[ QUOTE ]
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1. Well over half of all MMO players worldwide are playing on a server with open non-consensual PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
-- so what? On that basis CoH should shut down because more people are playing WoW so obviously WoW is what people like and CoH isn't. Or you could conclude that CoH is not WoW or any other game and doesn't need to try to include their features.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or you could conclude that its generally a smart idea to incorporate the features that make sense in your product that your more successful rivals have in their's. Now, this doesn't mean a product should give up its unique features, but we aren't talking about adding Orc, Elves, and Shamans, we're talking about adding (actually having since its already been added) a kind of play that fits in perfectly to the milieu of this one. MMO's need to attract the widest possible slice of the demographic that they can attract to remain in business because they are tremendously expensive to develop, run, and maintain. Not adding a popular play style is risky, of course it needs to be done well. From the point of view of impacting the existing game PvP was added here with a minimum of disruption. All PvP occurs in either instanced Arena fights or clearly marked (and completely avoidable) PvP zones.
What you're suggesting is akin to a drug store deciding not to carry an item that some people feel uncomfortable about, say condoms or birth control pills. There are some customers who are (or were) very opposed to such things on moral grounds, but today there are very few drug stores that don't sell those items because they attract a different part of the demographic and if done properly doesn't irritate people who aren't comfortable with those items so badly they leave.
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2. Well over 90% of all MMO players are playing a game that allows PvP.
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-- Great, I bet 99% of all MMO players are playing a game that alows PvE. So pve wins. Thank you, tip your waiter.
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You know, this _might_ be a little more interesting if you bothered to actually debate on merit rather than try to come up one liners. You will never find a post of mine that recommends that this game get rid of PvE, that would be stupid. Just as not including PvP would have been stupid as well, since amazingly you can have _both_ in the same game.
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3. There are more players playing pure PvP games (including FPS and RTS games) than all MMO's combined.
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-- great, so there is no need for pvp in mmo's. The other games exist, do it better and have the audiences for them. Trying to recreate the wheel as an oval is pretty dumb.
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There is a reason the PvP'ers are attracted to this game. It has the single best game engine for high speed PvP in the entire MMO marketplace. This is not a case of making an oval wheel, its a case of taking the square wheels off the Maserati. If somethings can be addressed this game could be the very best PvP game on the market, it has that much potential. I've been playing PvP games online since Diablo 1 and I've never seen another one that was close.
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thank you for pointing out that pve is more popular than pvp, that pvp is already provided in games for any who want to play it, and that CoH either needs to provide a different experience than WoW or simply close shop.
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PvE isn't more popular that PvP, I've provided the numbers that demonstrate quite well that among gamers (note that is not just MMO gamers) PvP is far more popular than PvE. Its also substantially popular among pure MMO gamers.
I guess the thing that puzzles me about your attitude on this is, where do you expect new CoX players to come from? A very (less than .3%) of new MMO players report that their first game was an MMO. That means that the potential base is the gamer demongraphic, in which PvP is very popular. We know from the numbers that CoX had prior to the release of CoV what the PvE only content expansions did for their numbers, ie not much. While the Arena was released back in I4, it was so limited (and is still significantly buggy) that its impact was slight.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
[ QUOTE ]
PVP pays the bills. PVE does not.
[/ QUOTE ]
The simple arguement the you must engage in PVE from level one negates that opinion. That, of course, is what it is. An opinion. Now here's mine.
Look at what we have now. We have a game with built in aspects of PvP and PvE and various other little ditties to keep us occupied, like badges, crafting, selling, roleplaying, costume creation, and other general goofiness. Personally I feel that a balance of everything PvE and PvP is what's going to keep this game alive. I'm not going to sit here and marginalzie PvP simply because I don't enjoy it as much as you do. I have engaged in PvP before and am quite capable of understanding the fact that if I enter a PvP zone, I will be attacked. However not agreeing with you on the fact that only PvP is the future of this game does not mean I'm in the anti-PvP crowd.
And please don't take this the wrong way, but I'd rather see the City of X franchise go down in flames trying to put out a balanced MMO that people with different tastes can enjoy then begin to see a focus on one thing exclusively that not everyone enjoys.
And that is my opinion.
