Official Thread for Brutes: Electric Shields
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 24:02 in Developers' Corner
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And what exactly is this set supposed to do? I don't think power sets come with a mission statement. You argued earlier that it should have higher resists, but it seems to have more S/L than either fire or dark armour. No, it doesn't have Invuln level resists, but then again all invulnerability has is resists. They do get dull pain, but the differentiation between invuln and all the other resist sets is that they have utility and/or damage powers.
Quickness, Power Sink, and Conserve power are all utility. Electric armour also has Psy resists.
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What's it supposed to do? Help you survive and mitigate damage. Sure, it does that, but the question is "How well?" You don't need a mission statement, that's common sense.
DA and Fire have a heal, which warrants lower resistance. They also have effective means of secondary damage mitigation. Fire in the form of higher damage potential. DA in the form of crowd control. Electric gets... end drain, which isn't effective unless it's 100%, which would make it ungodly overpowered.
However, Electric also gets an auto recharge boost and the means to generate more endurance, which will aid in staying in the fight longer and defeating enemies quicker. That's the optimistic view. I don't think it will work that way at all. Fire plays the "kill things quicker" card already and it stills gets a heal.
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And what exactly is this set supposed to do? I don't think power sets come with a mission statement. You argued earlier that it should have higher resists, but it seems to have more S/L than either fire or dark armour. No, it doesn't have Invuln level resists, but then again all invulnerability has is resists. They do get dull pain, but the differentiation between invuln and all the other resist sets is that they have utility and/or damage powers.
Quickness, Power Sink, and Conserve power are all utility. Electric armour also has Psy resists.
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What's it supposed to do? Help you survive and mitigate damage. Sure, it does that, but the question is "How well?" You don't need a mission statement, that's common sense.
DA and Fire have a heal, which warrants lower resistance. They also have effective means of secondary damage mitigation. Fire in the form of higher damage potential. DA in the form of crowd control. Electric gets... end drain, which isn't effective unless it's 100%, which would make it ungodly overpowered.
However, Electric also gets an auto recharge boost and the means to generate more endurance, which will aid in staying in the fight longer and defeating enemies quicker. That's the optimistic view. I don't think it will work that way at all. Fire plays the "kill things quicker" card already and it stills gets a heal.
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Yes, Fire plays the kill things faster card. With Burn. Which was nerfed in at least 2 sucessive issues. Nerfed to the point that many people don't even use it anymore. It may be more effective in I7 since it's supposed to be boosted by build up like powers.
So what have fire brutes had since CoV came out? Fiery Embrace? Woo. That's only better than build up if you're fire/fire. So you wait until level 35 to play your "kill things faster card"? I'm not trying to be snippy, I'm really curious. What has fire had for the last issue that made it kill things faster than any other set?
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.) - Whitman
Consistency is the defense of a small mind. - Beldin
Fire has it's issues, no doubt, but this isn't the place to talk about it.
But now you know why some of us would like to see this set done right the first time.
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Just as an initial observation on the set, and having recently played an EA brute. I have several thoughts.
1) Conserve Power and Power Sink in the same set are redundant.
2) Conserve power with it's 90 sec up ~500 sec recharge isn't to useful except against long fights against single foes.
3) Unless this set has far more resists then fire, it will underperform without a heal.
4) Replace Conserve power with either a Reconstruction clone, Dull Pain power, an AoE foe based heal or add a +regen to one of the other toggels.
With a self heal this set will have recieved compensation for it's status resist holes.
Also how many other defensive sets don't have a heal? Two and they are both defensive, SR and EA. (Stone gets +regen and +hp). While I like the differences between powersets I also think you should ask why the other sets work or don't work and learn from that. But those are just my initial observations I haven't had time to get past lvl 3.
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I have to Agree, Conserve Power need to be removed...As much as I wouldn't mind having it.
Another reason for CP to be replaced with a heal is our Damage Aura. As a Brute you want the Agro to build your Fury Bar, an Interruptible Heal (Aid Self) just doesn't work with a Resistance set, unlike Defense sets.
Dev's, Please consider this Idea.
From my experiene...majority of the sets, powers, and nerfs that are seen in the test...will be pushed thru to live...no matter what....they may change it in the future..lets say about a month to never....but majority you see know in the sets will be seen in the live version.
