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Also devs should redo Doms' PPP, end of story.
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I completely agree with this. They should look at brutes, stalkers, masterminds and corruptors also.
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As I have noted many times, most of the people who like doms seem to prefer a solo or small-team playstyle.
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"All lies and jests, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." - Paul Simon
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agreed, I don't know how many times 40 people have to say they play in mostly large teams with their doms.
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I am going to reply to this politely and ignore the flames.
[/ QUOTE ]
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what
you think it means." - Inigo Montoya.
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There was a survey on the dom board a while back that asked whether people soloed or teamed.
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Yes. My survey, in fact. 
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About half of the people who responded said they excusively or almost exclusively soloed, and most of the rest said they soloed and teamed more or less equally. Very few said that they almost always teamed.
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Spending a majority of your time soloing (my survey) and prefering to solo (your claim) are _not_ the same thing.
For example: I solo until I get a tell, regardless of AT. According to you, your dominators get less tells than your corruptors. This means my dominator will spend more time solo than teamed. [Edit: At least relative to my corruptor. 
]
However, I *prefer* teaming. Soloing is boring, because I'm basically in complete control of the situation at all times.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
[ QUOTE ]
Many of us like Doms already, right now on live they are pretty viable solo and teamed in PvE dispise the lack of damage we could use. But now with secondary attacks concentrating on domination buildup in PvP, the solution is to up our damage in both PvE and PvP, or add in power buildup as suggested earlier.
It makes no real sense that Controller gets containment and does much more damage through it when they should capitolize on holds and control while buff/debuff and Doms should be more focused on damage if we cannot get the same control power Controllers do.
Also devs should redo Doms' PPP, end of story.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I like Dominators, I do think we aren't perfect. I am a huge hypocrite when it comes to the whole damage issue >.> Damage is not the problem for me - but that's only because I have never played anything with high damage past 5. My problem is the amount of Control we don't have outside of Domination.
The PPPs are just a slap in the face. A weak as hell AoE that won't generate more Domination for us in PvP, end drain that isn't even as good as the ones we get from our secondaries, and pets that aren't even perma. While I would have liked the AoEs, they suck as they are now because they do crap damage. The end drain is something we don't need because we already have Control and most of us don't have end problems once we get Stamina anyway. The pets are a poor excuse for a final power because most of us already get pets and those of us that don't are frankly insulted that they aren't perma. The only good things in them are the armors.
What we could have used:
ST Hold - This I would actually like for stacking in PvP
Defensive Armor
Strong as Hell attack (AoE or ST, Melee or Ranged)
Mez Protection Toggle
[ QUOTE ]
Many of us like Doms already, right now on live they are pretty viable solo and teamed in PvE dispise the lack of damage we could use. But now with secondary attacks concentrating on domination buildup in PvP, the solution is to up our damage in both PvE and PvP, or add in power buildup as suggested earlier.
It makes no real sense that Controller gets containment and does much more damage through it when they should capitolize on holds and control while buff/debuff and Doms should be more focused on damage if we cannot get the same control power Controllers do.
Also devs should redo Doms' PPP, end of story.
[/ QUOTE ]
You aren't going to build domination quickly unless you hit. Good luck against the world hitting force of nature, elude, unstoppable etc or anything with defense.
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Spending a majority of your time soloing (my survey) and prefering to solo (your claim) are _not_ the same thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ummm, OK, whatever.
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However, I *prefer* teaming. Soloing is boring, because I'm basically in complete control of the situation at all times.
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So does this mean you solo a lot because you can't find a team -- odd, after all the claims by others that their doms have no problem finding a team.
Anyway, I don't care whether people are soloing because they want to or because they can't find a team -- the fact is that they are soloing a lot and your own survey bears that out. So please don't flame me for saying it.
Some of you would flame me for saying the sun rises each morning, and it's pretty tiresome.
FivefifteenA
My opinion on the changes are that we could have used more of them.
Both the extra Domination against other players and the reduced timer on the power are postitive steps, but not nearly enough.