@Quarktease
The Unofficial Official of Nothing Official
Proud member of Nites of Darkness/Shut Your Pie Hole
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I feel that a balance of everything PvE and PvP is what's going to keep this game alive. I'm not going to sit here and marginalzie PvP simply because I don't enjoy it as much as you do.
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One of the most reasonable stances I've seen so far, bravo!
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
[ QUOTE ]
Here are some facts, since people seem to be good at ignoring them:
1. Well over half of all MMO players worldwide are playing on a server with open non-consensual PvP.
2. Well over 90% of all MMO players are playing a game that allows PvP.
3. There are more players playing pure PvP games (including FPS and RTS games) than all MMO's combined.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok. But then you jump to ...
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Having a good PvP implementation is integral to having a successful MMO in the current gaming market. This is a demonstrable fact.
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No. This is opinion.
The idea that because X has Y and X has massive numbers, we should add Y so we can have massive numbers is a mistake.
If Cryptic want to bring in the numbers they need to do the hard thing and add something DIFFERENT to the game to distinguish it from the rest not add the same features to make it a clone.
"Same" won't cut it!
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Having a good PvP implementation is integral to having a successful MMO in the current gaming market. This is a demonstrable fact.
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No. This is opinion.
The idea that because X has Y and X has massive numbers, we should add Y so we can have massive numbers is a mistake.
If Cryptic want to bring in the numbers they need to do the hard thing and add something DIFFERENT to the game to distinguish it from the rest not add the same features to make it a clone.
"Same" won't cut it!
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"Same" is a non sequitor here, CoX with PvP is _NOT_ the same as WoW with PvP, Guild Wars with PvP, Lineage 1&2 with PvP, etc, etc, etc.
CoX is (at present) the only hero/comic themed MMO on the market and having PvP will not in any, shape, or form make it the same as other games. Even fantasy themed games that include PvP have tremendous differences, L2 is vastly different from WoW and both are very different animals from GW.
Allow me to present it this way, no one has figured out a way to make a successful MMO that neglects PvP in the current market space. That doesn't mean that someone won't or can't, but PvP as a feature of a MMO, is one of the current requirements for success, just as a good PvE implementation is. Interestingly, we are actually seeing the market experiment in the other direction, to see if PvP only MMO's can succeed but this very speculative right now. We know that there are no succesful PvE only MMO's on the market, outside of a very small number of children focused games (Toontown etc) In addition, its also demonstrable that all of the most successful MMO's have devoted significant resources to PvP including development, dedicated servers/instances, and marketing.
Its not a matter of changing the flavor of a game, its a matter of having a required feature. Having a good PvP implementation is no more optional than a TV manufacturer choosing not produce HDTV sets because they think keeping to the SD format only, will keep them unique.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
Quark, i agree with ur post.
Facts are, if you choose not to engage in PvP, FOR THE MOST PART, you dont necessarily have to in order to have a fully immersive and enjoyable experience. There is something for most all tastes.
My experience has been that PvP gets the adrenaline pumping, is a bit addictive, and can be frustrating. Thats PvP in a nutshell, u are pitted against other players, not AI PvE robots, and that tends to get peeps down when they are defeated. IF some of the PvP content was added into PvE zones, with the high lvl rewards and consequences, i am sure the Non-PvPrs would be happy, and there would be a more specific PvP base that would take advantage of the PvP zones for the thrill of PvP-ing.
These posts would probably Also become Obsolete...yay?
Again, my 2 cents. I dont think you can move forward, including one thing to the exclusion of another, especially when both are vital ingredients for success.
Now, lets get ABSORPTION incorporated as a Melee Defensive Pwr set!!! ---Charges headlong to the Melee pwr set thread--
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Its not a matter of changing the flavor of a game, its a matter of having a required feature. Having a good PvP implementation is no more optional than a TV manufacturer choosing not produce HDTV sets because they think keeping to the SD format only, will keep them unique.
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Again you are jumping to a conclusion.
This MMO was very successful without any form of PvP. That hasn't changed jst because people use a different number to judge success now that WoW has whatever Millions. More to the point PvP has been added to this MMO without making any difference to the numbers.
If you can come up with suggestions to make PvP in this game more interesting then "Great" but I think any big developer effort would be better placed elsewhere.
