Why can't we be friends? (Pocket D QoL)

Stealth_Bomber · 02-11-2006 05:44 PM

So Pocket D is a lot of fun. But there are a few problems in teaming with villains:

1. You can't give a villain an inspiration. Now, I think I've seen Superman give "inspiration" to just about everyone, even Lex Luthor. I don't see why this isn't possible.

2. You can't add a villain to your Friends list. So, Batman and Catwoman aren't "friends"? Yes, I know you can add them to Global friends, but come on.

3. And the worst of all, if you leave Pocket D just to go train or sell enhancements, you get kicked from your team! So make War Witch a trainer, and let the bartenders buy as well as sell. Or let me stay on the team, it's hard enough to put one together!

Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide

Full_Metal_Geek · 02-11-2006 06:16 PM

/signed

All of it.

Teklord · 02-11-2006 10:02 PM

Those are all good points.
-Teklord

Quantum_Paradox · 02-11-2006 10:10 PM

1) That's been adressed by a Dev, I'll dig up the post after this. The idea was that A) Inspirations were immaterial, and that Heroes and Vilains don't often inspire each other and B) there will eventually be Hero- and Villain-only inspirations, which will be unbalanced if used by the opposite side.

2) There's a suggestion relating to this in the first few pages of the Suggestions and Ideas forum (Enemy List or something like that).

FistOfJustice · 02-12-2006 01:05 AM

I don't think it's supposed to be easy to do hero/villian team-ups. THESE PEOPLE ARE THE ENEMY, REMEMBER?!

Captain_Napalm · 02-12-2006 01:59 AM

The inspiration deal, eh, not that big, especially with the reasoning for future hero/villian specific inspirations.

Friend list also not so big of a deal as the only place you can team with them is in Pocket D. Global seems to work well enough.

But #3, the training and selling of enhancements in Pocket D, would be extremely beneficial. I love how you worked it too, with WW training and the bartenders buying. They wouldn't even have to buy at full price maybe like 75% of full sell price for every origin so its not exploitable. And it is pretty tough rounding up a team from both sides and is a pain when you have to drop one just to sell or train.

MoonliteKnight · 02-12-2006 05:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1) That's been adressed by a Dev, I'll dig up the post after this. The idea was that A) Inspirations were immaterial, and that Heroes and Vilains don't often inspire each other and B) there will eventually be Hero- and Villain-only inspirations, which will be unbalanced if used by the opposite side.

[/ QUOTE ]

A) That's ridiculous, no matter what a red name says and B) If there are faction specific inspirations coming, they can make them untradeable, making the balancing issue moot.

[ QUOTE ]
2) There's a suggestion relating to this in the first few pages of the Suggestions and Ideas forum (Enemy List or something like that).

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as this post belongs in the Suggestion forums.

Frost · 02-12-2006 07:18 AM

Who knows how the inspiration system is designed. Maybe it would take rewriting the whole thing in order to make it so certain types of inspirations can be traded and certain types can't. Maybe it's not that involved. Either way, I'd personally prefer them to work on fixing bugs

Great_Beyond · 02-12-2006 11:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So Pocket D is a lot of fun. But there are a few problems in teaming with villains:

1. You can't give a villain an inspiration. Now, I think I've seen Superman give "inspiration" to just about everyone, even Lex Luthor. I don't see why this isn't possible.

2. You can't add a villain to your Friends list. So, Batman and Catwoman aren't "friends"? Yes, I know you can add them to Global friends, but come on.

3. And the worst of all, if you leave Pocket D just to go train or sell enhancements, you get kicked from your team! So make War Witch a trainer, and let the bartenders buy as well as sell. Or let me stay on the team, it's hard enough to put one together!

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I would also further add: put villians on the Looking For Team list (only in that zone). It is SO hard to put together a team when all you can see is the good guys LFT.

Cantatus · 02-12-2006 12:26 PM

The inspiration thing is understandable to me if they're going to add villain/hero-only inspirations.

Adding to the friend list, however, is one of those things that's annoyed me since I found out about. Sure, I can't team with them or whatever, but it'd be nice to be able to see if one of my friends is playing CoV instead of CoH, so I can switch over to join him. I understand I can do it with Global Friends, but that isn't nearly as convenient as it doesn't tell you when a person logs on through Global. I don't like having to keep checking my Global Friend list just to see if my friend is playing the opposite game. I really don't see what problems this would cause either as long as they made it so a hero has to get confirmation to add a villain to their friendlist and vice versa.

