Official Thread for Brutes: Electric Shields
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 24:02 in Developers' Corner
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i really wish grounded was what someone suggested, a toggle with medium end cost that did -fly, -jump, and +regen and knockback protection
i'd play the set if it had this, otherwise i'll roll a elec/stone or /EA or something (would've picked /inv but its ugly black now)
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I don't get it. I honestly don't.
There's a Brute set with a Quickness clone power, and people want to change it to Fast Healing? Cause Brutes never need +recharge and +runspeed for Fury. Naah...
/e boggles. Am I missing something? No, that's not a rhetorical question.
Thanks,
-> Scott.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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Not exactly. Invuln has invincibility. There have been many long posts analysing why the defense from invincibility is like 70% of the set's survivability. Adding Dull Pain would still leave Elect armour as an entirely resist set. *shrug* Whatever.
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What's a polite way to call bull*#@%?
"70% of the sets survivablity?" In what possible situation? PvE-ing an army of white minions maybe. But not against mobs teams actually fight or in any situations I reguarly encountered. I respec'd out of Invincibility because IMO it was a waste of endurance. This may change with the recalculation of DEF in I7. I'll reserve judgement. It will remain the same for PvP.
The more I think about /Elec, the more I think it's a well balanced set. Even with the sin of limiting travel power diversity.
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If you'd like me to drag the numbers wizards over here, I can. The defense from invincibility is a huge portion of Invuln's survivability. Huge. It's much much better than any of the passives.
If you're hit 100 times for 100 damage each time and all you have is 50% resistance, you'll take 100 x 50 damage or 5000 damage. If you have even 5 enemies in range with Invincibility on, (assuming it's 3 slotted with def SOs) you get 24.6% defense to anything you have resists to. Subtract Unyielding's penalty and you have 19.6% defense.
Then you'll only be hit 80.4 times. You still have 50% resist. That means you'll take 4020 damage. Instead of 5000. That's almost 1/5 less damage. If you have the full 10 enemies in range, it adds 15.2% more defense. You'll end up taking more than 1/3 less damage. From one power. Plus it boosts your accuracy. "Waste of Endurance" indeed.
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If your fighting an army of things that hit you 100% of the time you really might want to scale back your expectations.
Last time i checked Mob Acc wasnt 100%.
ON another note, Id like to call for the devs to give all us lectric brute testers a level bump so we can test higher level survivability. Plus i wanna se the 38 power in action :P
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If you'll reread what I said, my assumption was you being *hit* 100 times. I said nothing about how many times the enemy swung at you.
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If you reread your post youll see that in your Defence Calculations youve had to assume that Acc was 100%.
Its the only way your post makes any sence. Flawed as it is.
Otherwise your whole measurement for the Defence side of the equation doesnt work. How can you measure it without the total amount of times swung?
"You know it takes more energy to Frown than it does to smile?
""You know it took more energy to point that out than to leave me alone..."
One of my personal favorite things about this set is Lightning Reflexes. No question about it. I've always loved Quickness, and to have an equivalent in Electric Armor makes me drool.
Grounded is the auto Energy/Negative Energy resist power. Lightning reflexes is the quickness clone.
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Grounded is the auto Energy/Negative Energy resist power. Lightning reflexes is the quickness clone.
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Thanks, Speqter. I can't believe I didn't realize that I got those powers transposed, but being stuck @ work for 20+ hours can do that.
Ergh... I'm getting some sleep under my cube... now.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
Good post, Tal_N. If the purpose behind Electric Armor is to provide players with a set that can give them some 'special' protections (i.e. end drain, teleportation, energy damage) that don't exist in other sets, at the expense of raw defenses, then I think you're exactly right.
That doesn't mean I'll play it. I think that in a game where the developers refuse to provide enough information in-game that players can make an informed decision about what they're playing, every powerset should be equally effective. Clearly that's not the case here with regards to the most common situations in the game. The same argument can be made for other sets as well, and that's the reason why I don't have a high level Ice blaster or Dark scrapper. When I realized that those sets didn't do a good job at what the AT is primarily focused on, I switched sets.
The solution to this may not be to fill the holes in the Electric set, but rather to give players better information up front. At character creation, when you're making choices that are irrevocable, things you can't change with respecs or anything else down the road. Sound familiar? It should, they're already providing better information about Patron Pools for the same reasons.
What kind of information would I like to see? How about a list of all the possible status effects, with highlights showing which powers protect from each, and which effects have no protection? How about real numbers on how much resistance/defense each power gives (or even some kind of graphical presentation for easy comparison between sets)? How about a way to see End cost?
Provide information like that when I'm making my irrevocable choice of powersets, and then sets like Electric make sense. Without it, a 'specialty' set like Electric is just a way to confuse and annoy players who aren't 'in the know' about its weaknesses.
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If you reread your post youll see that in your Defence Calculations youve had to assume that Acc was 100%.
Its the only way your post makes any sence. Flawed as it is.
Otherwise your whole measurement for the Defence side of the equation doesnt work. How can you measure it without the total amount of times swung?
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Ok, I cleared out the previous quotations so this doesn't take up a whole page.
You're correct. I hadn't taken into account the fact that defense is a percentage. *blush* I'd gotten a bit rusty in 4 months of no CoX.
If you're fighting an enemy with a 50% chance to hit, he'll hit you 100 times in 200 swings. You'll take the 5000 damage (or whatever, 50 damage per hit 100 hits). If you have 19.6% defense, his hit chance lowers to 30.4%. Then he'll hit you 60.8 times in 200 swings. You'll take 3040 damage. That makes invincibility even better than my previous (flawed) calculations showed. 19.6% defense makes you take more than 1/3 less damage at that point. 34.8% is even better. Then their to-hit is only 15.2%. You take 30.4 hits for a total of 1520 damage. You're basically taking 30% of the damage you would if you turned invincibility off. Plus it adds to your accuracy. It's an awesome awesome power.
It's not as good if the enemy has a higher base to-hit. Against enemies that have a 75% chance to hit you (base) it only mitigates about half of your incoming damage. Still awesome.
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.) - Whitman
Consistency is the defense of a small mind. - Beldin
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While from a Tank's perspective the set may be sub-par (not sure), the Brute's premium on run-speed and endurance-use makes this look like a winner, overall... so far.
Thanks,
-> Scott.
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QFT
Brutes get the most damage mitigation from knocking down/stuning/debuffing (touch of fear FTW!!)/defeating mobs. If you want Uber Defence in a toggle, Stone armor and head for Granite, or Dark Armor and run your 9 or 10 toggles and be untouchable. I'm all for it. Its not how I play my Brutes, and I suspect those who prefer active defence over passive defence will like ELA just fine. Those looking for the Uber defence juggernaught will load up on Pools and like ELA for the high resists and skip on some of the Utility, or try and get by on 4 attacks.
Till I see numbers on the whole set its tough to say, but on paper it looks like a decent set, that'll do very well in the late game.
i thought quickness was a different power
no i wanna keep that one
well swap out conserve power for this regen one then
So far I havein't had issues with the set (11th).
However I do like makeing up powers for no resion...
Ground Self (Click, Self Heal +imobl res, -Recharge +speed)
Not sure what it would replace, but again, I don't need a resion to make up powers.
My beef isn't with the lack of KB protection or the lack of a self heal. The only problem I have is that there is a lack of sources to gain such protection and from most of the complaints I've read this is the underlying reason a lot of others don't like Elec not having this kind of protection.
Manuevers is in need of a buff, maybe that's a place to start.
I posted all the numbers except grounded which is a passive and will probably be around 5%. But seeing as most on other sets are 5.625% I would probably think it would be the same or near that. With 3 damage resist in each armor, 41% smashing, lethal, psionic, fire, cold. 82% Energy and Negative with grounded will be 32% or so.
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the suggestion is that it only has the -jump and -fly, not the -speed
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Two things...this would affect speed as you can't jump away...even if you don't have SJ or Combat Jumping. This would also lock people more into picking up a non-leaping and non-flying travel power which...is one of the main reasons people are miffed about the set to begin with. They don't want to get locked into Leaping Pool.
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You're trying to tell us that a toggle locks people into certain powers, but it's fine that by not changing the power we would be locking people into SJ. Good logic.
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the suggestion is that it only has the -jump and -fly, not the -speed
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Two things...this would affect speed as you can't jump away...even if you don't have SJ or Combat Jumping. This would also lock people more into picking up a non-leaping and non-flying travel power which...is one of the main reasons people are miffed about the set to begin with. They don't want to get locked into Leaping Pool.
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You're trying to tell us that a toggle locks people into certain powers, but it's fine that by not changing the power we would be locking people into SJ. Good logic.
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No he's saying that you can't fix one problem by simultaneously opening up the exact same problem somewhere else. He didnt say it was fine, just that this is not the solution.
People are miffed that they have to take Leaping or Flying to get Knockback protection. They dont like being locked into Hover or Leaping. You can't fix it by giving them a power with -fly and -jump which would effectively lock them *out* of Flying and Leaping and into Teleport.
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the suggestion is that it only has the -jump and -fly, not the -speed
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Two things...this would affect speed as you can't jump away...even if you don't have SJ or Combat Jumping. This would also lock people more into picking up a non-leaping and non-flying travel power which...is one of the main reasons people are miffed about the set to begin with. They don't want to get locked into Leaping Pool.
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You're trying to tell us that a toggle locks people into certain powers, but it's fine that by not changing the power we would be locking people into SJ. Good logic.
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Its great logic. Anyways, I think others have reiterated the idiotic lack of utility this change represents and its nice to know that it also has idiotic proponents. Lets digress from idiocy and really take a look at how such a proposed toggle would work. You are super speeding or super jumping or flying...someone hits you with something with knockback and or immobilization...you hit the toggle...you start running away from the attacker but can't leap over the caltrop pit in the base or the million and one obstacles in any of the pvp zones or most of the mission instances...you detoggle...you get knocked back/down/up...you die. Yeah. Thats just great. Best thing is...this nor any other change suggested will ever happen. You are the weakest link, good bye.
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the suggestion is that it only has the -jump and -fly, not the -speed
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Two things...this would affect speed as you can't jump away...even if you don't have SJ or Combat Jumping. This would also lock people more into picking up a non-leaping and non-flying travel power which...is one of the main reasons people are miffed about the set to begin with. They don't want to get locked into Leaping Pool.
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You're trying to tell us that a toggle locks people into certain powers, but it's fine that by not changing the power we would be locking people into SJ. Good logic.
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No he's saying that you can't fix one problem by simultaneously opening up the exact same problem somewhere else. He didnt say it was fine, just that this is not the solution.
People are miffed that they have to take Leaping or Flying to get Knockback protection. They dont like being locked into Hover or Leaping. You can't fix it by giving them a power with -fly and -jump which would effectively lock them *out* of Flying and Leaping and into Teleport.
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It's a toggle, if you'd like to travel turn it off. As it is, if you want to stand up you take accro or hover/tp. With the toggle you can take any travel you want and avoid working up to accro.
Your e-tough attitude is not impressive and it's not having the effect you desire. I don't think you're smart or tough. I, in fact, am rather sure you're niether.
The toggle provides an option. You can take that to protect you from KB, or you can do the hover/TP or Accro thing. Leaving it as is means to stand up you have to do one of those two.
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You're trying to tell us that a toggle locks people into certain powers, but it's fine that by not changing the power we would be locking people into SJ. Good logic.
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No he's saying that you can't fix one problem by simultaneously opening up the exact same problem somewhere else. He didnt say it was fine, just that this is not the solution.
People are miffed that they have to take Leaping or Flying to get Knockback protection. They dont like being locked into Hover or Leaping. You can't fix it by giving them a power with -fly and -jump which would effectively lock them *out* of Flying and Leaping and into Teleport.
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It's a toggle, if you'd like to travel turn it off. As it is, if you want to stand up you take accro or hover/tp. With the toggle you can take any travel you want and avoid working up to accro.
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But the reality is that turning it off is not always an option, and in those circumstances you wont be able to get up a curb without Teleport, ask any Stone Tanker. You're creating exactly the same situation that you're seeking to resolve, that of locking players into a specific travel power option.
when is turning a toggle off not an option? it'd just be for knockback protection, and if you need the knockback protection, then you'd just have to live without jumping for a lil bit
Those are all (mostly) PvP concerns and be honest, PvE is by a large magin the biggest part of this game.
Also, there have been more than a few well-written posts in support of somethign along these lines, and the opposition is an angry, self-important, mal-content who is more concerned with attacking the other posters, not their arguments.
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when is turning a toggle off not an option? it'd just be for knockback protection, and if you need the knockback protection, then you'd just have to live without jumping for a lil bit
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Try traveling without knockback protection, you get in over your head and have to escape, turn off a toggle and then turn on travel power. By that time you are dead.
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when is turning a toggle off not an option? it'd just be for knockback protection, and if you need the knockback protection, then you'd just have to live without jumping for a lil bit
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Please play a stone tanker/brute with regularity if you think it's at all convenient and safe to run around with your status toggle off. Being locked to the ground is only trading one form of limit on travel power for another, it is in no way a solution and is actually worse than what is in place now - at least /electric has a choice between fly and leaping. Stone tank is VERY awkward to play and move around with a fast team without Teleport. Particularly in PVP areas, you would be whacko to turn off your status toggle for 10 seconds just to hop a 1 foot curb.
so get teleport if you never want to turn the status protection off, problem solved
you'd have more options though, instead of having to take acrobatics
How is "ONE" any more options than "ONE"? To apply your logic, "so just don't have any knockback protection, problem solved, instead of having to take teleport". Not any better at all than what's in place with the set currently.
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With the ability to fix the weaknesses in the set with just one powerpool I'd say its a fairly good trade to the number 1 killer of all brutes. A complete lack of endurance.
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Which one power pool would that be?
Remember, we're not just talking about a lack of knockback protection here. We're talking about a lock of knockback protection AND a lack of immobilization protection AND a lack of a self heal. That's a tricky combination of weaknesses to counter, and I don't see one pool that will do it.
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I'm not sure that I understand the set yet, having not played it past 12th.
Don't get me wrong - I complain about power-set inequalities better than anyone. However, I think that the current complaints are a little premature.
While it's annoying that the set doesn't have Immobilization protection, I consider KB to be a non-issue, since this set is arranged similarly to /Fire, and inherits /Fire's lack of protection.
Also, a self-heal, while nice, isn't really required.
The set DOES have Grounded, which is extremely nice, and the Endurance Drain protection along with the Endurance Drain powers is a nice combination.
While from a Tank's perspective the set may be sub-par (not sure), the Brute's premium on run-speed and endurance-use makes this look like a winner, overall... so far.
Once I get to SO's and have more of the higher-tier powers I'll be in better shape to give the final analysis.
Does anyone have a PvE-centric Level 20+ Elec/Elec Brute? If so, what are your findings?
Thanks,
-> Scott.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?