Support Arena Fixes
By
Alexio_DeAmore,
Posted on: 2006-11-11 12:42 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Here is what makes little to no sens to me. i4, the patch in it's entirety was about the arena. That was now 4 patches ago. To say they care little for pvp, then why did they make an entire patch dedicated to it?
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When i4 came out they were working on cov and needed a way to collect data to begin the "balancing" process based on data created by actual players, not just in house testing (anyone remeber them trying to make integration and IH mutally exclusive?). Oddley enough alot of nerfs came down the pipe shortly after i4. It seems the arenas served their purpose and went on the back burner.
Lighthouse, no offense but it would seem we don't have many of either. Some issues have existed since the beginning of time, some are things people have asked for repeatedly, and some things that are good ideas, to which Developers say they like but use comments like soon.
There's a reason I personally get upset when I seen Soon coming from the lips of a developer. A few cases in point? Mission doors in dangerous parts of the map will be fixed soon. Or my favorite, the next powersets planned are for tankers/scrappers (thought to be Electric Melee/Armor). Yet they went to Brutes.
Scrappers still have the least amount of primary/secondary combinations after all this time. Yet when new powersets come out they're for anyone else. I've asked for just moving some blasters/tanker/brute powers to scrappers, yet the response always seems to be; we're busy with other important issues and they 'balance' something like Blaster machine gun turret.
There's other things as well, large scale things like Melee users are at a penality in PvP because they're required to stand ontop of everyone to hit. It is an problem that made some people not like PvP back when arenas came out, and still developers seem to think it's ok.
I know this is beating a dead horse a bit but let's look at ED. Powers were reduced to being able to use only one enhancement. Could more be added? Sure. Defense/Resistance for defensive powers. Range to melee weapons. Stamina/Health be combined and a new level 20 power. Hasten could use damage resistance. Yet, they only wanted to take away. Not add, not improve glaring problems, not give new enhancements to suppliment the current loss.
And that's my point. It's not that I don't believe developers are busy, but it seems like they don't want to meet demand, increase staff to meet our requests. They don't want to start offical polls to ask us what we want and think deserves priority. It seems like 'We'll change whatever takes the least amount of energy' (Scrappers only getting nerfs are a prime example).
When I say Dark Armor was bad, as defense/resistance and they did testing to prove that it was worse then the rest, rather then bringing it up to the level of the others, they others were brought down to Dark Armor's effectiveness.
I have been distrusting and snide when developers say something, because it really comes across as even if they 'care' it's NEVER enough to effect change.
When the culture exists that things may happen 'next issue' and don't, that's not much of a culture. Especially when we don't get reasons for it, or discussion on it, where we get listened to.
I know you're in charge of community relations, but community relations between us and the developers really suck sometimes.
I know it's not your fault. I know you're new. I know that many people who were apart of things have 'left' and that you guys don't have as many resources as you'd like. I know you're on a schedule, and things have priorities. I know that things might get changed for reasons we're not aware of. I know that Broadsword/Dark Armor is a horrible combination that is never going to get graphic choices, auto powers, or a endurance reduction bonus.
Of all these things I know and more, I know these days, that red name comments should always be examined for what we aren't told. I'm sorry that's the case.
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I'm not asking for this fix because I like PvP (though I do). I also respect people who don't like PvP and who like the other metagames in this game (badges, bases, costumes, etc.) more. I'm asking for support on these fixes because I believe they are better for the game as a whole.
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How is it that this argument comes up every time there is a conversation regarding something completely unrelated to art, despite being pointed out as to how invalid it is every time?
*sigh*
You don't help the argument by throwing in weak, unjustified points.
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
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I'm not asking for this fix because I like PvP (though I do). I also respect people who don't like PvP and who like the other metagames in this game (badges, bases, costumes, etc.) more. I'm asking for support on these fixes because I believe they are better for the game as a whole.
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How is it that this argument comes up every time there is a conversation regarding something completely unrelated to art, despite being pointed out as to how invalid it is every time?
*sigh*
You don't help the argument by throwing in weak, unjustified points.