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed. I would also further add: put villians on the Looking For Team list (only in that zone). It is SO hard to put together a team when all you can see is the good guys LFT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I noticed that one myself. The only thing you can do to form a group in Pocket D is just to shout for people since you have no way of seeing anyone on the opposite team that's LFT.

Positron · 02-12-2006 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2. You can't add a villain to your Friends list. So, Batman and Catwoman aren't "friends"? Yes, I know you can add them to Global friends, but come on.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a couple of exploits that would be associated with this if we let it happen.

[ QUOTE ]
3. And the worst of all, if you leave Pocket D just to go train or sell enhancements, you get kicked from your team! So make War Witch a trainer, and let the bartenders buy as well as sell. Or let me stay on the team, it's hard enough to put one together!

[/ QUOTE ]

We will probably slip in some NPCs who can buyback Enhancements at somepoint, but the trainer issue is a little more difficult from a technical standpoint.

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MagicFlyingHippy · 02-12-2006 01:30 PM

How about letting Hero Supergroups and Villain Supergroups coalition? I can't imagine any kind of exploit there that isn't already available through global chat.

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MrElSalvador · 02-12-2006 01:39 PM

When asking a "why can't" question, I would first ask a "why would heroes and villains..." question. Why would heroes and villains form a permanent coalition?

Uncognitive · 02-12-2006 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So Pocket D is a lot of fun. But there are a few problems in teaming with villains:

1. You can't give a villain an inspiration. Now, I think I've seen Superman give "inspiration" to just about everyone, even Lex Luthor. I don't see why this isn't possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can buy temp powers from the "named" Pocket D bartenders that allow you to heal your teammates (villain or hero), or boost their defense or attack power. This doesn't cover Awakens, in which case you can always try and find a teammate with a rez power, or make sure everyone's stocked with an Awaken before the mission.

Ambience · 02-12-2006 01:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When asking a "why can't" question, I would first ask a "why would heroes and villains..." question. Why would heroes and villains form a permanent coalition?

[/ QUOTE ]

An RP reason would be collusion for PR. Some heroes and villains coordinate events such that the villains can look menacing, and the heroes look good trying to take them down. Then they kind of let each other get a hit in once and a while, and let their PR with their fellow heroes or villains rise.

In a practical reason though, it would be to coordinate pvp. You could have a nemesis coalition, where you could coordinate base raids, or SG/VG battles in pvp zones. Yeah, you can try to use the forums, but not everyone reads the forums. Or you could add a global friend with an opponent in a pvp zone, but it's hard to coordinate VG/SG battles when you only know one person in the opposing group.

PlagueOfUndeath · 02-12-2006 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

We will probably slip in some NPCs who can buyback Enhancements at somepoint, but the trainer issue is a little more difficult from a technical standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]
Add arbiter uh...Paul to the villain's side, make war witch the hero trainer
i think that'd work?

Stargazer · 02-12-2006 02:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

We will probably slip in some NPCs who can buyback Enhancements at somepoint, but the trainer issue is a little more difficult from a technical standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]
Add arbiter uh...Paul to the villain's side, make war witch the hero trainer
i think that'd work?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the issue is this.
From a "concept" point of view, there would "have to" be one Hero trainer and one Villain trainer (Security and Threat levels are "story-wise" "faction dependant", can't very well have a "neutral" trainer giving both). So there would have to be one Hero trainer and one Villain trainer. That would be very well unless for one thing.
Trainers currently don't care what faction you are a member of.
Walk a villain up to Ms Liberty, and she'll gladly train you. (A couple of my villains were trained by Ms Liberty in Beta)
Currently they avoid that issue by not allowing villains to enter areas where hero trainers are placed (and the other way around).
If there was a hero trainer and a villain trainer in the same area on the other hand...

Octavius · 02-12-2006 03:03 PM

I just remembered something that was too funny at the time..

I was in Pocket D, scrambling to find a hero who would team with me so I could see what these new missions were all about and of course, see if I could stand being around a hero with puking

So everything was going kinda slow until a lvl 8 scrapper /b that she was looking for a team. I invited her and we decided to give it a go.... At this point I feel the need to explain that i'm a lvl 34 MM. so unless I wanted to solo my mish and have her hide until the cauldren was clear I had to do something...

On a whim I suggested that I would lacky her so she could help out... We weren't sure if the option would work, so I right clicked on her and lo and behold there was the option to Invite her to be my Lackey...

So I invite and she accepts and bam! she's now my lackey. It was at that point I felt the need to point out...

