Cross-sever influence transfer?
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2007-03-08 09:32 in The Market and Inventions
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Take out the transfer thing. Let's instead make this something that's being sold to be sold. Why does the person who's willing to pay 5 million have to pay 5 million? Why can't they get the benefit of the bargain?
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Because, you are determining what price you want to pay for something.
If somone really wants to buy a Positron's Rusty Lugnut so they can make an IO from the Cool Like Positron set, they need to determine what they think a good price for it is. If that player decides that 100,000 INF is a fair price, then that's his budget. He can try to find a better price if he wants or he can just lay down his 100,000 on the the first one he finds in the inventory. If the seller happens to have 20 Positron's Rusty Lugnuts, takes the time to list each individually, and values them at about 1,000 each, then score for him.
Like actual auctions (real world and online), you need to invest time in it to get the best deals. At least with this system, you are promised to get a certain quality item; there are no manufacturing defects in Paragon City - every Positron's Rusty Lugnut is as good as the next.
Incidentally, this is similar to the original business model used by priceline.com. Their notion was you name the price and you get what you paid for (within certain parameters). You didn't get to pick certain things about your flight (no specific carriers, for instance), but you could chose where you flew out of and into, how many stops you'd be willing to make, etc. Its a good business model as long as the buyer isn't ignorantly throwing down more money than they really wanted to.
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Player A1 puts up a Level 12 TO for 5,000,000 inf.
Player B1 puts up the same Level 12 TO for 1,000 inf.
Player A2 (trying to transfer funds) offers to buy that level 12 TO for 5,000,000 inf.
Since player B1 wants less, and is obviously trying to move his items faster, his "for sale" is processed first, so he ends up with 5,000,000 inf (minus fees).
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This has been discussed on the Victory Forum, but there are safeguards any player can take to make sure they don't get swindled by jerkweeds trying to make a quick buck.
1) Don't try to transfer too much at once.
2) Use an enhancement or item that is not found at a store (i.e. don't use anything divisible by 5). There are currently over 9000 posibilities to use.
3) Check the store to make sure the enhancement you're trying to swap is NOT offered as an auction currently. I assume there will be tools to do so.
4) List your enhancement and immediately swap characters.
5) Before buying your enhancement, make sure someone hasn't listed a similar enhancement. If there's another listing there, simply cancel your original offering and try again another time.
Common sense will trump scofflaws.
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My Level 4 SO Enhancements will be PERFECT for this! 
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If you have such things, then YES they will be. I deliberately eliminated low levels from my calculations above for DOs and SOs. Level 4 SOs have a very small possibility of existing, but they will be very rare. (The lowest SO I've seen is level 12.)
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I have some lvl 9s about
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Take out the transfer thing. Let's instead make this something that's being sold to be sold. Why does the person who's willing to pay 5 million have to pay 5 million? Why can't they get the benefit of the bargain?
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Because, you are determining what price you want to pay for something.
If somone really wants to buy a Positron's Rusty Lugnut so they can make an IO from the Cool Like Positron set, they need to determine what they think a good price for it is. If that player decides that 100,000 INF is a fair price, then that's his budget. He can try to find a better price if he wants or he can just lay down his 100,000 on the the first one he finds in the inventory. If the seller happens to have 20 Positron's Rusty Lugnuts, takes the time to list each individually, and values them at about 1,000 each, then score for him.
Like actual auctions (real world and online), you need to invest time in it to get the best deals. At least with this system, you are promised to get a certain quality item; there are no manufacturing defects in Paragon City - every Positron's Rusty Lugnut is as good as the next.
Incidentally, this is similar to the original business model used by priceline.com. Their notion was you name the price and you get what you paid for (within certain parameters). You didn't get to pick certain things about your flight (no specific carriers, for instance), but you could chose where you flew out of and into, how many stops you'd be willing to make, etc. Its a good business model as long as the buyer isn't ignorantly throwing down more money than they really wanted to.
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A straight consignment system would be better. You search, you see what everyone is listing their products for and you search out the best bargains.