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I used badges and art as an example. Perhaps it was a bad choice, but I could have easily used base items or certain power sets. I disagree it invalidates my point because the bugs I mention are ones worth fixing.
If you had bases crash as often as arena matches, you would think that the issue was severe...with bases To a significant number of players, that's what they have to live with when they set up arena matches...it does have a huge effect on how they enjoy the game.
I agree with the sentiment that bugs should be fixed regardless of what's bugged. The whole PvP versus badgers versus bases... I don't want to touch that. Lots of folks love different aspects of the game. I'd rather not state if any one aspect is more or less important than any other aspect.
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I'd rather not state if any one aspect is more or less important than any other aspect.
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Then allow me
Aspects of the game that affect a smaller percentage of the population that would require a larger amount of dev resources to fix is less important that aspects of the game that affect a larger percentage of the population and take fewer resources.
Anything the Devs place in that is buggy needs to be fixed eventually, but some utilizations of their limited resources are better than others
Umber's Hall of Heroes & Villains
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If you had bases crash as often as arena matches, you would think that the issue was severe...with bases To a significant number of players, that's what they have to live with when they set up arena matches...it does have a huge effect on how they enjoy the game.
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Dude bases are bugged to hell and have been for months at least, maybe for the whole year they've been out. People get kicked out of bases they are supposed to be allowed in all the time. Whether it's their own base 
or a coalition or the base with who they are teamed with it still shouldn't be happening. If the base pops up on your list of choices to enter you shouldn't get booted from it.
And come on the trams were broken since I7 was on test. And the fix is finally in I8. Trams effect every single hero that travels between a zone and that took 4 months to fix.
Good luck with this arena stuff, but I really don't have much hope for you guys. 
EDIT: Forgot to read test patch notes. Apparently base kicking bug is fixed. But still, many months for a bug that affects a whole lot more people than the arena. Good luck.
I posted to the other thread but the thread appears to have split into two. The purpose of this post is to try to enlighten some people as to why PvP gets so little love from Cryptic compared to other areas. Not to bash PvP.
Cryptic is in Business to make money. This is achieved by making the maximum number of people happy with the lowest expenditure of their limited resources. So lets examine some of the possible Expenditures.
PvP: PVPers make up 2-6% of the population and PvP changes would require a lot of resources from Cryptic.
I have done some random sampling on Protector and Virtue over the last few days and the results show between 1% and 4% (Average 2.54%) of online players are in the PvP zones at any given time. Checking the zones turns up the same names most of the time. Mind you that doesn't even mean they are PvPing. They may be farming better XP, or Prestige (Quite common in RV), Getting Badges or even acquiring temp powers. A Random Sampling of 100 Characters in Atlas Steel and Talos turned up only 6 with PvP Ratings and none over 8.2 ranking. Based on this Data I would conclude that PvPrs make up less then 7% of the game and hard core PvPers probably less then 2% of the game.
Of those who are PvPers most of the things that would make them happy would require a fair amount of resources and some MAY well be impossible without a complete overhaul of the system (see Below, PROBLEMS WITH PVP).
Compare this to the following.
Badgers make up 4% to 33% of population and it takes very few resources for Cryptic to do badges.
The Devs drop a marker at a spot, create some badge art and connect it to the player database. Kill badges may take a little more time but still should be relatively easy. I'm guessing most badges can literally be added by Cryptic in a few hours (maybe as little as 10- 20 minutes for exploration). At least 4% of players are serious Badge Hunters, (signed up for City Info Terminal) and upwards of 30% actively pursue some badges (Random sampling of 100 people (see above) turned up 33 with history badges). In other words 5 times as many people can be made happy by adding more badges then by working on PvP. And said badges require far less resources then TRYING to fix PvP.
Costume options are used by 99%+ of heroes and probably require less resources then PvP.
This is a bit harder to gauge, however many players I talk to love CoXs costume selection. I would GUESS that the amount of resources to make many, though not all, new costume piece is comparatively quite low and the number of people who enjoy or at least will use said pieces is high compared to PvP. Almost without exception, people select a costume for a character. Practically no one uses the default character. Further support came from the fact that of the 3 costume contests I saw while sampling people, every one drew more participants then where found in PvP zones at the same time.