"Im now offically tutoring you in the ways of EVIL"

On a more serious note, should villians and heros be able to lackey, ma, sidekick and examplar each other?? They can't even be civil enough to 'trade' inspirational stories but I can take a young hero or be taken under the wing of a more powerful hero to gain temporary power....

Hrm...??

Sleepy_Kitty · 02-12-2006 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
We will probably slip in some NPCs who can buyback Enhancements at somepoint, but the trainer issue is a little more difficult from a technical standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

o.o?!? really? didn't have a problem with that in beta, we'd hope over to atlas and have Ms. Lib train us.. I have pics to prove it! We even got silly at that and had each of the zone trainers training various villains and having them tell us to go out and commit more villainy...

>.> only problem I can see you having is storywise.. you'd need someone who was nuetral..

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GhostLancer · 02-12-2006 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When asking a "why can't" question, I would first ask a "why would heroes and villains..." question. Why would heroes and villains form a permanent coalition?

[/ QUOTE ]
For me, it's not a matter of the coalition, but the cross base access it provides. It allows for "safe" interactions between heroes and villains in associated groups (contrary to what the PvP zones would have you believe, comic heroes and villains rarely just charge at each other yelling). Raids are less than ideal for this because of the raid mechanic limitations (like the time limit), and Pocket D (while I love it, mucho thanks to the devs) is by nature an exceedingly public area which means a particularly important scene between archrivals can be interrupted by a bunch of geniuses from either side deciding they want to pile on.

A better question when restricting options is "what good does restricting this do versus what harm not restricting it does?" Hero/Villain SG coalitions have zero potential for exploits (I've spent quite a while trying to think of one) and they make RP much easier and more enjoyable. I can't think of a single good reason for denying them (not even fluff, since hero groups and villain groups rountinely join together to battle this and that).

Savvy · 02-12-2006 04:33 PM

My only complaint has been that the default to global when talking to members of the opposing alignment ( ) seems to have been turned off when on the same server. So when I was heroing on Liberty and tried to invite my buddy who was villaining, it kept defaulting to her character name instead of her global. Again, this is easy enough to solve with a little extra typing, but it's extra typing when the global would get the job done.

But that's me.

Trevyc · 02-12-2006 04:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. You can't add a villain to your Friends list. So, Batman and Catwoman aren't "friends"? Yes, I know you can add them to Global friends, but come on.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a couple of exploits that would be associated with this if we let it happen.

[ QUOTE ]
3. And the worst of all, if you leave Pocket D just to go train or sell enhancements, you get kicked from your team! So make War Witch a trainer, and let the bartenders buy as well as sell. Or let me stay on the team, it's hard enough to put one together!

[/ QUOTE ]

We will probably slip in some NPCs who can buyback Enhancements at somepoint, but the trainer issue is a little more difficult from a technical standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is the trainer idea an issue? Heroes can go train at a hero trainer.. and villians can go train at a villian trainer. Thats what happens in coh/cov.. why not in Pocket D?

Celtic_NA · 02-12-2006 04:53 PM

Personally, I just think that DJ Zero should be a trainer/contact.

RP wise, he likes both the villains and the heroes, and he'd be willing to help people out as such.

Technically, though, it would most likely be hard to do.

Trevyc · 02-12-2006 04:57 PM

If someone like Mynx was placed on the hero side of Pocket D.. she could be strictly Hero oriented. Same for villians and one of their trainers. If a villian were to talk to the Pocket D Mynx, she wouldn't allow them to train but instead tell the villian about the villian trainer.

Is that a technical issue as well?

Monkey_King · 02-12-2006 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How is the trainer idea an issue? Heroes can go train at a hero trainer.. and villians can go train at a villian trainer. Thats what happens in coh/cov.. why not in Pocket D?

[/ QUOTE ]
Internally, all trainers are the same thing; it just gives you different text based on whether you're hero or villain. As some people mentioned earlier, a villain can go up to Ms. Liberty and gain a level, then be sent off with a "Get out there and do some villainy!" It's just too much extra work to code a "lock" into the trainers, when heroes and villains can't meet each other's trainers to begin with.

A neutral trainer could be devised, but from a RP perspective it would make no sense. This person would have to have the authority to both increase someone's security level in Paragon City (not permission that is handed out lightly, as it's only the trusted signature heroes who can do this), as well as be qualified to increase a villains threat level (also not given out lightly, as only Recluse's arbiters may do this). Who could possibly be trusted to have such permissions for BOTH sides?

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