[ QUOTE ]
You will only generate 8 points of domination if you hit the player target in pvp. AS DESIGNED, AAAAAAAAAAA. Why does no one care!?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure people care. However, the patch notes state: "Each successful attack from the Assault secondary power sets adds a bonus of 8 points toward filling the Domination bar over the normal value."
I've emphasised the important points. First, it clearly indicates only successful attacks apply the bonus. Second, the bonus is +8, on top of the base 2 points we build for simply activating the power (not saying you were getting it wrong ShrikeX, just seen a lot of people get it wrong in this thread). So, we get 2 points on a miss, and 10 on a hit with our Assault attack powers. Primary powers still just earn 2 points, hit or miss.
Now that may not be as good as we'd have liked, but it is what the patch notes state, so I'd guess that is why there isn't as big an outrage over it. Now, if we want that changed, we need to provide intelligent reasons why it should be changed. Maybe something like this:
The lack of additional Domination on a miss with Assault powers has unfortunately hurt Dominators against one of the power sets they have the most trouble with: Defense. Against Resist or Regen based sets, Dominators are free to land their control powers and hopefully eventually stack them enough to break through whatever status protection the target has. Defense sets, however, are nearly impossible to hit with holds in the first place, and that makes stacking holds to break mez protection toggles as likely as winning a tri-state lottery.
Given that, the best "defense" against Defense builds (besides endless yellow inspirations) is a higher mag on each individual hold, making it much more likely to break through status protection toggles. However, the fix that allows Dominators to build up Domination suffers against these builds...the very builds we need to get Domination built up against!
Now whether the extra 8 points of Domination should be built up on any activation of a secondary power in pvp or just on a hit in pvp is of course a call that could go either way. But without some change somewhere, Dominators will be so heavily beaten by any Defense based hero/villain that PvP becomes impossible. Even with the support of a team, a Dominator is simply too fragile to survive even a margianly aggressive push by the opposing team, and if that push contains Defense based opponents, the Dominator cannot even defend themselves.
So please consider either giving Dominators a chance to build up Domination against the set that gives us the hardest time, or look at other methods that might give us a chance against heavy Defensive sets.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Many of us like Doms already, right now on live they are pretty viable solo and teamed in PvE dispise the lack of damage we could use. But now with secondary attacks concentrating on domination buildup in PvP, the solution is to up our damage in both PvE and PvP, or add in power buildup as suggested earlier.
It makes no real sense that Controller gets containment and does much more damage through it when they should capitolize on holds and control while buff/debuff and Doms should be more focused on damage if we cannot get the same control power Controllers do.
Also devs should redo Doms' PPP, end of story.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I like Dominators, I do think we aren't perfect. I am a huge hypocrite when it comes to the whole damage issue >.> Damage is not the problem for me - but that's only because I have never played anything with high damage past 5. My problem is the amount of Control we don't have outside of Domination.
The PPPs are just a slap in the face. A weak as hell AoE that won't generate more Domination for us in PvP, end drain that isn't even as good as the ones we get from our secondaries, and pets that aren't even perma. While I would have liked the AoEs, they suck as they are now because they do crap damage. The end drain is something we don't need because we already have Control and most of us don't have end problems once we get Stamina anyway. The pets are a poor excuse for a final power because most of us already get pets and those of us that don't are frankly insulted that they aren't perma. The only good things in them are the armors.
What we could have used:
ST Hold - This I would actually like for stacking in PvP
Defensive Armor
Strong as Hell attack (AoE or ST, Melee or Ranged)
Mez Protection Toggle
[/ QUOTE ]
i would've picked that pool
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So does this mean you solo a lot because you can't find a team -- odd, after all the claims by others that their doms have no problem finding a team.
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I solo a decent amount of time on all my toons (not just my dominator) for two reasons:
1. The sporadic nature of invites. I find that I get more invites the later it is; probably because I'm on the east coast.
2. My laziness takes precedence over my desire to actively form a team on my own.
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Anyway, I don't care whether people are soloing because they want to or because they can't find a team -- the fact is that they are soloing a lot and your own survey bears that out.