Halloween was swamped by Badge and Costume players.
For further proof of the number of Costume and Badge players keep in mind that the main reason most players "Trick or Treated" beyond the first ten minutes of Halloween was either for an extra Costume slot or Badges. XP sucked, people were rude, there was griefing, and it was crowded. Not exactly good things. Yet it was crowded because a large number of people wanted Badges or Costumes. That's a lot of Badgers and Costume freaks. Once again lots of reward for Cryptic to invest resources towards these areas.
New zones are enjoyed by the vast majority of players.
This takes a fair amount of work, similar in magnitude I would guess to adding a new PvP zone. However upwards of 90% of the players will use the new zone, compared to 2%-6% of players who would use the PvP Zone. Translated a new PvE zone gives up to as much as 45 times better return for development dollar then a PvP zone.
PROBLEMS THAT KEEP PvP UNPOPULAR
Many of the PERCIEVED problems that keep most players from entering PvP can't be fixed by Cryptic.
Achieving PERCIEVED BALANCE amongst characters is impossible.
Balancing the different Characters is pretty much impossible. With close to 1000 different Powers, HO's, Inspirations, Temp Powers, etc, I see no way this will ever be possible. Mind you a very skilled player may be able to take most builds and do something with it, But in order to attract more then the very skilled players you must make MOST players feel their builds are able to fight on an even standing with the other builds. Not a chance. It doesn't matter how much manpower Cryptic adds within reason.
If you doubt this just look at the arguments after 2+ years on weather PvE classes are balanced. I doubt anyone feels they are and Cryptic has had almost 3 times as long to fix them. And that's simple by comparison to balancing PvP.
Some Player attitudes drive potential PvPers away.
Attitude in PvP. While 90%+ of PvPers are good friendly players all it takes are a few individuals who trash talk on open channels, call people noobs, etc to turn off any but die hard PvPers or masochists. Once again Cryptic can realistically do nothing about this.
Perceived Cheap tactics keep Even more players away.
Perceived Cheap tactics. Weather it's stalkers; TP onto Trip mines; Camping the Hospital; 8 on 1 gangups; TPing into Drones or any of several dozen other tactics, Your average player will not hang around long in PvP when faced by these tactics. Worse still within the PvP community itself there is debate on which of these are valid or cheap tactics. If those who like PvP can't agree on the validity of said tactics, than how many non PvPers do you think will want to play in such an environment. Once again Cryptic can do little to help solve this.
Experts dissuade even more new players.
The Expert player will trash the new player every time. Sure given enough time, energy, resources, reading, practice and training, as well as developing a PvP specific build, the new PvPer might be able to win. How many PvEers do you think want to spend 100s of hours trying to do this. That doesn't count the players who already know that there hand Eye coordination, Computer setup, Inet connection or intelligence will NEVER allow them to beat the better players. Cryptic MIGHT be able to set up a difficulty system (Spot people points, Reduce Endurance/HP of those who rank hire, etc) to help offset this. However most all such systems would still be open to abuse and would quite likely anger at least some current PvPers.
Cryptic has seen 6 attempts fail, Why throw good money after bad.
Worse still Cryptic last 6 Attempts to give players PvP have failed.
Arena = Empty.
3 Zones = Almost Empty, and lots of headaches from people complaining about Balance, Cheap Tactics, etc.
Base Raids = Still working to get them going, lots of bugs after a year of spending resources on them with few people using them.
RV= Almost Empty and still more headaches.
Given these failures why would Cryptic want to RISK any more significant Resources into MAYBE making the smallest percentage of players happy with a high probability of total failure (another empty unused area.)
PvP isn't Dead, But it will need a NEW direction to get it going.
Mind you I am not saying PvP is dead. Just that trying to fix the current zones is unlikely to help. Instead my guess is they will try new Dual use methods (Useable in both PvP and PvE) to try to smooth over the problems. Inventions and Hero/Villain teaming being two such. That way even if it FAILS to work in PvP the cost can still be justified by making PvEers happy.