Am i happy that */Elec doesnt has no aself heal, kb, and immob? heck no...but all we can do know is test it for the devs...who knows maybe and i mean maybe they will listen 
Maybe they think we will like /elec better because the damn dark armor sound effects aren't fading away anymore on test... *grumble*
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
I wouldn't be so quick to ditch conserve power ...
with the /Elec "Quickness"-type power, this is possible:
- click conserve power
- click hasten
- click build up
- click energy transfer (2 recharge SOs)
- click total focus (2 recharge SOs)
- click stun .. or whatever to fill a very brief gap
- click energy transfer (again)
- click total focus (again)
... build-up was running that whole time! 
You can get through 2 ET/TF chains with this set in <10 sec, if you have the endurance.
It will cost about 70% without conserve power and only 35% with it.
I don't see anything glaring so far that seems wrong power-wise, but for the love of god, can Lightning Field's graphics get toned down?
I didn't think it was possible to make an aura that was more eye-searing and headache-inducing than Blazing Aura, but Lightning Field definitely is. It's -painful- to keep on, and that's even with a massively reduced particle count.
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The big problem with this power set, as I have stated earlier is that you cannot cover the self heal hole. Aid Self is an interruptable power, and /elec is a +res power set, therefore you can't rely on using it when you really need it.
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Sure there is. And it's not interruptable either. There are these little things called Inspirations. There's a green variety of them that *gasp* heals you!
Yes there are holes, however if there were no holes, why would anyone play anything other then this set? Why does everyone think that this set should be so much more powerful than all the other Armours? This set has some amazing powers and some amazing strengths, yet everyone is only concentrating on a couple of the weaknesses that it has. It's kind of depressing, really.
Now, no one has played this set to any kind of decent level, however from the low levels that I've been through it looks like a fun, neat set. Maybe we should give it a chance and actually try the aspects of it out that we're complaining about before whining.
I'm just sayin'.....
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The big problem with this power set, as I have stated earlier is that you cannot cover the self heal hole. Aid Self is an interruptable power, and /elec is a +res power set, therefore you can't rely on using it when you really need it.
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Sure there is. And it's not interruptable either. There are these little things called Inspirations. There's a green variety of them that *gasp* heals you!
Yes there are holes, however if there were no holes, why would anyone play anything other then this set? Why does everyone think that this set should be so much more powerful than all the other Armours? This set has some amazing powers and some amazing strengths, yet everyone is only concentrating on a couple of the weaknesses that it has. It's kind of depressing, really.
Now, no one has played this set to any kind of decent level, however from the low levels that I've been through it looks like a fun, neat set. Maybe we should give it a chance and actually try the aspects of it out that we're complaining about before whining.
I'm just sayin'.....
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QFT. Nothing wrong with the set having holes, every set does, and every set needs some for balance. The holes in this set aren't insurmountable by any stretch of the imagination. 
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The big problem with this power set, as I have stated earlier is that you cannot cover the self heal hole. Aid Self is an interruptable power, and /elec is a +res power set, therefore you can't rely on using it when you really need it.
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Sure there is. And it's not interruptable either. There are these little things called Inspirations. There's a green variety of them that *gasp* heals you!
Yes there are holes, however if there were no holes, why would anyone play anything other then this set? Why does everyone think that this set should be so much more powerful than all the other Armours? This set has some amazing powers and some amazing strengths, yet everyone is only concentrating on a couple of the weaknesses that it has. It's kind of depressing, really.
Now, no one has played this set to any kind of decent level, however from the low levels that I've been through it looks like a fun, neat set. Maybe we should give it a chance and actually try the aspects of it out that we're complaining about before whining.
I'm just sayin'.....
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QFT. Nothing wrong with the set having holes, every set does, and every set needs some for balance. The holes in this set aren't insurmountable by any stretch of the imagination.
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word. the last thing i would want is this set to become the end all/be all. but i think regen word help the set out. a minor additive and it isn't over powered. jump on my bad wagon already!!! 
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How wrong you are. I won't go into why because this isn't the official teleport board.
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People are always on the move in PvP. You can't keep up with Teleport only. Stalkers can get away with it, but that's about it.
If you're telling me you are highly effective at chasing runners and kiting with TP, I'm calling shenanigans.
As for the set, I know it needs holes. I just think the holes it was given are poorly thought out and not on par with what the other resist sets do. All sets have a secondary damage mitgation ability that warrants holes and lack of KB. DA and Fire... it makes sense and we all deal with it and accept it.
However, Endurance Drain isn't effective secondary damage mitgation unless it's 100%.... and that would be overpowered. Hence, the set needs something to fall back on because these other situational Pros (slow resist, end drain resist, - recovery, psi resist, TP resist) just don't cut it. They just aren't prevalent enough in the game to warrant such drawbacks and power pool reliance.
