for it". Both Cryptic and Top Cow were probably losing money on it. (or perhaps Cryptic was covering Top Cow's losses). The fact that they stuck with the comic for as long as they did is a testament to how much they care about what was certainly a small portion of their fan base.
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So, while the City of Heroes comic comes to a close, that in no way diminishes the energy we are devoting to maintaining and enriching the City of Heroes experience! We look forward to your support and involvement as we work to make our many community goals a reality!
Yours truly,
Alex "Lighthouse" von Minden
Online Community Manager
City of Heroes / City of Villains
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Well, that's a shame; I will be very sorry to see it go.
On the up side, it will help with Admin credibility to have it go away; originally, the CoH comic was supposed to be a perk of our monthly fees, then one day "oh, gee, sorry, if you want the comic, that's an additional charge".
This is a very basic marketing mistake - and a very bad one - that most young companies make; over-promising then finding that the reality of business means they will be under-delivering.
So if Cryptic is learning the hard way, at least they are learning.
Ave, atque, vale to the Top Cow comic; we hardly knew ye...
Dasher
HELP SAVE THIS GAME!
If we can save this game, I promise I will never complain about Travel Power Suppression again! You have my word on it!
"The customer is always right."
I stopped caring about the Comic, as soon as they stopped sending them to my house.
Reading them in book form and in PDF form are two VERY different things.
First let me say, I am sorry to see the comic go. Being a writer and an artist myself, I am sorry to see a hard copy medium of expression for the game go by the wayside. I always thought the cover art for the comic book was great, but was always disappointed by the less talented and detailed illustrations inside, no matter who was doing them. IMHO, the cover should be an example of whats inside, not merely a sales ploy, espcially since the comic book is offered online and there is no reason for anyone to buy the hard copy except for those who truly enjoy the art form.
Is the upcoming affiliation with Marvel going to endow us with another comic book? Im sure we'll be the last to know. But again, IMHO, it could hardly be a bad thing.
Just wanted to say sad to see the comic go. Tought it started off slow but past couple of issues has been pretty good.