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I realize that developer time is scarce and need to be prioritized. I also acknowledge that PvE matters will take precedence. But I do think there is an obvious inequity when a bugged badge or costume adjustment takes precedent over bugs that are, at least to a significant minority of the population, of high importance and extreme in their effect.
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I did want to comment on the issue of the relatively speedy change to costume issues versus server code issues like arena stability. Please keep in mind that the development folks who do the art are different people from the folks who do client/server code. So, while I don't want to diminish your point, I do want to point out that not doing the costume things wouldn't help speed up addressing arena issues.
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...is there any way you can inform us as to how many people work on what exactly anyway, Lighthouse?
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That would rock; an exact count of how many people currently work on what, art, bugs/fixes, etc.
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Creative Director Jack Emmert
Senior Programmer Shannon Posniewski
Game Designer Matt Miller
Game Designer Mellisa Bianco
Senior Designer/Story Director Sean Fish
Tech Director Bruce Rogers
Sound and Music Michael Henry
Art Matt Harvey
Art Steve Stacy
Art Jeremy Mattson
Art Chris Sutton
Art Christopher Chamberlain
Art Nate Stephens
Art Jeff Jenkins
Art Ian Casteneda
Art Doug Gaston
Art Kirk Young
Programming Matt Woomer
Programming Martin Simpson
Programming CW Bennet
Programming Mark Kalmes
Programming Jimb Esser
Programming Michael Parent
Programming Jonathan Shieh
Design Al Rivera
Design Craig Zinkievich
Design Michael Lewis
Design Brian Gilmore
Design EJ Nelson
Design David Wood
Design Jane Kalmes
Management Matt Harvey
...According to my manual, which is a few years out of date
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Ja 
Ty for that dude, least gives a possible ballpark...
But an updated one would be neat, to! ('specially if it was straight from the devs!)
EDIT: Jeez...7 programmers...I bet THAT one hurts them like heck!
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I used badges and art as an example. Perhaps it was a bad choice, but I could have easily used base items or certain power sets. I disagree it invalidates my point because the bugs I mention are ones worth fixing.
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Base items and power sets aren't usually worked by programmers, either. They're done by art staff and design staff, unless a programmer needs to recode some of the logic that runs the textures, meshes, animations, spreadsheets, and tables that artists and designers huch over and laugh evily about.
Just like zones are built by ... er... zone content people, who use tools created by programmers so programmers don't have to do any of the actual design work.
Rather than looking for scapegoats, perhaps understand that some problems - especially those realted to stability - are just very difficult to fix, best fixed by the person who wrote the original system, and may take lots of time in Quality Assurance before they see a release?
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I did want to comment on the issue of the relatively speedy change to costume issues versus server code issues like arena stability. Please keep in mind that the development folks who do the art are different people from the folks who do client/server code. So, while I don't want to diminish your point, I do want to point out that not doing the costume things wouldn't help speed up addressing arena issues.
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We should also remember that all bugs are not created equal. Certain kinds of costume bugs can be fixed in a few minutes. It's obvious what's wrong and it's obvious what to do and it's obvious whether it's fixed.
Fixing something like server stability is much more difficult. These kinds of bugs are often impossible to reproduce on the testing platform, because they're caused by heavy load or weird combinations of powers or characters left in an odd state (like "I teamed with a Kheld four hours ago").
If you can make ten thousand people happy with three hours of work, it's probably worth it. It may take hundreds of hours of investigation of arena problems just to reproduce certain issues under the right conditions to capture necessary data. You just don't know how long it will take.
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We should also remember that all bugs are not created equal. Certain kinds of costume bugs can be fixed in a few minutes. It's obvious what's wrong and it's obvious what to do and it's obvious whether it's fixed.
Fixing something like server stability is much more difficult. These kinds of bugs are often impossible to reproduce on the testing platform, because they're caused by heavy load or weird combinations of powers or characters left in an odd state (like "I teamed with a Kheld four hours ago").