At 3 years of age the only thing thats going to pull in new numbers is something "NEW" and "DIFFERENT"
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
The game was successful from the start due to the gimmick, the audience that it appeals/appealed to. PvP can be a big draw if it is promoted and maintained - unfortunately, the pvp in this game hasn't received either of the two, promotion or maintenance - aside from promotion done by the playerbase.
[ QUOTE ]
The game was successful from the start due to the gimmick, the audience that it appeals/appealed to. PvP can be a big draw if it is promoted and maintained - unfortunately, the pvp in this game hasn't received either of the two, promotion or maintenance - aside from promotion done by the playerbase.
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QFT.
I will probably never be more than mediocre in an Arena setting but I have been having lots of fun in the zones with my Defender/Support toons lately.
This game has an insane PvP engine in whichever format you prefer. That the Devs haven't made some clips of the PvP action (Hey, here's an idea...take snapshots of the high level matches and the zone stuff this coming week...) to advertise the game boggles the mind.
And this is coming from someone is as far from hardcore as Beijing is from Reykjavik.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
[ QUOTE ]
The game was successful from the start due to the gimmick, the audience that it appeals/appealed to. PvP can be a big draw if it is promoted and maintained - unfortunately, the pvp in this game hasn't received either of the two, promotion or maintenance - aside from promotion done by the playerbase.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree that what attracted people to game was that it was gimmick. One of the number one things that people state for coming here are one of these three:
1. Its a superhero game--the only one. That's not a gimmick.
2. It has no pvp (this coming mostly from folks that were burnt out from pvp in other games).
3. It has no crafting or loot grinding. (though strangely now some of those same folks are praising the inventions system. go figure). 
Again, i'm yet to see a PVP only game that sustains itself.
However, a pve game without pvp won't evlove. You cannot have one without the other.
"pvp pays the bills" is an opinion, one that has not been proven true by ANY game on the market so far.
Notice I said so far. 
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Regardless of whether or not it was the first/only Superhero MMO on the market, or is still today - it's still a gimmick. It drew plenty of people that were new to MMOs right in because it had a general relation to comic books and characters they were familiar with.
WoW may not be the first Fantasy MMO, but it still has the Fantasy gimmick. That's the primary reason why I ended up getting this game, though it's not the reason why I've stayed so long, I'm sure the same could be said for a large portion of the playerbase... Save the foreigners on Virtue that no one cares about.
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Again you are jumping to a conclusion.
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No, you're just trying to push one on me that I didn't make. I didn't say that PvP would be the salvation of this game, what I said was that no successful MMO exists today that hasn't implemented PvP and that includes this one. From that fact we can say that without a good PvP implementation the odds are this game won't last, especially given the fact that the niche its had to itself is about to become very competitive.
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This MMO was very successful without any form of PvP. That hasn't changed jst because people use a different number to judge success now that WoW has whatever Millions. More to the point PvP has been added to this MMO without making any difference to the numbers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna be nice, because you seem like you're trying but you have to understand that from a success point of view this and every other MMO, until WoW, on the planet was a flop. MMO's were on the brink of dying a quiet death, not because they don't or didn't make money but because game developers could make more (much more) money doing other kinds of games. Why do you think EA bought Mythic? It sure as hell wasn't because DAoC had been a run away success it was because they saw how successful an MMO could be.
To quote Bruce Sterling,
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"The Age of Competition: May 2002 October 2004
This was a tough period for the MMOG market. While the overall size of the market continued to grow in 2002 and 2003, the competitive picture grew worse. Many MMOGs in development were delayed or outright cancelled. Older games struggled to retain their subscribers, usually shrinking, recovering, and then slowly shrinking again. Most of the new MMOGs that did enter the market in this time period did not achieve their subscription goals, and a few had to shut down operations. While there were a few bright spots Final Fantasy XI, RuneScape, Eve Online, and City of Heroes between May 2002 and May 2003, the market grew by less than 8%, and between January 2004 and October 2004, the market grew by less than 2%. Towards the end of 2004, things were starting to look pretty bleak.
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In short, despite CoX being a success for an MMO it was part of a segment that many analysts, game publishers, and development shops were moving away from.