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Even so, every single hole is filled with the appropriate power pool selections. I don't understand the moaning that is being dredged up by this new secondary.
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Then you aren't paying attention. Read that first sentence again.
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LOL! Dude, you are just whining and reiterating the whining others have initiated. You just pointed out some serious strengths of this set and for some reason believe that this sec needs to be overpowered to the point of requiring a future nerf. Power Sink is a great weapon, probably one of the best toggle dropping attacks in the game. I have used this repeatedly in pvp...in pve it is up soon enough to really never need to worry about endurance. Slotting it 3 end mod and 3 recharge reduc + lightning reflexes means that it will be up even faster.
The damage resistance is great. Aid Self becomes increasingly less interruptable with the proper slotting. Teleportation pool + hover (or Air Superiority + Fly) and the Leaping pool are both viable selections for travel powers. Wonders can be done with TP and TPfoe with which you have an obvious lack of experience. Check out Elernet's example of what can be done via his vids. With the build I suggested earlier, you enter the combat instantaneously. This allows you to "shock" your opponent who may be fighting someone else. You can tpfoe a runner...which, if slotted correctly, can be up every 10 seconds with a fairly long range. LF + Swift + Hurdle = fairly fast, unsuppressed combat travel which you can switch to hover if you are dealing with knockback.
Ok, I am done. Recommence with the "whine moan no knockback or immobilization resistance and no healing" rants.
Some basic things that I think we can all agree on:
* Every set needs some form of holes in it.
* Too many holes in a set make it counter-productive and no fun to play.
* Too few holes and the set becomes uber and the FOTM - soon to be followed by the nerf bat of doom.
The essential question we need to ask it which - if any of the holes in electric are too costly for what you get.
knockback/immobilize - this one has been debated for what seems like forever. Currently both Dark and Fire have a problem with this and many don't like it. While it can be filled with pool powers, I am not sure the overall set has enough positives to counter it.
Heal/health boost - Electric is the ONLY brute set to not have either a self heal or health boost. Granted Energy does not get their health boost until Overload. Granted Electric does get an overload type of power, but it has not got any form of heal boost to it and there is a drop in endurance and health at the end.
Not sure if the health loss is acceptable.
I agree. After testing out an elec / elec last night, I can easily see the need for some form of healing in this set.
I honestly do not see how a pure resist set with no form of heal boost and / or recovery is really viable without constant support from a healing partner. Which is what /elec brutes will need during higher end content.
The only thing that can be done will be to carry alot of greens and / or aid self with 2 - 3 interupt SOs in it.
The entire no immobilzation / knock back issue, while annoying to find in yet another set, is far more easily planned around by either leaping or hover / TP combo.
Look at it this way:
No healing: Green inspirations, Aid self (2 power slots, 4 or 5 additional enhancement slots)
No immoblization protection: Breakfree inspirations, Leaping pool; Combat jumping (1 power slot) or Hover + TP (3 power slots, plus at least 2 additional enhancement slots in TP)
No knockback protection: No inspirations available, Leaping pool; Acrobatics (3 power slots) or Hover (1 power slot, possible 2 additional enhancement slots for movement as desired)
So, knockback is the most easily dealt with, except it has no inspirations to help it. You can get away with just hover, or go with acrobatics.
Immoblization requires the most sacrifice in terms of power slotting (or matches knockback if you go acro for both). But offers 2 viable and different paths for building.
Healing requires the most enhancement slots (you don't need to slot hover and TP both. You can just use base slot hover and 2 slotted TP w/ end reduction to move around in combat). But it is the most restrictive path for building.
I too believe that Grounded should not be a passive but a regeneration toggle, rather like the one in /Stone. Add knock back protection, and - jump, - fly.
This way, there is healing capability within the set, knock back protection, and you can still either go acrobatics or teleport to work around immoblization protection.
If this set has to be given a passive, replace conserve power, mimic the current grouded, and call it Insulated.
At the very least, give lightning field a chance to recover drained endurance from targets to the user.
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At the very least, give lightning field a chance to recover drained endurance from targets to the user.
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Agreed.
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LOL! Dude, you are just whining and reiterating the whining others have initiated. You just pointed out some serious strengths of this set and for some reason believe that this sec needs to be overpowered to the point of requiring a future nerf. Power Sink is a great weapon, probably one of the best toggle dropping attacks in the game. I have used this repeatedly in pvp...in pve it is up soon enough to really never need to worry about endurance. Slotting it 3 end mod and 3 recharge reduc + lightning reflexes means that it will be up even faster.
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There's always someone like you posting, so I guess I should grow some think skin. Listen, just because someone has concerns about the set doesn't mean they're whining. If you disagree, fine. You're entitled to. But don't be so ignorant and label anyone that doesn't bow at the feet of this set as a whiner.
I don't want the set to be overpowered, that would just mean future nerfs. I want the set to be fun and on par with the other sets. I honestly don't feel that it is and I've given several examples about why I feel that way. I'm also testing the set and will relate my experiences in this test thread. That's what it's for after all.
I'm not whining. I'm trying to give constructive critcism.
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Teleportation pool + hover (or Air Superiority + Fly) and the Leaping pool are both viable selections for travel powers. Wonders can be done with TP and TPfoe with which you have an obvious lack of experience. Check out Elernet's example of what can be done via his vids. With the build I suggested earlier, you enter the combat instantaneously. This allows you to "shock" your opponent who may be fighting someone else. You can tpfoe a runner...which, if slotted correctly, can be up every 10 seconds with a fairly long range. LF + Swift + Hurdle = fairly fast, unsuppressed combat travel which you can switch to hover if you are dealing with knockback.
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So, you're successful with TP because you can gank people and kill steal? Way to prove me wrong.
TP Foeing of runners doesn't work very well on SJers. Regardless, TP foe isn't TP. I'm talking about chasing people down with teleport, not cycling them with TP foe. TP foe isn't a "travel" power. Any schmo can perma-TP foe someone over and over and plink their HP away. Also, supplementing TP with unsuppressed movement speed is padding the viablity of TP. If you want to say "TP + Hover + slotted swift/hurdle/LR + TP foe is amazing travel" then ok, I'll agree. However, I said that TP was not good for chasing runners. You've done little to convice me and yes, I have plenty of experience.
Maybe I exaggerated by saying a TPer would never kill anyone, but no way is it on par with SS, Fly or SJ.
-Fly powers negate the KB protection form Hover. There are plenty of -fly powers in PvP, especially on the Hero side. It can be ok in some situations, but I wouldn't rely on Hover for KB protection in that environment.
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LOL! Dude, you are just whining and reiterating the whining others have initiated. You just pointed out some serious strengths of this set and for some reason believe that this sec needs to be overpowered to the point of requiring a future nerf. Power Sink is a great weapon, probably one of the best toggle dropping attacks in the game. I have used this repeatedly in pvp...in pve it is up soon enough to really never need to worry about endurance. Slotting it 3 end mod and 3 recharge reduc + lightning reflexes means that it will be up even faster.
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There's always someone like you posting, so I guess I should grow some think skin. Listen, just because someone has concerns about the set doesn't mean they're whining. If you disagree, fine. You're entitled to. But don't be so ignorant and label anyone that doesn't bow at the feet of this set as a whiner.
I don't want the set to be overpowered, that would just mean future nerfs. I want the set to be fun and on par with the other sets. I honestly don't feel that it is and I've given several examples about why I feel that way. I'm also testing the set and will relate my experiences in this test thread. That's what it's for after all.
I'm not whining. I'm trying to give constructive critcism.
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Teleportation pool + hover (or Air Superiority + Fly) and the Leaping pool are both viable selections for travel powers. Wonders can be done with TP and TPfoe with which you have an obvious lack of experience. Check out Elernet's example of what can be done via his vids. With the build I suggested earlier, you enter the combat instantaneously. This allows you to "shock" your opponent who may be fighting someone else. You can tpfoe a runner...which, if slotted correctly, can be up every 10 seconds with a fairly long range. LF + Swift + Hurdle = fairly fast, unsuppressed combat travel which you can switch to hover if you are dealing with knockback.
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So, you're successful with TP because you can gank people and kill steal? Way to prove me wrong.
TP Foeing of runners doesn't work very well on SJers. Regardless, TP foe isn't TP. I'm talking about chasing people down with teleport, not cycling them with TP foe. TP foe isn't a "travel" power. Any schmo can perma-TP foe someone over and over and plink their HP away. Also, supplementing TP with unsuppressed movement speed is padding the viablity of TP. If you want to say "TP + Hover + slotted swift/hurdle/LR + TP foe is amazing travel" then ok, I'll agree. However, I said that TP was not good for chasing runners. You've done little to convice me and yes, I have plenty of experience.
