stamina, 6 slotted...
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2006-05-24 15:57 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I know since ED 6 slotting stamina doesn't happen much anymore, and I know it's not recommended, but how much end/second extra COULD you get if you 6 slotted it with SOs?
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The same as if you 4 slotted it.
At three slots you reap 95%, with 4 you'll reap 100%. With 5 and 6 you will still only reap 100%
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According to Hero Builder...
0.088 more end/sec between 3-slotted and 6-slotted (with +3 SOs). That's about five end per minute.
Kam
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I know since ED 6 slotting stamina doesn't happen much anymore, and I know it's not recommended, but how much end/second extra COULD you get if you 6 slotted it with SOs?
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The same as if you 4 slotted it.
At three slots you reap 95%, with 4 you'll reap 100%. With 5 and 6 you will still only reap 100%
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Not true, actually. 5 and 6 are diminished the same as 4 is; with 5 you get 105%, and 6 gets you 110%.
Kam
I was under the impression that you could go over 100% with more slots, but not much more. In fact, in some powers on my mind/rad controller - due to having some HOs slotted - I have around 107% on certain aspects. I don't know the exact numbers for Stamina, but I'm almost positive you get more than 100%. BUT, it's more than likely REALLY not worth it to waste a slot for 5% or whatever small amount you gain.
Base End Recovery is 1.66 End per second.
Stamina gives you a 50% Bonus to that, so an additional 0.83 End per second.
3 slotted with SO End Mod Enh you get a 95% Bonus to the Bonus End, so that makes it 1.62 End per Second.
6 slotted with SO End Mod Enh you get a 110% Bonus to the Bonus End, so that brings it up to 1.74 End per second.
If you really really really have nothing interesting to do with those 3 slots you could put them in to Stamina for the extra 0.12 End per second, or in technical terms bugger all.
For comparison most attacks have an average 1End cost of End per Second, so the first SO End reducer you put in them will save you 0.25 End per second, about twice what you got for those 3 slots in Stamina.
regards, Screwloose.
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Saw the difference in our final numbers, thought I'd see why.
I think your "base" figure for Stamina is off. Just going by "feel" Stamina doesn't double your end recovery at three slots (i.e. zero to full in 30 seconds).
Now, Hero Builder numbers have base stamina at 0.507 end/sec, which works out to about a 30% base rate (0.507 / 1.667 = 30.41%) - which, three slotted with +3s, will add about 1 end / second (zero to full in 37.5 seconds).
Anyone feel like testin' tonight?
Kam
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For comparison most attacks have an average 1End cost of End per Second, so the first SO End reducer you put in them will save you 0.25 End per second, about twice what you got for those 3 slots in Stamina.
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Much more than that; in terms of end per activation second the average is closer to 4end/sec. Slotting end reduce in all of your attacks probably saves more end than all of your toggles likely cost combined.
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Kamendae
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I think your "base" figure for Stamina is off. Just going by "feel" Stamina doesn't double your end recovery at three slots (i.e. zero to full in 30 seconds).
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Quite possible, lots of things got tweaked over the last few issues and I have to say Stamina is not a power that I keep good track of.
Arcarnaville
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For comparison most attacks have an average 1End cost of End per Second, so the first SO End reducer you put in them will save you 0.25 End per second, about twice what you got for those 3 slots in Stamina.
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Much more than that; in terms of end per activation second the average is closer to 4end/sec. Slotting end reduce in all of your attacks probably saves more end than all of your toggles likely cost combined.
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True, but I look at it as 1 End per second per attack that you are cycling.
If you just cycle one attack then the End cost per second is End Cost / (Act + Recharge), but since you would normally be cycling 4 or 5 attacks in a chain, or just because you are spamming whatever has recharged, then you are likely to be spending 4 or 5 End per second for your total offensive actions.
Whichever way you look at it offensive abilities (ones which cause damage or distress to others) cost a lot more than personal defensive abilities and therefore save you a lot more when you slot them with End reducers.
regards, Screwloose.
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An easy way to consider it is:
Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.
Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.
Well that solves that.
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Whoa. It's not every day you come into a thread you've been followin' and see a redname...
*genuflects* 
Anyways - much thanks _Castle_. Shows that even the Hero Builder number is a bit high, and puts Stamina's base at about (exactly?) a 25% buff.
*mails SherkSilver* 
Kam
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Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.
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So Stamina with about a 100% Enh bonus provides an extra 49% End recovery?
That looks much more like the sort of value Kamendae was talking about than the value I was talking about. And in relation to the OP's question it means those 3 extra slots get you about 5 Extra End per Minute, still not what I would call a stellar return for slots.
Heh, makes it easier for me to justfiy not taking Stamina on most of my characters I guess.
regards, Screwloose.
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I've been self-modding the Builder's Stamina number to 0.42 base. Dang, I'm pretty freakin' close!
Heheh.
beyond the specific...anything beyond 4 SOs is wasted. 4 SOs only make sense if you may be dealing with yellow SOs (lower level than your level so they're not a full strength.
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Stamina base - 25 end per minute .42 per second
First figure is endurance per minute; second is endurance per second.
