Official Thread for Brutes: Electric Shields
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 24:02 in Developers' Corner
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i would've liked yellow
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Can't we have a pretty rainbow color effect? Or maybe some mixed pastels?
Total Focus is a hold, right?
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just add +Res Knockbac, -Fly, -Jump to grounded =\ plzthxkluvubai
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Given that Grounded is an auto power that you can't turn off, I think that's a really bad idea to restrict your travel options in such a way.
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Now that makes Elec Brutes Superspeeders or Teleporters.
Total Focus is a hold, right?
dont ask for rainbow or you might get what happend to /inv, it's ugly black now
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I'd take it without the +regen...I just would like to not be falling down alot, and I really dislike super jump
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I don't necessarily dislike SJ, I just hate being forced into Leaping in order to make a viable build for my Brute/Tank. Defense powers belong in such a pool. Travel powers belong in a separate pool.
Total Focus is a hold, right?
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Why does it have to have knockback resistance? WHy does it have to have immobilize resistance? Shouldn't the set have inherent weaknesses that you could choose to cover with pools or ignore and play to the sets strength? Unlike ALL of the other sets it has -end resistance, thats its unique feature. They may make a change to the way end drain works to make this set look appealing. Not every defensive needs immobilize and knockback resist. That is what we have pools for. If they did have it inherently, this set would be better than Fire Aura in terms of protection in ALL regards, Fire doesnt get a move to speed them up it gets a Tanking move which we already proved brutes cannot do. Burn doesnt help fury and it doesnt have a god mode clicky that you can use anytime. you have to die first.
Stop whining about what you dont get, and look at what you do get.
-end resist, slow resist, +recharge speed, +running speed, Unstoppable like power, no self heal kinda sucks but aid other will work fine, we get a damage aura similar to Fire whihc is affected by fury but doesnt increase fury on its own, it is the ONLY set toget TP resistance, and an endurance recovery move.
I do feel you guys on the useless passive it seems fire suffers from this as well.
They could change it to a clicky knockback immob protection, like a inherant breakfree power that lasts for like 10 seconds or something with a 30 sec cooldown could be cool but it only works for Knockback and Immob. Just my thoughts on it.
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I think you're missing the point. The benefits you tout above do NOT outweigh the disadvantages of all of the holes and the cost of remediation of the holes is too great. That's the whole point here, IMO.
Total Focus is a hold, right?
First I'm not jumping on the band wagon, I have been in it since the information on the set has been released.
Second of all, with Grounded being a toggle, a player can still take the flight pool or leaping pool if they wish, all that needs to be done is to *gasp* turn off a toggle and activate their desired travel power.
You seem to have missed some other points as well. By proving this change, the healing would benefit the survivability of the set, and provide more freedom in character building.
After all, if a player doesn't want to take a regen toggle with kb protection because it has -jump or - fly and its too hard to take it and create some nice useful binds or macros for ease of use, then a player doesn't have too. They can use up more power slots to get that knock back protection.
The idea is that immoblization is easier to work around than knock back is. While, yes it would be nice to ask for and get both protections in the set, the idea I posted is sort of a comprimise between what is currently designed, and what many players have issues with what is designed.
OK I have to just speak up here about everyone moaning about Elec Armor needing this and that.
Lets look at this in the big picture rather than saying 'I want it to do THIS'. Each powerset needs to be induvidual to itself, it wouldn't be any fun to have 10 Energy Blasts which all behaved in the same way with maybe 1 or two signiture powers. Likewise armors have to be very induvidual as well. Additionally every powerset NEEDS to have a weakness and a strength. Without that there is no need to team as you have no limitations, armor in particular HAS to have holes within it.
Typically a powerset has a purpose, if a powerset breaks the purpose it takes penalties within to balance it out. A case example is Ice Blast. A primary for blasters is supposed to be about raw damage yet ice blast offers alot of control powers. As a penalty it suffers from mediocre AoE and heavy endurance costs. Fire armor is supposed to be a tanker primary intended for defence. Except it deals damage directly, as such it has weaknesses greater than normal because it breaks the purpose of what a primary tanker power is supposed to do.
Elec Armor is an interesting hybrid of abilities. Its more utility based than some sets plus it has direct damage potential. However alot of its powers are defensive in nature. You can see this balancing system in action. It has less damage potential than fire armor, so it offers higher protection than fire armor. However it offers more ultility than Invulnerability so it has less protection than invulnerability.