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Consider the converse of this problem.
A bug underlying the costume editor may be troublesome, but may be more easily worked around than the kinds of bugs and problems that persistently plague the PvP game.
I'd go so far as to argue that the kinds of bugs and problems in game systems like the costume editor or badge systems are largely quality-of-life.
Whereas the problems currently being experienced by the PvP playerbase are simply more substantial -- to the point of game-breaking.
I don't refute the point that the resources that fixes to PvP demand may outscale the resources demanded by other kinds of game fixes -- but no small reason for that is the fact that the underlying problems are themselves more substantive.
Good and well thought-out analysis, Cathulu, especially on the reasons that makes PvP very unpopular. It doesn't take many bad experiences in a PvP zone to make people go very negative on PvP. (And it is in the PvP zones players first meet PvP, not in the Arena, especially with the dragged-by-the-nose approach to the PvP zone contacts.)
Still, these zones are very nicely done, with lots of atmosphere. It's real fun to explore them, do the missions and collect the badges during off-hours, when you are sure to avoid PvP:ers. You are reasonable sure to be able to avoid them during primetime too, as low-populated as they are, but why take the risk?...
And, shouldn't this thread really be in the PVP forum?
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Jeez...7 programmers...
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Note that those programmers most probably have their very own specialties within the code, so that they are not interchangeable in any way.
This means that every one bug lands within the territory of one or two programmers, or in the borderzone between two diffferent programmers. Each of those programmers thus have their very own priority list, and progress in other areas have very little to do with the progress on that list. Adding programmers to an area of expertice, or shifting programmers to it, helps very little in short-term, as it takes programmers two-three months to get up to speed on an unfamiliar piece of code. (See "The Mythical Man-Month" - a basic truth any programmer knows.)
Trying to Observe a Arena fight can make you end up in one of the opposite game's missions?
Muhahahahah fear me little heroes! You may be coming to get rid of this skull boss, but instead you face The Baron! 
<QR>
/signed.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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Good and well thought-out analysis, Cathulu, especially on the reasons that makes PvP very unpopular. It doesn't take many bad experiences in a PvP zone to make people go very negative on PvP. (And it is in the PvP zones players first meet PvP, not in the Arena, especially with the dragged-by-the-nose approach to the PvP zone contacts.)
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Just want to throw an alternate thing out there. My first PvP experience, ever, was in the arena. The day they went live, my husband and I took our level 50's and wanted to see what is was like. He was a spines/regen scrapper, I was a ice/rad controller, both 50. Looking back, I think our problem was that the two guys we went up against had been trying the arenas on test for awhile and were way more aware of how the whole thing was supposed to happen. We died... a lot. Let me think... I think it was a 10 minute match... after about 3 minutes we quit. Never went back. Hitting the rez button, running over a hill and hitting the rez button wasn't that much fun for three minutes.
And, there may have been a few bugs... I couldn't summon any Jacks after the first three died. This was back when Jack was slotted for recharge so I could have four. It just wasn't fun.
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Still, these zones are very nicely done, with lots of atmosphere. It's real fun to explore them, do the missions and collect the badges during off-hours, when you are sure to avoid PvP:ers. You are reasonable sure to be able to avoid them during primetime too, as low-populated as they are, but why take the risk?...
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Back in CoV beta, the devs announced PvP events, first in Bloody Bay. Test the zone and all that. Bloody Bay was FFA then. I didn't want to go. I hadn't tried anything remotely PvP since the first day of the arenas and had no desire to change that. Well, over on the beta forums, some folks were truly exited about these events and the possibility of the devs being in there. Who would turn down a chance to PvP a dev? Figuring it was beta, and at the very least being there would add to server load, I went.
My gods that was fun. Huge battles, sure I died, but I did more than just die over and over. I helped others win, I think I got one or two kills myself. There was more than just hitting the rez button over and over. Those events, the dev hosted, massive battles were a blast and a half. I think there was 15 instances of Bloody Bay going.
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And, shouldn't this thread really be in the PVP forum?
