stamina, 6 slotted...
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2006-05-24 15:57 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Some of the posts I've read in this thread basically imply that Stamina isn't necessarily worthwhile. I'd love to get more perspectives on that.
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Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think most people are saying to not take stamina, but saying instead that the 4th 5th and 6th slot you would put in it could get you much better returns if you used that slot as an end reducer in another power.
I have fooled around with Stamina-less builds, and find that not only does my mana not work well without stamina( no matter how I slot for end reduction ) but I REALLY miss swift and health as well.
Stamina-less builds are, IMO, only viable in two cases.
*) You are playing on the default difficulty
*) You have a strong end recovery power that you can use reliably. The Energy Armor and Electric Armor for CoV Brutes contain such powers.
There is a third case - you don't mind standing around waiting for end to come back.
Stamina greatly decreases downtime, and when combined with end reduction in powers, can greatly extend your ability to "fire on all cylenders".
To play on the basic difficulty setting, Stamina is a "nice to have." It's not required at all. To move up the scale it becomes more and more important. Especially to play at the top two settings, IMO it is an absolute requirement. You have to attack more times to kill foes (they have more HP and take less damage), and you often need to kill them quickly to survive (so no standing around waiting for endurance).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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An easy way to consider it is:
Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.
Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.
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Amazing, guess we will need to get the accolades that increase HP and Endurance now for PvP. No chance that you guys will disable those accolades in PvP to level the playing field? Will those accolades possibly mess up the outcome of datamining?
I do find that stamina has been a great boon to my rad/rad defender, especially with the endurance cost reducing ancillary pool power and accelerate metabolism.
With it I can put my healing aura on auto-fire and still use my attacks without worrying about running low on endurance during a battle unless I'm fighting end-draining foes.
I have health and stamina both 3 slotted with SO's (usually +3), and accolades that boost my max end.
/e channeling Teen Talk Barbie
"Math is hard, let's go shopping!"
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An easy way to consider it is:
Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.
Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.
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Are you sure +end Accolades affect your endurance recovery? I know, for a fact, +health accolades don't. Why is endurance different? Why isn't health regen effected too?
It could be taken as a buff for Regen Scrappers if you fix that for us. =P Someone, somewhere, would die of a heart attack.
The accolades (or, really, any +HPMax or +EndMax you get) do not affect the rate of regen (ticks per minute) of either bar. What they do do is increase the raw amount of HP/End that is healed per tick. This is why Dull Pain, for instance, is so good for a /regen - you're still regenerating just as fast (zero to full time), but now each tick heals more damage.
Kam
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You'll note the site says that stamina doesn't increase the amount of end recovered per recovery tick, but decreases the tick time - which seems to match experience, and amounts to the same net overall recovery boost (dividing the tick time by 1+stamina is the same thing as boosting average recovery per second by 1+stamina).
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Which is most definitly true, both for end recovery and for health regen. The bars slide smoothly when a large amount of regen or recovery is in the works, not jumps up in large chunks. A regen scrapper who takes a nasty knock and hits red, quickly progresses smoothly into the orange, then yellow, then green. If regen was upping the per tic amount, it would jump up a lot, wait then jump again. It doesn't.
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An easy way to consider it is:
Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.
Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.
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Are you sure +end Accolades affect your endurance recovery? I know, for a fact, +health accolades don't. Why is endurance different? Why isn't health regen effected too?
It could be taken as a buff for Regen Scrappers if you fix that for us. =P Someone, somewhere, would die of a heart attack.
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your "fact" is incorrect. HP accolades and all powers that buff HP levels most definitely affect how HP regens.
here's a simple way of looking at it.
you've got 1000 hp.
it recovers in 240 seconds.
that's 4.1166 hp per second.
now add +10% HP.
you've got 1100 hp.
it recovers in 240 seconds.
that's 4.5833 hp per second.
so even though we're not taking into accound if you hvae fast healing or health or anything, having a larger pool of HP means you regen back more hp per second, and HP accolades and powers most definitely affect that.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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An easy way to consider it is:
Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.
Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.
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I 6-slot Stamina with every toon, save those with another was to gain it (Transferance) or Masterminds which actually don't need it. If 4 or 5 slot it, I run out of Endurance in every fight, and this is with an End reducer SO in every attack power and toggle.
149% looks good, but in practice is not nearly enough.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
6-slotting stamina only gets you to 154% recovery. So if 149% isn't nearly enough, that won't be enough either. You're better off spending those slots elsewhere (e.g., on more end reducers in your most expensive attacks).
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An easy way to consider it is:
Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.
Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.
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I 6-slot Stamina with every toon, save those with another was to gain it (Transferance) or Masterminds which actually don't need it. If 4 or 5 slot it, I run out of Endurance in every fight, and this is with an End reducer SO in every attack power and toggle.
149% looks good, but in practice is not nearly enough.
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Those extra three slots (above the standard three people use after ED) are only getting you a few endurance pips per minute -- like 3, maybe? There seems to be a lot of contradictory math floating around, so it's hard for me to say. But in essence, over the course of a full minute of combat, you're getting back less than the endurance activating one power once will use.
So any experiences you've had of it extending your ability to fight are most likely illusions. Sorry, but that seems to be the case.
While we would like to believe that we can improve our endurance situation by sacrificing three more slots, it's just not true.
Sailboat
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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An easy way to consider it is:
Without any modifiers, you go from 0 endurance to full endurance in 60 seconds. So, Temp powers or Accolades which increase Max Endurance are also, effectively, increasing Recovery rate.
Stamina, 3 slotted with +3 SO's grants 149% Recovery, or roughly 2.5 End/second if you have the normal Endurance maximum.
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I 6-slot Stamina with every toon, save those with another was to gain it (Transferance) or Masterminds which actually don't need it. If 4 or 5 slot it, I run out of Endurance in every fight, and this is with an End reducer SO in every attack power and toggle.
149% looks good, but in practice is not nearly enough.
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that's really not a good idea. You'd be better off putting those three slots in pretty much any other power.
148.725% versus 152.5% recovery is only 3.7 end per minute. You're telling me 3 end makes that much of a difference? I think it's all in your head.
If you took even 1 of those slots and put it in an attack, even to double slot that attack with end rdx, you'd be better off.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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148.725% versus 152.5% recovery is only 3.7 end per minute. You're telling me 3 end makes that much of a difference? I think it's all in your head.
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Is it? Or is there something to it?This is kind of something that I wanted to mention or ask but never remember too. There's so much that people argue about with this topic, I never wanted to stick a nose in it.
Sappers. I hate them with a passion. But I don't always get ALL of my endurance drained by them where I see even the multi-defensed Brutes and Stalkers do and that drops their toggles. Could it be that Sappers are set to drain just enough for what perhaps a 4 slotted Stamina would be and since I have mine 5 slotted I don't get completely drained. I'm talking Corrutpor here when I say Me. That's the character I'm referring to. If this is just a silly thought, fine. But I too can tell a difference between 4 and 5 slots in Stamina. Say it's imaginary if you want. I'll remain skeptic.
What you're asking doesn't make sense. Stamina does not increase how much endurance you have. It increases the rate at which you regain spent endurance.
If you are not being fully drained and teammates are, it's because of something else. For example, it can be because you are higher level (the drain will be stronger Sappers who are more levels above you), or you have endurance drain resistance.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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If this is just a silly thought, fine. But I too can tell a difference between 4 and 5 slots in Stamina. Say it's imaginary if you want. I'll remain skeptic.
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i promise you, it's 100% a placebo effect.
with 4slotted stamina, you recover 149.75 end per minute.
with 5slotted stamina, you recover 151.25 end per minute.
You're talking about noticing 1.5 points of endurance over a 60s time period. No way.
as an aside. if you threw that slot in an attack that you use alot, you'd be saving probably more like 10 to 15 end per minute. That is noticeable.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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Very specifically you regain 5% of your endurance bar every (3 / (1 + RecoveryBoost)) seconds.
Stamina is a 25% RecoveryBoost. It works on schedule A (33% enhancers).
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So this means that the min-maxiest way of slotting a /Regen scrapper with both QR and Stamina would be a second slot in QR, then a second slot in Stamina, then a third slot in QR...?
Yes, I think so. QR has a better recovery bonus than Stamina, so slot that first. However, the third slot is penalized under ED, enough that I think slotting Stamina next provides a bigger benefit (but I'd have to do the math to be certain). Once they're both two-slotted, QR is worth more again, so three-slot it first, then finish Stamina.
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If this is just a silly thought, fine. But I too can tell a difference between 4 and 5 slots in Stamina. Say it's imaginary if you want. I'll remain skeptic.
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i promise you, it's 100% a placebo effect.
with 4slotted stamina, you recover 149.75 end per minute.
with 5slotted stamina, you recover 151.25 end per minute.
You're talking about noticing 1.5 points of endurance over a 60s time period. No way.
as an aside. if you threw that slot in an attack that you use alot, you'd be saving probably more like 10 to 15 end per minute. That is noticeable.
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I can accept that. I've successfully fooled myself before. I guess it can happen.
I'm very interested in this discussion, as I've long thought that Stamina was absolutely required for many builds to be fun. (I.e., not having all your Endurance drained after a fight and having to grit one's teeth while waiting for the Endurance bar/Rest to recharge.)
My Storm Defender's life got much, much better after she picked up Stamina, although that was many issues ago. I slotted my Tanker for Endurance reducers, and it's just absurd. One fight with a few thugs takes her down to nothing.
I'm a big fan of taking all of one's primary and secondary powers, and I've been trying to find a way to avoid taking Stamina on my Scrapper, since there's honestly only one power in the primary set I'd outright skip. (Warrior's Challenge. I want more aggro... why?)
Some of the posts I've read in this thread basically imply that Stamina isn't necessarily worthwhile. I'd love to get more perspectives on that.