Now everyone compares alot of the armor sets to invul but I'll point out one simple fact. Invul is PURE PROTECTION with almost no utility. It only has one power which buffs something other than defence, health or resistance and that simply gives a moderate acc buff. So its amazing protection is because (a) it doesn't do anything beyond the purpose of the set and (b) it doesn't have utility powers or extra special protections.
I know knockback protection is something alot of people hate, but the fact is that in order to put it back in you'd need to lose something in return. Maybe alot in return, endurance drain protection seems most likely and perhaps teleport protection would have to go to since these are 'exotic' defences. Now some will say yes to stripping those out. But if you do then Elec Armor suddenly only has a few things to make it unique. The endurance reduction powers and a damage aura.
That might be enough, but lets be fair here. There is much defence against endurance drains so this set really stands out as special because of it, this will make enemies like MALTA, Carnies and Longbow a hell of alot easier. All things considered, I'd rather have a powerset with a hole I can fill with a powerpool than not have to take a powerpool but be completely unable to defend myself against endurance draining powers.
With the ability to fix the weaknesses in the set with just one powerpool I'd say its a fairly good trade to the number 1 killer of all brutes. A complete lack of endurance.
So lay off with wanting to turn the set into something less unique just because you don't like what its offering. If you want higher protection go make an invulnerability brute, its why the set exists. If you want to be a tanker go invul, if you want something different and more varied go elec.
Well said Tal_N. I pretty much agree with everything you said.
Except if you have to turn off grounded as a toggle to travel it means you can get hit with knockback as you are traveling, say an energy blaster knocking you out of the sky while you are traveling so you will take fall damage, not the best idea.
Nah, you are totally jumping on the bandwagon and your idea is little more than a compilation of other's wishful thinking. The build doesn't need healing and your suggestion plugs each and every hole except for immobilization. In effect, it would make a super speeder uber powerful yet incapable of fighting back against vertical opponents. It is completely illogical and highly unlikely that this build would recieve anything in any way similar to what you have suggested. As for being able to *gasp* turn off the power...when you don't get this power because your request is rediculous, you can *gasp* select leaping pool or *gasp* select other combinations to make you *gasp* not suck.
The concept I posted about a pseudo-phase would be something unique to the secondary, reducing combat effectiveness in exchange for some defense and immob and knockback resistance for a short time period. Even then, I would not choose it. Right now, it is possible to create a seriously powerful pve/pvper with /elec if you select SJ pool or the right combo of TP and Flight Pool.
*gasp* *whine*
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With the ability to fix the weaknesses in the set with just one powerpool I'd say its a fairly good trade to the number 1 killer of all brutes. A complete lack of endurance.
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Which one power pool would that be?
Remember, we're not just talking about a lack of knockback protection here. We're talking about a lock of knockback protection AND a lack of immobilization protection AND a lack of a self heal. That's a tricky combination of weaknesses to counter, and I don't see one pool that will do it.
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Well said Tal_N. I pretty much agree with everything you said.
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I second that. I am getting annoyed at the shere volume of people who are demanding for a generalized nerf of the better aspects of this secondary in return for something "eveyone else has...to a certain degree".
Leaping Pool and Medicine Pool ... the latter being something I would choose anyways because, well, aid self owns. If you rely soley on a 75 percent regen increase that keeps you pinned to the ground and can still get immobilized *gasp* you will still need aid self *gasp* LOL like my *gasp*? That guy whose name I have already forgotten likes to use this *gasp* ROFL....kind of fruity if you ask me.
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Leaping Pool and Medicine Pool ...
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Like I said... which one pool? That's two.
Personally I have one leaper, and that's enough. I'll find something else to go with Electric Melee.
I'm going to suggest replacing the current version of Grounded with a dull pain type power, plus energy/neg energy resist (or even defense?)
+Max HP, Heal, +Defense(all)
Something, anything, just put a heal in!
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Well said Tal_N. I pretty much agree with everything you said.
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I second that. I am getting annoyed at the shere volume of people who are demanding for a generalized nerf of the better aspects of this secondary in return for something "eveyone else has...to a certain degree".
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/thirded.
More options = Better.
Ways around "gaps" in the Electric Armor set.
Immobilize:
1. Combat Jumping
2. Weave
3. Teleport
Knockback:
1. Acrobatics
2. Hover/Flight
The leaping pool sure is effeciant for covering those holes, but Hover/Teleport or Hover/Weave or Hover/Combat Jumping will do it as well. Lots of ways to fill in the gaps in your protection if you choose to.
Anyone who feels "pigeon-holed" into the leaping pool, can look at other options. Several exist, pick your favorite.
Aid Self is a supperior heal to many of the self heals in other Brute secondaries, 3 slotted health is decent + regen.
Pink, personally, I do not appreciate your accusational comments about me and certain bandwagons.
They are misrepresentation of my involvement in this, and other threads about this power set.
That said, after testing this set, I can easliy tell that the negatives far outweigh the positives. Comparitively speaking, the durability of this set is starting to appear to have the lowerst performance of all the Brute secondaries.
Quite simply, this set has no way to deal with the amount of damage it allows the user to take in. It doesn't in away provide enough of a benefit in either damage or speed for defeating an enemy to offset the amount of damage that gets through.
To quote myself, here are the possibilities for dealing with the holes in this set:
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No healing: Green inspirations, Aid self (2 power slots, 4 or 5 additional enhancement slots)
No immoblization protection: Breakfree inspirations, Leaping pool; Combat jumping (1 power slot) or Hover + TP (3 power slots, plus at least 2 additional enhancement slots in TP)
No knockback protection: No inspirations available, Leaping pool; Acrobatics (3 power slots) or Hover (1 power slot, possible 2 additional enhancement slots for movement as desired)
So, knockback is the most easily dealt with, except it has no inspirations to help it. You can get away with just hover, or go with acrobatics.
Immoblization requires the most sacrifice in terms of power slotting (or matches knockback if you go acro for both). But offers 2 viable and different paths for building.
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Without some form of additional mitigation, this set will be dependant upon carrying greens and / or breakfrees (depending of you bother to build to protect yourself against knock back).
High end zones and missions will definitely either create a dependance upon steady inspiration use, or dependence upon teaming with the right AT combinations.
If you don't bother to do anything about knock back, it will not be fun. I have seen for myself what having no knock back is like and seen other players even at the high end game of CoH take a melee build with no knock back protection and die due to constant flopping.
Now, if this secondary had a way of significantly reducing a targets endurance so that targets couldn't attack, then you have something different.
Lightning field and powersink combined won't do it though, and even if they were changed so they could, waiting until level 37 is way too late.
Nah. You are wrong. From what I have seen it is a great secondary. As noted above, there are many options available to fill the holes. You obviously don't put much stock in aidself, maybe you have never used it or just want a kind of heal that is brainlessly easy to use but inferior in almost every other way to aid self. As stated before, I hope they don't change a single thing. That is, aside from some of the graphical issues related to the damage shield and maybe switch conserve power around with power sink.
To Devs...please don't change any of the weaknesses or strengths this secondary has to offer. You are doing a great job and I can't wait to play this on a life server.
I would figure nothing about the set will change except if there are bugs. Which means use a set that works or spend the extra 3 - 5 pool power selections and 5+ slots to plug the holes. Run the 6 - 7 toggles you need to run to work. At least you should be able to have 3 - 4 attacks and maybe with Stamina you will be able to fight.
I am planning on attempting the Combat Jumping, Acrobatics with Aid Self... no idea where I am going to get the slots for Aid Self
I know aid self is a great power and once it is slotted with at least 2 interupt time SO's it could be used pretty reliably even by any set with no defense.
Yet, it is the only way to mitigate that incomming damage. You coult take tough, but Aid self outperforms it.
The problem is that Aid self is the only power to really do this. It demands that you set aside 2 power slots and at least 4 enhacement slots for it to be effective. Its appearance is a complete disregard for origins such as magic.
Otherwise, one would have to be completely dependent upon having greens or teaming with certain powersets.
At least with knock back and immoblization, there are 2 sperate ways to go about bulding to fill those holes, both of which require minimal loss of enhancement slots. But at a significant cost of power slots.
It is the combination of both have to take 3 power slots for resolving both knock back and immobliczation AND 2 more power slots for healing that isn't right.
No other set that Brutes use require one to go so much out their way for set.
Of course one could attempt to argue that /Fire Brutes can end up going with Stamina, Acrobatics, and Tough, a use of 8 power slots.
Yet, considering that the s/l resists between /Fire and /ELA are so similar, the rebuttle would of course say that if it is a ncessity for Fire to use tough, then so it is for /ELA.
So, disregarding Tough at the moment, /ELA will need to make use of Stamina as well. Perhaps it may be possible to respec out at level 37, by putting end reductions in every click power (including all attacks) and every toggle, and taking both power sink 6 slotted and CP 3 slotted.
But I doubt, it will work well for long fights especially when there are not a significant about of opponents like AVs.
So then setting aside both stamina and tough, you have a set that has to use more power slot options to fill its gaps comparitively with any other set to deal with situations that are the most common throughout the game.
Thats the flaw in the design of this set.
I agree there is some merit to individuality among the sets, and I'm not advocating changing that.
People should remember that this set is in testing, meaning it isn't necesarily balanced.
I'm not for plugging all the holes. My question for now is: are the benefits it recieves enough for the holes it has?
If we compare average unslotted resists (among the resist based sets we see)
Fire- 22.5%
DA- 24.6%
Elec-26.7% (assuming 26.5 for each toggle and 7.5 for the passive)
So it has slightly higher average resistances.
Let's compare benefits
<ul type="square">
Fire.....................DA.....................El ec
-No psi res...........+Psi res.............+Psi res
+Toxic res...........+Toxic res..........-No toxic
+Damage aura.....+Damage aura......+Damage aura
-No TP res...........-No TP res...........+Tp res
-No fear res.........+Fear res...........-No fear res
-No KB/KD...........-No KB/KD...........-No KB/KD
-Immob res..........+Immob res.........-Immob res
+Self heal............+Self heal...........-No self heal
+End recovery.....-End recovery........++End recovery
-Crowd Cont........++CC...................-CC
-Stealth...............+Stealth..............-Stealth
++dam(FE, burn)..-Bonus damage......-Bonus damage
-Slow resists........-Slow resists.........+Slow resists
-End drain res......+End drain res........+End drain res
-Debuff................+Debuff (-Acc)......-Debuff[/list]
This adds up to
Fire 6 +'s, 10 -'s
DA 11 +'s, 5 -'s
Elec 7 +'s, 9 -'s
Now this is just straght adding. I could skew the numbers with interpretation by saying a heal is worth 2 +'s, the second end recovery isn't worth any +, the slow resist couldn't be very much at all..no + for it. Also that fire's 2 +'s for bonus damage aren't worth anything as is. That the 7 toggles DA has in it's primary are a -.
Then I'd get
Fire 5 +'s, 10 -'s
DA 12 +'s, 6 -'s
Elec 5 +'s, 9's
But those numbers aren't entirely accurate.
My concern isn't that I get the most awesome set possible. I want a set, that while it's still in testing, can be brought up to be balanced with the other sets (not fire though....).
I believe without at least one of the holes of the set being plugged (I'd like if it was the healing hole, but I like SJ) that this set will lag behind other sets. I'm using these observations because while I will test out the elec brute, without a level bump I will not reach a high enough threat level to extensively test this set. (it's been 6 months and I've got 1 lvl 40).
from Tal_N
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I know knockback protection is something alot of people hate, but the fact is that in order to put it back in you'd need to lose something in return. Maybe alot in return, endurance drain protection seems most likely and perhaps teleport protection would have to go to since these are 'exotic' defences. Now some will say yes to stripping those out. But if you do then Elec Armor suddenly only has a few things to make it unique. The endurance reduction powers and a damage aura.
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I'd argue that is only the case if the set had the right benefit to hole ratio to start with. I haven't proven that it's not that way already but I don't feel that by removing 1 (e.g. KB protection, a heal, or add +regen to a power) of the sets weakness this set would be unbalanced.
Since this set is still in being balanced there is no need to give and take to maintain balance. EA was found underperforming and was given a buff. If elec is underperforming it should recieve a buff in some way to raise it up not shift weaknesses around. Preserve the uniquiness that's there. If the set is lacksingadd too it.
Nice post there. In all honesty, I really do like the set as is. It is unique, it has some neat things to it, and I really like the look. The thing I am most worried about is the lack of any sort of healing.