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If you can come up with suggestions to make PvP in this game more interesting then "Great" but I think any big developer effort would be better placed elsewhere.
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I can turn this around and ask the exact same thing of pure PvE development and add that the development staff have been focused on adding pure (or almost pure) PvE "things" to the game up until I8 and it hasn't done much. Now, any development effort will have to be part of a cost benefit analysis and the type of that content (PvE, PvP, or mixed) will only be part of that decision process. Having said that, we've done PvE for 7 issues, an expansion to both PvE and PvP once (CoV release), and only one (I4) that was mostly PvP. I'd say its probably time to try a few more things on the PvP side.
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At 3 years of age the only thing thats going to pull in new numbers is something "NEW" and "DIFFERENT"
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Really? (To use my TV analogy) What new thing are you going to add that will make people buy your TV's instead of offering HDTV sets? CoX has already got the hardest part of any PvP implementation done, the engine. It has the potential to be the best and fastest PvP experience on the planet. I don't know that the same is true on the PvE side.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
watching that video just made me want to buy the Warhammer game.... massive army pvp looks sweeeeet.
[ QUOTE ]
People have been PvPing since the beginning of time, just ask jesus.
People have also been PvEing since the beginning of time (roleplaying).
[/ QUOTE ]
This thread is full of fail.
PvP in this game is a joke. It was never designed to deal with the complex nature of PvP. You want to see a thoughtful game system designed from the bottom up with PvP in mind? Look at Guild Wars. Otherwise, you'll just continue forcing a half-[censored] product as an end result because you simply cannot change the basic functions of the game at this point.
PvP was always intended in this game. The Arena was talked about when the game still had "fighting stances." However, it was ignored for a long enough time so that the people who would have become interested either left, or moved on to another part of the game.
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Personally I feel that a balance of everything PvE and PvP is what's going to keep this game alive. I'm not going to sit here and marginalzie PvP simply because I don't enjoy it as much as you do.
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One of the most reasonable stances I've seen so far, bravo!
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Word.
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PvP in this game is a joke. It was never designed to deal with the complex nature of PvP. You want to see a thoughtful game system designed from the bottom up with PvP in mind? Look at Guild Wars. Otherwise, you'll just continue forcing a half-[censored] product as an end result because you simply cannot change the basic functions of the game at this point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Simply untrue, I was in the closed testing for GW for a year before its release and I am very aware of the balancing mechanisms in GW. CoX does have some basic issues that GW dodged, ie no hard mezzes and no defense the way that we understand it here. In GW what they call defense is what we would call resistance here. Having said that there isn't anything structural that makes it impossible to achieve balance in this game.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
There hasn't been enough added PvE content in the last few issues to justify a pve only game.
in Asheron's call we had new content monthly, and it generally involved a new quest or something along those lines. in this game, it took several months for issue 8 to come out and to get faultline done up, only to really be for one storyarc that was for a lower level group... and once you finished it, that was it.
issue 9 has a lot, but it's mainly involved around inventions. for actual gameplay, we only got the STF, and that mission does not justify the massive amount of time between i8 and i9. the invention system, while interesting, really does not hold much in this game, because the content does not justify the extra power given by them. there's really nothing besides the STF out there that needs said invention power.
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Regardless of whether or not it was the first/only Superhero MMO on the market, or is still today - it's still a gimmick. It drew plenty of people that were new to MMOs right in because it had a general relation to comic books and characters they were familiar with.
WoW may not be the first Fantasy MMO, but it still has the Fantasy gimmick. That's the primary reason why I ended up getting this game, though it's not the reason why I've stayed so long, I'm sure the same could be said for a large portion of the playerbase... Save the foreigners on Virtue that no one cares about.
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Umm fantasy is the gimmick as its the most used type of MMO on the market. Something not that used (like a superhoro mmo) is a niche. There's difference.