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So is your stalker.
So is my mastermind.
It's not necessarily due to some global problem with the dominator archtype.
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So please don't flame me for saying it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do I need to repeat the Inigo Montoya quote?
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
So I'm in Test, in RV right now. Got some fights in so let's talk some more on the changes.
I thought Siren's was bad. I've been proven very wrong. I'm getting two and three shotted by trollers. I have 1017 HP - and that's with the High Pain Threshold Accolade. (Yes, I have FIVE DEBT BADGES.) I'd say something about the reduced recharge on Domination, but I cannot stay alive long enough to get it up. I did get it up ONCE working a pillbox, and once again, I had it up to 90 well before it was recharged. Even on a team. Is it building more quickly? Probably, but again, I can't stay alive long enough to tell for sure. Unless I go hide in some corner and try to solo a pillbox I can't tell.
NPCs are laughing at me, doing more than double the damage I am doing. The only rep I've earned in here has been heroes that were trying to solo a team of four villains, and yes, usually gunning for me. Only takes one hold to garauntee my death - when I land a hold, I can't even get them down to half.
No, I don't have PPP's yet and I definitely will not be taking them. (ObGrumpGrouseEtcHere) They offer my build NSB (No Significant Benefit.)
So I'm gonna ask folks the same question I asked here in RV; where's the buff to Dominators that lets me live long enough to actually see and use these other buffs?
[ QUOTE ]
So I'm in Test, in RV right now. Got some fights in so let's talk some more on the changes.
I thought Siren's was bad. I've been proven very wrong. I'm getting two and three shotted by trollers. I have 1017 HP - and that's with the High Pain Threshold Accolade. (Yes, I have FIVE DEBT BADGES.) I'd say something about the reduced recharge on Domination, but I cannot stay alive long enough to get it up. I did get it up ONCE working a pillbox, and once again, I had it up to 90 well before it was recharged. Even on a team. Is it building more quickly? Probably, but again, I can't stay alive long enough to tell for sure. Unless I go hide in some corner and try to solo a pillbox I can't tell.
NPCs are laughing at me, doing more than double the damage I am doing. The only rep I've earned in here has been heroes that were trying to solo a team of four villains, and yes, usually gunning for me. Only takes one hold to garauntee my death - when I land a hold, I can't even get them down to half.
No, I don't have PPP's yet and I definitely will not be taking them. (ObGrumpGrouseEtcHere) They offer my build NSB (No Significant Benefit.)
So I'm gonna ask folks the same question I asked here in RV; where's the buff to Dominators that lets me live long enough to actually see and use these other buffs?
[/ QUOTE ]
I strongly suggest you at least consider taking a Patron Power for the shield it offers, if nothing else. Skip the End drain, pet or AoE if you want since those can bring questionable value. However you just said survivability is your main issue and the shields are designed to address that issue. Is it enough? Probably not since we lack mez protection or self heals. Will it help? Of course it will.
For me the resistance-based PP shields are the way to go. Given that most corrupter shield buffs are resistance based, I'm hoping that our shields, plus the ones from Thermal (or Sonic) will put us at the damage resistance cap.
I wouldnt bother engaing NPCs in RV unless you're have to. Unless its a Pillbox or some NPC you accidently aggroed then why bother?
If you're not living long enough, then there can be a thousand reasons why: 1) your build, 2) heores outnumbering villains by a huge margin, 3) heroes having access to all their APP while vills are still 40, 4) you're teammtes arent trying to protect you, 5) you don't have any corrupters on your team, 6) Trollers are just too damn powerful, etc, etc, etc
I dunno how RV is right now, but I do know that the heroes have *severely* outnumbered the villains during peak hours for the last few days. We can't expect Doms, or any villain AT, to succeed against that.
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I strongly suggest you at least consider taking a Patron Power for the shield it offers, if nothing else. Skip the End drain, pet or AoE if you want since those can bring questionable value. However you just said survivability is your main issue and the shields are designed to address that issue. Is it enough? Probably not since we lack mez protection or self heals. Will it help? Of course it will.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're joking, right? What good does a Patron do me? Answer; none. Absolutely none. That's immutable fact. Why? Because I'm HELD and I have 1017HP. Let's do some math; Head Splitter does over 430dmg and takes less than 5 seconds. Lightning Bolt hits for 338dmg. The troller did over 500 points of smashing. Let's say I've got a 10% res. I'm STILL DEAD! That's 1290 points of damage right there; 10% is 129 points. 1290 - 129 = 1161, and I have 1017. I'm dead. And even if I have 20% resistance, I'm still held. They will kill me period. And for the record, that was about 10 seconds of fighting. TEN SECONDS!
And you're forgetting the fact that heroes will ignore other people to hit a Dom, because we're the free rep. That's all we are now. Free rep for heroes.
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I wouldnt bother engaing NPCs in RV unless you're have to. Unless its a Pillbox or some NPC you accidently aggroed then why bother?
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Wow. You don't know the secret to getting Dom up in PvP; NPCs. NPCs are easier to take than heroes, and you build Domination much quicker off of them. Either way, I was watching NPC damage from NPCs that were attacking a pillbox with us.
[ QUOTE ]
If you're not living long enough, then there can be a thousand reasons why: 1) your build, 2) heores outnumbering villains by a huge margin, 3) heroes having access to all their APP while vills are still 40, 4) you're teammtes arent trying to protect you, 5) you don't have any corrupters on your team, 6) Trollers are just too damn powerful, etc, etc, etc
[/ QUOTE ]
The simple fact can be summed up in one simple sentence.
Dominators have zero survivability period.
I can't survive one on one. I get killed when it's three villains on one hero. Why? Because that hero goes for ME, and I have NO hit points. Three attacks, I'm dead. So what if they're dead from the others? They got the rep off me already.
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You don't know the secret to getting Dom up in PvP; NPCs .... The simple fact can be summed up in one simple sentence.
Dominators have zero survivability period.
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OK, this is bizarre. You're telling this to a guy who has had great success building domination against heroes and who has demonstrated great success in both PVP offense and defense with dominators. Elsewhere, you've complained that the plant primary and cold secondary are especially weak, even though they're widely considered among the best power sets for dominators. You've consistently expressed opinions at odds with the good advice I've seen, and you're getting wasted in PVP. Have you considered that maybe you're doing something wrong? That perhaps your firmly-held beliefs not only interfere with your play but prevent you from learning from mistakes?
Think about it. Fishw0rk is one of the most successful dominator players in PVP, while you complain that you're struggling to even survive. However, you're not only rejecting his advice, but telling him that your way is better. Huh?
OK, got a PM back from the magnificent _Castle_.
In response to 'Do we get +8 Dom per target with an AoE?'
[ QUOTE ]
Not having made the change, my guess is each attack power from the Assault Set that hits any number of targets will get 8 * the number of targets hit. Looking in the sheet, I see that that is definitely how Whirling Hands was set up. I'm not positive that's intended, though.
[/ QUOTE ]
As for how PBAoEs from the Assault secondaries worked:
[ QUOTE ]
It's attack powers only -- so the benefit only comes from enemies that are hit.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, no building Domination from Drain Psyche, not that I really expected it...
It seems, then, that the fast track to Domination in PvP is to pop a whole bunch of yellows and AoE like crazy. Psychic Scream and Psychic Shockwave FTW, perhaps.
[ QUOTE ]
Also devs should redo Doms' PPP, end of story.
[/ QUOTE ]
Add Mez protection to the shields, and Doms would be a LOT happier.
Ok, it seems to me that the community is having two distinct conversations. PvE and PvP
PvE
I would like to know what kinds of Doms everyone is playing. I really think it matters. I have said before */ENR and */ICE should n't have a substantial problem with Hold duration. I timed an actual cycle of Power Boost. Took 62 seconds from one fire to the next. Lasts for 10 seconds. so crunching numbers (and I am sure the Correction Police will nail me), we get 10 seconds of 160% hold of controllers then 52 seconds of 80%. Timing your AoE effects to this windowgreatly improves performance to more than adequate levels. Unfortunately once the mob is held/stunned/etc., our damage output isn't enough to take them down.
On the other side (and I can only assume since I play a Grav/ENRG), most */Fire and */Plants probably feel the opposite. 10 seconds of really good damage but can't hold.
Sorry */Psi, I have no experience with Drain Psyche so I can't really speak to this.
Now the Power Build-Up concept I came up with would boost both sides of this slightly, which I really think is all we really need. A slight bumbing.
PvP
Well I'm done. My Dom won't see PvP unless we get some major help here. We are supposed to have "Active Defenses" (prevent the damage from coming at us in the first place.) This is impossible in PvP since nearly every Hero has mez protection or teams with one of the AT's that can provide it easily. We have no defenses, no mez protection, low hit points and (soon to be) little damage mitigation. The PPP armors are not going to be of substantial help. Example, I was in RV and got hit by a Scrapper. I have 1017.4 health. he crit'ed and did 900 points of damage (900.70 to be exact/ 450.35 doubled). Well assuing that we even had 20% damage reduction, we would still take around 810 damage (360 from original then full 450 crit). This leaves us with roughly 300 health. This would be ok IF WE HAD ANY WAY TO PREVENT ANOTHER HIT. With no defense, the next hit will land and we get to use the lovely Hospital Transport System provided by Lord Recluse. What is worse is that Blasters, Scrappers, Tankers, Controllers, Peacebringers, Warshades and Defenders can all take us down solo in less than 10 seconds. And thats only in RV. Warburg is even worse.
the increase in Domination building, which was not as good as originally advertised is not going to help. We'll need to land 10 SUCCESSFUL attacks to get Domination up. Even if you attack a resistance set character (Regens, Invul Tankers etc.) I'm dead before I become a threat to do real damage.
Personally, I have said everything that I think I can about these changes, what we could still use and my opinions on what should be done. Eventhough this is one of the most active Official threads on the Test server, the devs have said nothing. It appears that they would rather spend time discussing whether villians can get a meaningless Badge (Isolator) than even comment that they hear our complaints. I hope the devs actual read this and consider making some changes to us, but I woon't expect them too.
Keep up the fight for changes my Brothers and Sisters, I am going to the sidelines for awhile.
So you think only Dominators are going down fast in RV? Look a little closer.
[ QUOTE ]
... bunch of rambling and personal attacks trying to drag irrelevant subjects in ...
[/ QUOTE ]
(Removed something arguably a bit too snarky.)
If you've a desire to continue whatever in-game problem you have with me, there's the PM button. This is not the "Issues with Dominators in I6" thread, this is not the "attempt to call out people over things said in Siren's two days ago" thread.
Otherwise, please do explain why people who play Dominators overwhelmingly agree with the asssessment that we are now just free rep. Are we all ignorant fools who should only use the cookiecutter build another player came up with?
(EDIT HERE)
Moving on to actual relevant topics...
[ QUOTE ]
So you think only Dominators are going down fast in RV? Look a little closer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very much not what I said, or would say. Certainly Dominators are not the only AT going down fast. MM's also go down very quickly. To say we're alone in getting our butts handed to us would frankly, be stupid. I teamed with an MM for a bit, and yep, he got two-shotted. Difference between us and MMs however, is that the MM has pets doing damage, and also soaking damage (in theory.) The MM does not have to be in the thick of things. With Ice/Ice, I have no choice but to close to melee range if I want to drop toggles, which is my most effective power. And yes, I have two lvl25 MM's, but I have not put them on test or played them that recently.
(END EDIT)
I won't be able to do PvE testing till next client-side patch. I cannot test Grandville due to a very nasty SMP bug that I finally recognized today. It's definitely a bug, and I'm just praying it doesn't prove difficult to track down. I did attempt to do some testing, but it's utterly impossible to test against mobs or missions with this bug. 
Huh. So that's why I didn't generate crap for Domination the two seconds I was standing in RV. I didn't hit anything.
Hmmm... I am curious if Psychic Shockwave might do crazy things in PvP though.
And AreEss, Fishw0rk knows what he's talking about when it comes to PvP. He's one of the few dominators I know that seriously hangs out and fights in PvP zones. I wouldn't dismiss him out of hand like that.
EDIT: Oh, and I agree about the testing. We should probably turn our attention to that. The debate here is 11 pages (by my count) without Dev comment. We've had months of this very debate in the Dom forums without Dev comment. If they haven't said anything by now, more of the same won't change it. If they don't agree with us by now, more of the same won't change it.
Better to tackle the change, play with it, test it out, and report results.
And put extra special care to make sure you don't come across as saying "Oh, well, I knew it wouldn't work anyway." That just diminishes any argument you make. Tell us why it works so great. Tell us where it's weakened. Some people are already reporting an uptick in how often Domination is available in PvE, and that's good. Some people report that getting Dom up in PvP is easier too.
Yeah, we die fast in RV, but did you look at the Pillboxes? Straight Heroes. It's 2-1 hero vs Villain, with level 40 villains vs level 50 heroes. Everyone's being 2 shot out there. So go to Warburg or whatever. RV won't be a "fair match" for a few months yet, regardless of your AT.
Less whine! More productivity! That doesn't mean criticism should stop, just make it constructive!
well the mods are deleting posts from this thread, even if the devs aren't reading it
There is another problem with our big fat cookie, "bonus domination points from assult."
In most cases, assult is whippied out after a dominator has established control BECAUSE OUR DAMAGE IS CRAP CRAP CRAP. So Dusk, what does that mean? It means that for PvP in particular the biggest benefit to having domination is that we can acheive a hold or control faster. Because if a target is not controlled, we are going to die. Quickly. Cause we have zero defense. Ok. We all on the same page?
Now with this "bonus" we are encouraged to sacrafice attemps at controll to apply CRAP CRAP CRAP damage to build domination so we can control. Which will lead to death. Quickly. Anyone else starting to see this boost as sending a guy into a gun fight with a +5 sword of Bread And Circuses?
Faster dom is nice, don't get me wrong, but the real problem with the set is that we do not do enough damage EVEN WITH DOM RUNNING to discourage people from making kamikazi runs at us. We need to be off the defender damage scale (if we even have that) because def's get debuffs that cant be escaped with an insp.
I am NOT calling for insp nerfs or anything of the sort, and if higher damage would unbalance PvE ok, fine. But we need a damage boost even if it is just for PvP so that the sign on our forhead that reads " Instant Reputation Gain" is replaced by "Slightly More Dangerous Than A White Con Minion" at least. Controller's containment was a good change, a balanced change in fact. I think the Dom community would be quite happy with a PvP increase in base damage. Fear of getting whacked is the only real deterant in PvP. Currently nobody is afraid of us. That needs to change.
Mr. Craptastic - 40 Dominator Mind/Energy
The Dooney Boys, Champion
PinguCJL
@Duskhammer
@Fondu
Not enough damage with Domination running? LOL
Oh and by the way Castle, will our Patron Power Attacks get the same 8 point bonus?
My comment on not enough damage with dom running was in reference to PvP only, should have made that clear. If you disagree, fair enough.
PinguCJL
@Duskhammer
@Fondu
maybe domination could be running all the time in PvP
that'd balance us
Many of us like Doms already, right now on live they are pretty viable solo and teamed in PvE dispise the lack of damage we could use. But now with secondary attacks concentrating on domination buildup in PvP, the solution is to up our damage in both PvE and PvP, or add in power buildup as suggested earlier.
It makes no real sense that Controller gets containment and does much more damage through it when they should capitolize on holds and control while buff/debuff and Doms should be more focused on damage if we cannot get the same control power Controllers do.
Also devs should redo Doms' PPP, end of story.