Maybe I exaggerated by saying a TPer would never kill anyone, but no way is it on par with SS, Fly or SJ.
-Fly powers negate the KB protection form Hover. There are plenty of -fly powers in PvP, especially on the Hero side. It can be ok in some situations, but I wouldn't rely on Hover for KB protection in that environment.
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so are you offering solutions or tearing a poster down. i think i missed it, or maybe i for got it in the long post.
i got that tp is bad, hover is bad. with that aside. you most likely will be going with the leaping, which takes care of immob and kb. so now those aren't a problem anymore. so what is left ? healing? i just can't remember what you are promoting.
it better be add regen to a power! 
Yeah... I apologize. We seem to be having a hissy fit tiff over the viability of TP in PvP. This isn't the appropriate place for that debate, so my apologies. To him and everyone else.
What am *I* promoting? Hmmm... I seem to have done more criticizing than promoting. Bad me!
Well, so far I like my idea of replacing Conserve Power with Quick Recovery. Building "Stamina" into the set makes sense thematically and allows us to reliably bypass Fitness. It would also be another useful auto-power.
I'd also like to see higher resistance numbers for ALL non-S/L damage. Perhaps the old Temp Invul base of 32.5%. I'd like to see this for the non-S/L resistance shield. Getting that kind of resistance versus S/L makes Invul look unappealing and inferior . The set really needs to be able to take a hit, especially without a reliable form of secondary damage mitigation.
Sure, I've complained about the lack of a heal and Immob/KB protection. I would love to have it, but I just don't see it coming. Therefore, I'm trying think think of suggestions that are within the realm of possibility, but at the same time provide just compensation for the lack of that heal and KB protection. Having substancially higher resistance numbers does that, IMO.
I don't think this set will ever see healing. I highly doubt that the powers that are already in it will be removed to make way for a Heal. can't say I blame them, honestly.
EDIT to add:
I'd also like to see repel resistance added to the Tier 9.
So, in summary -
- Higher non-S/L resistances
- Quick Recovery in place of Conserve Power
- Repel resistance in Power Surge
Power Surge also gets KB and Immob protection, so I think it all evens out in the end.
These suggestions also stay firmly within what the set already offers and justify, to me, the lack of a heal/KB/immob in the meat of the set.
I won't like it, but these changes would definitely make me shut the F up about it.
IMO, LR should have a small heal regen added to it. +75 to 100% should work out perfect. It will not make the set uber but will make most brute pass on aid self.
I've thought about my experiences as a stone tank. The resist numbers should help as much as rock armor (agaunst whites). Stone has rooted. I feel putting the regen in a power that some might pass on (unlike putting it in one of the main shields) will balance the set.
GF
Sorry somewhere in the last 12 pages I completely missed the "holes" mentioned...
Though I don't like that "they can be filled with the right pool powers" comment...makes it sound like every Elec/Elec would be gimped if certain powers weren't selected in addition to the mains.
Makes it sound like the only "good" elec/elec is a cookie-cutter elec/elec...
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Sorry somewhere in the last 12 pages I completely missed the "holes" mentioned...
Though I don't like that "they can be filled with the right pool powers" comment...makes it sound like every Elec/Elec would be gimped if certain powers weren't selected in addition to the mains.
Makes it sound like the only "good" elec/elec is a cookie-cutter elec/elec...
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This is true and can be seen in the old fire tank builds. There were certain powers almost every fire tank had to take to make a viable tank.
Current holes are:
- No immobilize protection
- No knockback protection
- No self-heal/or/ hp boost
All the electric shield powers are causing a brief 'freeze' effect when the graphics cycle, even on minimum graphics settings; but only inside missions. (What type of mission map doesn't seem to make a difference.)
Isn't the set supposed to have resistance to resistance debuff? I remember reading that somewhere.
I play a lot of Brutes and I want to play an /elec Brute too.
But if /Elec had a "Dull Pain", why play /Inv?
/Elec would = /Inv + Quickness + Slow/EndDrain/TP-resist + Hold-after-"Unstoppable"-crash
(*including leaping pool to close other gaps)
After some thought and contemplation, I think the lack of a heal might be fine... I guess *shrug*
Soloing will be rough as all hell, but definitely in the realm of balance. The lack of KB and Immob is still uncalled for though.
Let's hold off on talking about how great Lightning Reflexes may or may not be. If it's anything like Quickness from SR, then it might be worth something. I have my doubts about the slow resistance though. Ice Armors passive slow resist (in Permafrost) is pitiful. I'm betting that this will be as well, but only time will tell.