Also I think you underestimate how many people came here for reasons other than it being a superhero mmo.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PvP in this game is a joke. It was never designed to deal with the complex nature of PvP. You want to see a thoughtful game system designed from the bottom up with PvP in mind? Look at Guild Wars. Otherwise, you'll just continue forcing a half-[censored] product as an end result because you simply cannot change the basic functions of the game at this point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Simply untrue, I was in the closed testing for GW for a year before its release and I am very aware of the balancing mechanisms in GW. CoX does have some basic issues that GW dodged, ie no hard mezzes and no defense the way that we understand it here. In GW what they call defense is what we would call resistance here. Having said that there isn't anything structural that makes it impossible to achieve balance in this game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except TL, there has to be a want on the part of the dev team to change things.
That "want" is still lacking unfortunatly. Though THAT is slowly changing.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of whether or not it was the first/only Superhero MMO on the market, or is still today - it's still a gimmick. It drew plenty of people that were new to MMOs right in because it had a general relation to comic books and characters they were familiar with.
WoW may not be the first Fantasy MMO, but it still has the Fantasy gimmick. That's the primary reason why I ended up getting this game, though it's not the reason why I've stayed so long, I'm sure the same could be said for a large portion of the playerbase... Save the foreigners on Virtue that no one cares about.
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm fantasy is the gimmick as its the most used type of MMO on the market. Something not that used (like a superhoro mmo) is a niche. There's difference.
Also I think you underestimate how many people came here for reasons other than it being a superhero mmo.
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, because Statesman developed this game with the intention of only appealing to a small "niche" market, right? Think of how large the comic book industry is, and how many people recognize superheroes and comics today. Wouldn't it make sense for Statesman to try and appeal to that market so that the game would be successful?
And it was, very much so. CoH didn't start out as a "niche" game, and the superhero method of play wasn't "niche" either, it was a gimmick used to appeal to a large audience to bring in the subscribers. The game is "niche" now, but it wasn't when it was first released.
Get off my nuts.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of whether or not it was the first/only Superhero MMO on the market, or is still today - it's still a gimmick. It drew plenty of people that were new to MMOs right in because it had a general relation to comic books and characters they were familiar with.
WoW may not be the first Fantasy MMO, but it still has the Fantasy gimmick. That's the primary reason why I ended up getting this game, though it's not the reason why I've stayed so long, I'm sure the same could be said for a large portion of the playerbase... Save the foreigners on Virtue that no one cares about.
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm fantasy is the gimmick as its the most used type of MMO on the market. Something not that used (like a superhoro mmo) is a niche. There's difference.
Also I think you underestimate how many people came here for reasons other than it being a superhero mmo.
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, because Statesman developed this game with the intention of only appealing to a small "niche" market, right? Think of how large the comic book industry is, and how many people recognize superheroes and comics today. Wouldn't it make sense for Statesman to try and appeal to that market so that the game would be successful?
And it was, very much so. CoH didn't start out as a "niche" game, and the superhero method of play wasn't "niche" either, it was a gimmick used to appeal to a large audience to bring in the subscribers. The game is "niche" now, but it wasn't when it was first released.
Get off my nuts.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whatever Statesmen intended the point is the market is what the market is. And I think you overvalue how many folks read comics AND also play video games and MMOs. Just cause someone likes comics and recognizes superheroes does not in any way shape or form automatically mean they will play an MMo or a video game based on them.
Many came to this game cause they wanted to avoid loot and traditional pvp games. Which explians the vehment opposition to inventions when loot was frist mentioned (though that has died down) and continuous reality that pvp just is not as popular as the pve side with this audience. (though it could well be if the devs supported it more).
How many folks recognize the image of superman? How many folks know what the hell blizzard is or the names of their games? Which genre of MMO has more players? My point is not who everyone likes mmos likes superheroes. If that was the case we should have seen a sudden influx of new players with the rise in popularity of the show Heroes. Yet we haven't have we?
Was always niche. And was not a gimmick. Your argument about superheroes is in direct contradiction to you calling a superhero MMO a gimmick. logic for the loss.
If you don't want discussion on a DISCUSSION forum, take your nuts someplace else.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
ANYWAY....
Back on topic, this game's audience would participate more in pvp more if the devs supported it.
However, pvp can't exist without the pve side. And vice verson.
As TL said a balanced view is that both are needed to maintain a healthy MMO.
The question is how far should the devs go to catering to either side.
I would say equally. Some would disagree.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
People have been PvPing since the beginning of time, just ask jesus.
People have also been PvEing since the beginning of time (roleplaying).