You don't have to play this silly game. I know how to play the game and how to abuse it, but I'd rather we just have a healthy market. And secrecy doesn't build healthy markets, free information does.
EDIT: You know why I'm so frustrated? Because the devs are going to force us to abuse their system because they never just believe us when we tell them something won't work. 
For the short time I played FFXI, I was able to make money basically standing in one place playing with their auction market. That's not the intention, but the robber barons are going to come out.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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EDIT: You know why I'm so frustrated? Because the devs are going to force us to abuse their system because they never just believe us when we tell them something won't work.
For the short time I played FFXI, I was able to make money basically standing in one place playing with their auction market. That's not the intention, but the robber barons are going to come out.
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I'm optimistic the Devs will get this right, if only because they're reading everything we post here. Plus, I have faith in the elite group of testers they have on Beta now, not to mention the fact that we'll get to 'sploitz the system to hell and back when the Open Beta begins. 
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
I think we're just going to have to disagree on this one EG.
If the market is informed (which they should be if they're looking to drop cash on something), then buyers will get exactly what they want, for what they think its worth, as soon as its available.
Honestly, I suspect most of the people that will be using this system lack SGs or decent Coalitions to trade with.
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Hmmm... trying to understand... how would you reasonably grief/intercept me if I did this:
1. Rich toon on ServerA makes bids on Level 5 ToHitDebuff TOs offering 10 influence each until they're all bought out (at that low price). So, there are no more Level 5 ToHitDebuffs in WWs that are 10 inf or less.
2. Switch to poor toon on ServerB and flood WW's with 10 Level 5 ToHitDebuffs for the asking price of 1 inf* each. Wait and see if anyone's going to buy and resell in order to intercept**. If I get no buys in 10 minutes, then...
3. Switch to rich toon on ServerA and put in three buy orders for Level 5 ToHitDebuffs for 2 inf each.
4. Switch to poor toon and see if I just sold three Level 5 ToHitDebuffs. If yes...
5. Switch to rich toon and put in a buy order for a Level 5 ToHitDebuff for 10 million inf. Since I had seven Level 5 ToHitDebuffs in WWs queue, all at the lowest possible price, no one can sneak another Level 5 ToHitDebuff ahead of me. If someone were to use the buy and resell intercept method, they'd have to know to do it at least seven times in a row in order to intercept. And if they are online and buying up all sorts of lowballed TOs, see**.
*(Adjust the 1 influence to minimum order amount.)
**(And if there are interceptors online, I'll just screw around with them by continually dumping all types of Level 5 enhancements on the market with multiple toons making them mad.)
Of course, this is what I'd do if I had just one account. As it is, I'll dual-box it my two accounts and instantly buy with one toon what the other is selling. So, go ahead with the global ID block.
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This is the best solution I've seen so far. Here's an alternative I thought up before I'd read that far:
Step 1. Find an item noone else is selling.
Step 2. Offer to sell it at a random value slightly higher than what it's valued to. For an item valued at 10K inf, offer it for 10,632 inf.
Step 3. Examine the last 10 transactions and remember what it said.
Step 4. Swap characters.
Step 5. Examine the last 10 transactions to make sure noone's bought your item.
Step 6. Put in a buy order for 10,631 inf.
Step 7. Buy the item for 5M inf.
Explorer 86.67%, Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 46.67%, Killer 6.67%
"When nature calls, I can go right in my suit."
"That part of your suit broke when you fell down the ventilation shaft, remember?"
"I just found out why my socks feel squishy."
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But this selling system keeps prices low by choking suppliers. And that's never healthy.
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I'm not sure about the healthy part, but I have a feeling that first part is a deliberate intention to prevent farmers. (No guarantee it will work, though.)
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
What this all amounts too is that people will feel like they are walking into a casino rather than a consignment shop. Even looking to make the simple transaction, you will be worried about getting somehow screwed either by the system itself, or another player, or the lack of knowledge on how it works and screwing yourself. My thinking...pretend I9 never happened and just hope I10 brings some useable content to the game.