1 slot 33.25/.554
2 slots 41.5/.691
3 slots 48.75/.812
4 slots 50/.833
5 slots 51.25/.854
6 slots 52.5/.875
So slots 4-6 net you in total 3.75/.063
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Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.
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So Stamina with about a 100% Enh bonus provides an extra 49% End recovery?
That looks much more like the sort of value Kamendae was talking about than the value I was talking about. And in relation to the OP's question it means those 3 extra slots get you about 5 Extra End per Minute, still not what I would call a stellar return for slots.
Heh, makes it easier for me to justfiy not taking Stamina on most of my characters I guess.
regards, Screwloose.
"I am not young enough to know everything."
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Actually that would be closer to 75% since End mod SO's are 33% even level even though I think Castle may be slightly off. 3+ SOs would be 97.2% so that would be 148%.
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An easy way to consider it is:
Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.
Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.
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:blink-blink:
Endurance recovery functions like recharge enhancements? On the 1/1+enchancements?
WTH?
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why is that a shocker? you're essentially recharging your end instead of a timer. Regen, not heals- regen, can be treated the same way.
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why is that a shocker? you're essentially recharging your end instead of a timer. Regen, not heals- regen, can be treated the same way.
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I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around it actually. It just seems like an involved process so that Stamina functions on a dimineshing returns function.
Which it probably was. With other stamina boosting powers, you are effectively locked down to +83.333% recovery at the very best (which is an impossible to get buff, as that is a 500% increase in recovery.)
Hmm....
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Thanks for making that simple enough for me to understand, EvilGeko. 
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Very specifically you regain 5% of your endurance bar every (3 / (1 + RecoveryBoost)) seconds.
Stamina is a 25% RecoveryBoost. It works on schedule A (33% enhancers).
So if you have 3-slotted Stamina you get back (about) 5% every
3 / (1+ .25 (1 + 0.95)) seconds = 1.4625 seconds.
Normal recovery = 5% / 3sec = 1.6667% / sec
With 3-slot Stamina = 5% / 3 sec * 1.4625 = 2.4375%/sec
Obviously, if you have 100 endurance, 1% recovered per second is 1 endurance per second. But if you have 110 endurance, then 1% recovery is 1.1 endurance.
It's also worth noting that these numbers may seem small, but when you combine them with endurance reduction slotting, the results are dramatic. If you analyze time-to-empty based on endurance burn vs. recovery, the number representing how long youy can fight ends up with your net endurance burn in the denominator. If you can make that net burn small, your time-to-empty becomes very large.
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Whoa. It's not every day you come into a thread you've been followin' and see a redname...
*genuflects*
Anyways - much thanks _Castle_. Shows that even the Hero Builder number is a bit high, and puts Stamina's base at about (exactly?) a 25% buff.
*mails SherkSilver*
Kam
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Castle is confirming numbers that have been around for a really long time. The numbers I use match this site which has been around for quite a while and I believe is parroting information from a guide that was posted long ago (but the exact original source for this information escapes my memory).
You'll note the site says that stamina doesn't increase the amount of end recovered per recovery tick, but decreases the tick time - which seems to match experience, and amounts to the same net overall recovery boost (dividing the tick time by 1+stamina is the same thing as boosting average recovery per second by 1+stamina).
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True, but I look at it as 1 End per second per attack that you are cycling.
If you just cycle one attack then the End cost per second is End Cost / (Act + Recharge), but since you would normally be cycling 4 or 5 attacks in a chain, or just because you are spamming whatever has recharged, then you are likely to be spending 4 or 5 End per second for your total offensive actions.
Whichever way you look at it offensive abilities (ones which cause damage or distress to others) cost a lot more than personal defensive abilities and therefore save you a lot more when you slot them with End reducers.
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There is another factor to consider. if end usage of toggles=end recovery no matter how cheap your attacks are your going to have a losing situation. If end usage of toggles>end recovery then your endurance problems just got even worse. This was the core problem with DA in issue 4. In issue 4 putting an end reduc in the first three shelds and one in death shroud ment you broke even endurance wise exactly. Since there are many times where you need smash/lethal, mez protection, and elemental/energy resistance all at once fighting would always drain you of endurance. One small fight would leave you sitting at almost empty. Now the endurance issues are better, but still there.
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Whoa. It's not every day you come into a thread you've been followin' and see a redname...
*genuflects*
Anyways - much thanks _Castle_. Shows that even the Hero Builder number is a bit high, and puts Stamina's base at about (exactly?) a 25% buff.
*mails SherkSilver*
Kam
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Castle is confirming numbers that have been around for a really long time. The numbers I use match this site which has been around for quite a while and I believe is parroting information from a guide that was posted long ago (but the exact original source for this information escapes my memory).
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This particular number for Stamina may have been around for a while, true - but only as one of several (e.g. Hero Builder's number, Screwloose's number). And I find it interesting to note that it didn't come out as having been "around" until after Castle posted - which leads me to believe that it wasn't that well-known. Having a dev come by and tell us which one is definitive is always a good thing.
Kam
I know since ED 6 slotting stamina doesn't happen much anymore, and I know it's not recommended, but how much end/second extra COULD you get if you 6 slotted it with SOs?