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Depends. Do you want just those that frequent the PvP forums to comment or do you want the General crowd? Which section has more viewing? I'd leave it here, but if you want it moved, pm Lighthouse and ask him.
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Trying to Observe a Arena fight can make you end up in one of the opposite game's missions?
Muhahahahah fear me little heroes! You may be coming to get rid of this skull boss, but instead you face The Baron!
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Funny, they are giving us cross-over PvP missions withotu even trying.
At least that means the mechanics for those missions are there, kind of.
Absolutely Arena crashes and bugs should be fixed.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Arena needs fixing! Please.
I went out and got my grand lanista badge for winning 10 rated gladiator matches last weekend. Other than that I don't spend any time in the arena. We didn't even get to the 10 matches for my partner, it crashed so much. I had two crash to desktop (well actually I had to stop the coh process because it was locked at a load screen) and one time where we were kicked out of the match immediately after starting. After my 10 wins and about 2 or 3 for her, we just quit, the bugs were obnoxious.
Of course we noticed some other bugs too, the inability to invite, the strange nature of not being able to find a listing occasionally(after spamming refresh), etc.
After the first few matches playing with my cool 5th column gladiator, I was actually thinking this may be a cool way to spend some time. That got crushed pretty quick.
It doesn't really matter if this is a feature used by 100% of the players, or 10% or 1%. If it's in the game, it should work. If it doesn't work, it should be fixed quickly. If it can't be fixed quickly, take it out of the game. You are just embarrassing yourself in front of your customers.
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Wait a second... the arena building has an inside? Does anyone else know about this?
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I use its store during TF/SFs and Trials and such. I don't know if that counts.
I would like to point out, in this ostensibly PvP thread, the number of PvD (player versus developer) posts that appeared after Lighthouse posted. And some people wonder why devs don't post as often as they used to.
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
Bug fixes should be prioritized based on severity and population affected, and as such, arena bugs were placed on the back-burner. However, over time, priority on those items has to rise, especially given the severity of the bugs. Otherwise you send the message to your customers that they are no more important than the blip on the population chart they represent.
There is always some way that any player is somehow a minority. It could be "PvPer", or "badger with more than XXX badges", or "AR/Rad corrupters over level 45", or whatever. At any rate, it would be nice to know that when an issue comes up that hits one of your specific minorities, that you will at least be a low priority, instead of a no priority.
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I realize that developer time is scarce and need to be prioritized. I also acknowledge that PvE matters will take precedence. But I do think there is an obvious inequity when a bugged badge or costume adjustment takes precedent over bugs that are, at least to a significant minority of the population, of high importance and extreme in their effect.
...
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I did want to comment on the issue of the relatively speedy change to costume issues versus server code issues like arena stability. Please keep in mind that the development folks who do the art are different people from the folks who do client/server code. So, while I don't want to diminish your point, I do want to point out that not doing the costume things wouldn't help speed up addressing arena issues.
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...is there any way you can inform us as to how many people work on what exactly anyway, Lighthouse?
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That would rock; an exact count of how many people currently work on what, art, bugs/fixes, etc.
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Creative Director Jack Emmert
Senior Programmer Shannon Posniewski
Game Designer Matt Miller
Game Designer Mellisa Bianco
Senior Designer/Story Director Sean Fish
Tech Director Bruce Rogers
Sound and Music Michael Henry
Art Matt Harvey
Art Steve Stacy
Art Jeremy Mattson
Art Chris Sutton
Art Christopher Chamberlain
Art Nate Stephens
Art Jeff Jenkins
Art Ian Casteneda
Art Doug Gaston
Art Kirk Young
Programming Matt Woomer
Programming Martin Simpson
Programming CW Bennet
Programming Mark Kalmes
Programming Jimb Esser
Programming Michael Parent
Programming Jonathan Shieh
Design Al Rivera
Design Craig Zinkievich
Design Michael Lewis
Design Brian Gilmore
Design EJ Nelson
Design David Wood
Design Jane Kalmes
Management Matt Harvey
...According to my manual, which is a few years out of date
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA