Why, after 2 years, is Barrage still horrible?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2006-02-10 13:24 in Tankers
Well, it's definitely not the worst attack in the game, but it is a little sucky. Then again, most tier 1 attacks are sucky. Shouldn't it tell them something when the only people who even have their tier 1 attack powers are Tankers and Defenders, because they have no choice?
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Well, it's definitely not the worst attack in the game, but it is a little sucky. Then again, most tier 1 attacks are sucky. Shouldn't it tell them something when the only people who even have their tier 1 attack powers are Tankers and Defenders, because they have no choice?
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Even for a tier 1 power, Barrage is horrible. It has the lowest brawl index all tanker required attacks. In addition, it is slower than the other one it ties with. I'm not asking for it to be great. I don't want to swap bonesmasher into the 1st slot. I just want the BI to be on par with other powers that you get initially which have a 2 second activation.
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There's just no excuse for this power to be so lame.
Act: 2
BI: 1.3888 sm/.5 en (1.8888 total)
Horrible.
Let's look at comparable powers, either pool powers available without prerequisites or first powers for other tanker primaries:
Gash is better
Scorch is better
Frozen Fists is better
Stone Fist is better
Jab is better (Although jab is as weak, but has a much faster activation)
Bash is better
Air Superiority is better
Boxing and Kick: both better
Flurry, believe it or not, is better from a dps standpoint (act 3/bi 3.18)
In short: Barrage is the worst attack in the entire game. Fix it, please.
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Is it because the upper tier powers are so good? 
Honestly I would be VERY careful in asking for the Devs to look into this set at this point. I do not believe you or many of my fellow Tankers would be very pleased with the results. If Barrage is boosted you can be darned sure that something else will get dropped.
I LIKE Barrage ... if for no other reason than its unique look. Meh.
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I LIKE Barrage ... if for no other reason than its unique look. Meh.
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It IS okay to have cool looking powers that don't suck.
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Is it because the upper tier powers are so good?
Honestly I would be VERY careful in asking for the Devs to look into this set at this point. I do not believe you or many of my fellow Tankers would be very pleased with the results. If Barrage is boosted you can be darned sure that something else will get dropped.
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That's not a bad theory. But a lot of tanker secondaries are harder to compare at the top, since they get big AOEs, like Foot Stomp or Crowd Control.
Seismic Smash, for example, is pretty comparable. Really, Seismic is actually better than anything but ET, and ET does self-damage. Likewise, fire melee gets 3 aoe attack, 2 of which are quite good. Energy, meanwhile, is stuck with whirling hands, which also sucks.
Really, while ET is awesome and Total Focus is good, they aren't good enough to justify Barrage being so bad. If we're looking at the set as a whole, I'd point to how feeble whirling hands is also, as well how an attack like stun is pretty bad. (Even compared to Stone Melee, often considered the worst secondary, Stun is less useful in EM, simply because it is more redundant; most of Stone is doing KB/KU, but EM is already disorienting right and left, so Stun is generally not worth it, unless you like to spend a lot of time in Siren's Call)
What I always like in posts like this is that people only look at the brawl index, and not factors like power recharge/activation time, or endurance cost.
So I'm going to do something I rarely do, and back up my words with a factual avalanche. Presented below is a table of every tanker melee first power's brawl index, activation + recharge time, and endurance spent.
Ratios are presented in 'brawl index' damage points per second, and 'brawl index' damage points per endurance point cost.
barrage: 1.8888 bi
barrage: 3.33 seconds (activate + recharge)
barrage: 3.536 end
damage/time ratio: .56
damage/end ratio: .53
bash: 2.7778 bi
bash: 5.37 seconds (activate + recharge)
bash: 5.2 end
damage/time ratio: .51
damage/end ratio: .53
frozen fist: 2.3334 bi
frozen fist: 4.33 seconds (activate + recharge)
frozen fist: 4.368 end
damage/time ratio: .54
damage/end ratio: .53
gash: 2.7778 bi
gash: 5.83 seconds (activate + recharge)
gash: 5.2 end
damage/time ratio: .48
damage/end ratio: .53
scorch: 3.1667 bi
scorch: 4.67 seconds (activate + recharge)
scorch: 4.368 end
damage/time ratio: .67
damage/end ratio: .72
jab: 1.8889 bi
jab: 3.07 seconds (activate + recharge)
jab: 3.536 end
damage/time ratio: .61
damage/end: .53
stone fist: 2.7778 bi
stone fist: 4.57 seconds (activate + recharge)
stone fist: 5.2 end
damage/time ratio: .60
damage/end: .53
As you can see here barrage is clearly not the worst 'first tier' tanker secondary. In fact it's not bad at all - it just SEEMS like it if you only count the damage numbers, and don't tally in overall damage over time.