Sure I can take Aid Self, but that basically means that I can't take two other powers that I was really wanting to take. Not to mention a heavy expendature of slots. Sure I can group with someone who is capable of healing, but that basically means that I can't solo, which is what I am most inclined to doing, and specifically what I was planning on doing with my Elec/Elec Brute.
Knockback, for me personally, is less of an issue since I had been planning on going the leaping route way before we had any details on the powersets. It just means I need to take one additional power over the two I was already taking. Another easy counter to this is the flight pool, which requires less powers than leaping.
It is entirely possible that I might be able to get away without Stamina, but probably not until at least level 35. And even then I'm not certain. Electric Brutes do have the best possibility of not needing Stamina from what I can tell, but Brutes in general need to not have to even think about End problems.
That's why I originally felt that a minor (ie, Health level or below) Regen boost added to one of the powers (I was suggesting Grounded since it's passive) would help. It's not much, but it's something that could at least extend the duration that you could fight. I still think that something along those lines would be best. It would keep the uniqueness and it would reduce one of the holes. A Dull Pain type power would be great, but there's really nothing that I would want to get rid of for it, with the possible exception of Conserve Power. A self heal is similar.
I know for a fact that I won't be able to get to the later powers in the set before the Issue goes live. I'm too busy with work (lots of overtime happening nowadays) and I don't have enough time personally to test this as well as I might want to. So I could very easily be completely incorrect about the survivability of this set as it currently stands. I'm fine with that, and I hope I am. I'm prepared to not be though, which is why I'm willing to listen to and make suggestions for the eventuality of it needing some sort of boost.
i really wish grounded was what someone suggested, a toggle with medium end cost that did -fly, -jump, and +regen and knockback protection
i'd play the set if it had this, otherwise i'll roll a elec/stone or /EA or something (would've picked /inv but its ugly black now)
If I were only to make one suggestion to the set, please make our AoE drain earilier. Switch it with lightning feild, switch it with grounded, switch it with Lightning Reflexs, push conserve power back to 35...
We're supposed to get powers in order of how often we'll use them, to get our bread and butter stuff first.
Our endurance drain will be somthing we depend on for effiency. In accordence to current design philosophy, we should get it much sooner.
Idealy, it would be at level 20, to keep in line with the magical endurance level that most other ATs play by. Really, the set dosen't need conserve power. It needs knock back protection and immoblize protection, or a self heal.
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Not exactly. Invuln has invincibility. There have been many long posts analysing why the defense from invincibility is like 70% of the set's survivability. Adding Dull Pain would still leave Elect armour as an entirely resist set. *shrug* Whatever.
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What's a polite way to call bull*#@%?
"70% of the sets survivablity?" In what possible situation? PvE-ing an army of white minions maybe. But not against mobs teams actually fight or in any situations I reguarly encountered. I respec'd out of Invincibility because IMO it was a waste of endurance. This may change with the recalculation of DEF in I7. I'll reserve judgement. It will remain the same for PvP.
The more I think about /Elec, the more I think it's a well balanced set. Even with the sin of limiting travel power diversity.
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If you'd like me to drag the numbers wizards over here, I can. The defense from invincibility is a huge portion of Invuln's survivability. Huge. It's much much better than any of the passives.
If you're hit 100 times for 100 damage each time and all you have is 50% resistance, you'll take 100 x 50 damage or 5000 damage. If you have even 5 enemies in range with Invincibility on, (assuming it's 3 slotted with def SOs) you get 24.6% defense to anything you have resists to. Subtract Unyielding's penalty and you have 19.6% defense.
Then you'll only be hit 80.4 times. You still have 50% resist. That means you'll take 4020 damage. Instead of 5000. That's almost 1/5 less damage. If you have the full 10 enemies in range, it adds 15.2% more defense. You'll end up taking more than 1/3 less damage. From one power. Plus it boosts your accuracy. "Waste of Endurance" indeed.
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If your fighting an army of things that hit you 100% of the time you really might want to scale back your expectations.
Last time i checked Mob Acc wasnt 100%.
ON another note, Id like to call for the devs to give all us lectric brute testers a level bump so we can test higher level survivability. Plus i wanna se the 38 power in action :P
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If you'll reread what I said, my assumption was you being *hit* 100 times. I said nothing about how many times the enemy swung at you.
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.) - Whitman
Consistency is the defense of a small mind. - Beldin