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Plus, I have faith in the elite group of testers they have on Beta now
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This made me LOL.
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Plus, I have faith in the elite group of testers they have on Beta now
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This made me LOL.
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Yeah. heh.
You know what I'm going to stop arguing/whining about this.
Clearly when I9 comes out we'll see who is proven right/wrong.
For me, I'll just stand back, stick to trading with my friends, and watch the fun.
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Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Plus, I have faith in the elite group of testers they have on Beta now
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This made me LOL.
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Yeah. heh.
You know what I'm going to stop arguing/whining about this.
Clearly when I9 comes out we'll see who is proven right/wrong.
For me, I'll just stand back, stick to trading with my friends, and watch the fun.
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Well, the fact that Posi posted as recently as yesterday about an obviously flawed "consignment house" system tells me the group on Test right now (however they were picked) either isn't doing a fabulous testing job (and I don't think anyone would be surprised by that) or maybe they're just not focusing on the mechanics of the selling system yet.
Eh, there'll be plenty of time for the real playerbase to see i9 on Test and cause all sorts of havoc with this system, so maybe we can change it before it goes live.
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I do realize the irony of putting my trust in someone named Super_Villain, however.
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Given that he started off hinting about what he 'might' know, and then blew up at Positron when he revealed how the system actually works, it's a safe bet that he didn't really know anything.
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What this all amounts too is that people will feel like they are walking into a casino rather than a consignment shop. Even looking to make the simple transaction, you will be worried about getting somehow screwed either by the system itself, or another player, or the lack of knowledge on how it works and screwing yourself. My thinking...pretend I9 never happened and just hope I10 brings some useable content to the game.
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You can still make full use of the Inventions system without using the consignment shop. The consignment shop is an optional extra. If you don't like it, don't use it. I plan to use inventions, but I don't plan to use the consignment shop.
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What this all amounts too is that people will feel like they are walking into a casino rather than a consignment shop. Even looking to make the simple transaction, you will be worried about getting somehow screwed either by the system itself, or another player, or the lack of knowledge on how it works and screwing yourself. My thinking...pretend I9 never happened and just hope I10 brings some useable content to the game.
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You can still make full use of the Inventions system without using the consignment shop. The consignment shop is an optional extra. If you don't like it, don't use it. I plan to use inventions, but I don't plan to use the consignment shop.
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You make a excellent point. I see all the confusion, speculation and frustration over one part of I9 and it just kind of turns me off to the whole thing. It would be nice to not have to buy all new enhancements every 5 levels or so. That alone could make the whole thing worth all this grief.
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Plus, I have faith in the elite group of testers they have on Beta now
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This made me LOL.
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Yeah. heh.
You know what I'm going to stop arguing/whining about this.
Clearly when I9 comes out we'll see who is proven right/wrong.
For me, I'll just stand back, stick to trading with my friends, and watch the fun.
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Well, the fact that Posi posted as recently as yesterday about an obviously flawed "consignment house" system tells me the group on Test right now (however they were picked) either isn't doing a fabulous testing job (and I don't think anyone would be surprised by that) or maybe they're just not focusing on the mechanics of the selling system yet.
Eh, there'll be plenty of time for the real playerbase to see i9 on Test and cause all sorts of havoc with this system, so maybe we can change it before it goes live.
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Seriously. Makes me wonder who the hell the got testing this stuff. Chimps? 
EDIT: Either that or their focus is elsewhere. Which is equally bad.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Plus, I have faith in the elite group of testers they have on Beta now
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This made me LOL.
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Yeah. heh.
You know what I'm going to stop arguing/whining about this.
Clearly when I9 comes out we'll see who is proven right/wrong.
For me, I'll just stand back, stick to trading with my friends, and watch the fun.
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Well, the fact that Posi posted as recently as yesterday about an obviously flawed "consignment house" system tells me the group on Test right now (however they were picked) either isn't doing a fabulous testing job (and I don't think anyone would be surprised by that) or maybe they're just not focusing on the mechanics of the selling system yet.
Eh, there'll be plenty of time for the real playerbase to see i9 on Test and cause all sorts of havoc with this system, so maybe we can change it before it goes live.
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Seriously. Makes me wonder who the hell the got testing this stuff. Chimps?
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Actually, Bridger just posted over on the UK forums that it's mostly Cryptic and NCSoft staff and their friends and family. Whether they're chimps or not, I won't weigh in on.
Personal opinion is no, probably not chimps, but YMMV.
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Plus, I have faith in the elite group of testers they have on Beta now
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This made me LOL.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. heh.
You know what I'm going to stop arguing/whining about this.
Clearly when I9 comes out we'll see who is proven right/wrong.
For me, I'll just stand back, stick to trading with my friends, and watch the fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the fact that Posi posted as recently as yesterday about an obviously flawed "consignment house" system tells me the group on Test right now (however they were picked) either isn't doing a fabulous testing job (and I don't think anyone would be surprised by that) or maybe they're just not focusing on the mechanics of the selling system yet.
Eh, there'll be plenty of time for the real playerbase to see i9 on Test and cause all sorts of havoc with this system, so maybe we can change it before it goes live.
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Seriously. Makes me wonder who the hell the got testing this stuff. Chimps?
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Actually, Bridger just posted over on the UK forums that it's mostly Cryptic and NCSoft staff and their friends and family. Whether they're chimps or not, I won't weigh in on.
Personal opinion is no, probably not chimps, but YMMV.
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friends and family of employees eh? well thats not going to be remotely bias feedback in anyway is it? Nosireebob
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All this is going to do is keep prices artificially low. You won't be able to sell anything for anywhere near what it's worth (which, contrary to popular opinion, can be objectively estimated in this game).
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Let's see if I've got this right.
'Hello Wentworths, I'd like you to sell this Zonkium Widget for me. Please get a million inf for it if you can.'
'Righto madam, I'll just pop it on the shelves.'
(later...)
'Hello Wentworths, do you have any Zonkium Widgets?'
'Yes sir, we do.'
'I'd like to buy one, for not more than 500,000 Inf.'
(Wentworths employee goes and checks. Lots of people have brought Zonkium Widgets in, and most of them had an asking price of around 400,000 Inf, but here's one whose seller is clearly desparate, and he only wants 100,000 Inf.)
'Here you go sir, that'll be 500,000 Inf.'
(Wentworths takes the Zonkium Widget that's priced at 100,000 and sells it to the client for 500,000. The client goes away happy. Several other people come in and offer a similar price. It soon becomes apparent that 500,000 or less is about what you can expect to pay for a Zonkium Widget. Meanwhile, my Zonkium Widget gathers dust on the shelves.)
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friends and family of employees eh? well thats not going to be remotely bias feedback in anyway is it? Nosireebob
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Eh, I don't even mind that, to be honest. I even understand why they chose to do it that way, although I question the quality of information they're actually going to get out of it.
What I mind is that we weren't told that in the first place, that we were in fact told that they wouldn't be revealing how they chose the testing group, and that we have to get that info from the UK community mod.
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friends and family of employees eh? well thats not going to be remotely bias feedback in anyway is it? Nosireebob
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Eh, I don't even mind that, to be honest. I even understand why they chose to do it that way, although I question the quality of information they're actually going to get out of it.
What I mind is that we weren't told that in the first place, that we were in fact told that they wouldn't be revealing how they chose the testing group, and that we have to get that info from the UK community mod.
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I dont mind it, just think its pretty pointless as the mindset isnt really going to be beneficial to identifying problems as getting a few people from the boards in there.
And I fully agree, the communication from Cryptic/Ncsoft is comical.
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friends and family of employees eh? well thats not going to be remotely bias feedback in anyway is it? Nosireebob
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Eh, I don't even mind that, to be honest. I even understand why they chose to do it that way, although I question the quality of information they're actually going to get out of it.
What I mind is that we weren't told that in the first place, that we were in fact told that they wouldn't be revealing how they chose the testing group, and that we have to get that info from the UK community mod.
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I dont mind it, just think its pretty pointless as the mindset isnt really going to be beneficial to identifying problems as getting a few people from the boards in there.
And I fully agree, the communication from Cryptic/Ncsoft is comical.
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To be fair, this is Bridger's actual quote (emphasis mine):
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I don't actually know how many US players are involved - as I said, the bulk of the testers are Cryptic and NCsoft staff, and some of their friends and family (which would probably account for some, if not all, of the players).
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He (she?) was responding to disgruntled EUers who thought American players were in the closed test while they weren't. I can't believe that Cryptic didn't put some ringers in there like Iakona and Arcanaville. Unless they have friends and relatives who are insanely into the game, they won't get the quality of feedback they would from hardcore CoX-heads.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
I've written up a ParagonWiki page on the subject of Influence transfers. How they can potentially be intercepted, and proposed strategies for avoiding interception. All totally speculative at this point, but it gives a starting point, and tries to be a summary of the hazards, pitfalls, and possible solutions for making this work. Any comments/updates either here or on the wiki are welcome.
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To be fair, this is Bridger's actual quote (emphasis mine):
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I don't actually know how many US players are involved - as I said, the bulk of the testers are Cryptic and NCsoft staff, and some of their friends and family (which would probably account for some, if not all, of the players).
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He (she?) was responding to disgruntled EUers who thought American players were in the closed test while they weren't. I can't believe that Cryptic didn't put some ringers in there like Iakona and Arcanaville. Unless they have friends and relatives who are insanely into the game, they won't get the quality of feedback they would from hardcore CoX-heads.
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The way I read it, I think Bridger is saying that of course *some* US players were invited, since surely *some* people who would be "friends or family" of Cryptic/NCSoft would already be players. That's a far cry from having representatives of the real playerbase involved, though.
And I think the only way people like Iakona or Arcanaville could have gotten in this thing is if they were related to or personal friends with Cryptic or NCSoft employees. They wouldn't have gotten in just based on their knowledge and number-crunching skills.
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To be fair, this is Bridger's actual quote (emphasis mine):
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I don't actually know how many US players are involved - as I said, the bulk of the testers are Cryptic and NCsoft staff, and some of their friends and family (which would probably account for some, if not all, of the players).
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He (she?) was responding to disgruntled EUers who thought American players were in the closed test while they weren't. I can't believe that Cryptic didn't put some ringers in there like Iakona and Arcanaville. Unless they have friends and relatives who are insanely into the game, they won't get the quality of feedback they would from hardcore CoX-heads.
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The way I read it, I think Bridger is saying that of course *some* US players were invited, since surely *some* people who would be "friends or family" of Cryptic/NCSoft would already be players. That's a far cry from having representatives of the real playerbase involved, though.
And I think the only way people like Iakona or Arcanaville could have gotten in this thing is if they were related to or personal friends with Cryptic or NCSoft employees. They wouldn't have gotten in just based on their knowledge and number-crunching skills.
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If you're right, that's bad news.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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Because only an idiot will actually offer 5 million. You'll start at something low like 50K, and move up in 10-50K increments until you find the low price. In your example, you'll get it for 100,000. Sure when things get started a few people will overbid, but after awhile the only time that's going to happen is if someone doesn't have a good transfer strategy.
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What if there is a limit on how often you can change your bid if you fail to buy? Ie. I place my offer of 50K then 75K then 100K or what ever increment. What if it won't let me do that more than two or three times?
I actually think that would be a reasonable restriction to keep the buyer from fishing to much for the best price.
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You could do that, but really that's part of the 'benefit' of this kind of auction system. Trying to find the lowball bid. Because the successful lowball bid creates an auction log entry. That entry can encourage sellers to lower their prices. That's the theory and it's going to work VERY well for salvage. Recipes and HOs not so much.
And how long of a lock out time do you implement?
I know no one likes high prices, but initial high prices will institutionalize Wentworth's as the primary trading venue. Which means that we all have access to more stuff over time.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.