It sits in the middle of the range of the seven level 1 tanker secondary powers, and doesn't do solely smash or lethal damage like mace or battle axe. If ANY first level tanker secondary needs a buff, it's Gash - not barrage.
* of course this assumes the values i pulled from my planner are correct. if not, i'll fix that later and eat my words if I must. but regardless.
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Seismic Smash, for example, is pretty comparable. Really, Seismic is actually better than anything but ET, and ET does self-damage.
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Seismic is better than Total Focus? I don't think so. I think it's identical, as is Knockout Blow.
ET is what defines the Energy set just as Rage defines Super Strength. But the real jaw-dropper is ET AFTER you've just unloaded with Total Focus.
Barrage is a fine power. I had it on auto for close to 30 levels. No complaints here.
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Is it because the upper tier powers are so good?
Honestly I would be VERY careful in asking for the Devs to look into this set at this point. I do not believe you or many of my fellow Tankers would be very pleased with the results. If Barrage is boosted you can be darned sure that something else will get dropped.
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That's not a bad theory. But a lot of tanker secondaries are harder to compare at the top, since they get big AOEs, like Foot Stomp or Crowd Control.
Seismic Smash, for example, is pretty comparable. Really, Seismic is actually better than anything but ET, and ET does self-damage. Likewise, fire melee gets 3 aoe attack, 2 of which are quite good. Energy, meanwhile, is stuck with whirling hands, which also sucks.
Really, while ET is awesome and Total Focus is good, they aren't good enough to justify Barrage being so bad. If we're looking at the set as a whole, I'd point to how feeble whirling hands is also, as well how an attack like stun is pretty bad. (Even compared to Stone Melee, often considered the worst secondary, Stun is less useful in EM, simply because it is more redundant; most of Stone is doing KB/KU, but EM is already disorienting right and left, so Stun is generally not worth it, unless you like to spend a lot of time in Siren's Call)
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Energy Transfer, Total Focus, and Bonesmasher are three of the best Tanker attacks in the entire game. If you're going for single target burst dmg you'd be hard pressed to do better. The price Energy Melee pays for this is that it's lacking a bit a bit in AoE attacks (1 less than most sets) and it's first power is very low dmg.
And your comment about Seismic Smash being better than anything but ET is incorrect. Seismic Smash was recently buffed so that it would be brought up to the same level as Total Focus, before that it was worse. It still is if you consider that Total Focus is half energy dmg while Seismic Smash is purely smashing dmg. And then Energy melee still has ET on top of that. The energy melee set has *two single target attacks that are arguably better than anything in all of Stone melee, and most other sets as well.
Okay, first, take Swipe from the Claws powerset, then come back and talk to me about bad animations. Good? Good.
Second, your numbers aren't accurate. Barrage animates in less than 1.4 seconds. It is faster than Mace's Bash or Axe's Gash or Fire's Scorch, and the same speed as Frozen Fists. It, admittedly, does not do the damage of the above. Still makes it a good tanking tool when you're waiting for everything else to recharge.
While, damage per animation time-wise, it doesn't compare too well to Scorch, it's still significantly better than Brawl, nevermind Flurry or Jump Kick.
Sure, it could have the recharge increased to three seconds, which would put it equal with Frozen Fists exactly. Except you'd likely have some rebalancing to other powers in the Energy Melee to better match other sets and their animation times. And I'd rather not do that.
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What I always like in posts like this is that people only look at the brawl index, and not factors like power recharge/activation time, or endurance cost.
So I'm going to do something I rarely do, and back up my words with a factual avalanche. Presented below is a table of every tanker melee first power's brawl index, activation + recharge time, and endurance spent.
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Your analysis is disingenuous or ignorant. Activation time and BI are what matter for these powers at higher levels. Recharge times and end costs are basically irrelevent (not for all powers; but for powers in this tier). We could poll /En tanks about trading up to a BI of 2.778 in return for 5.5sec rech and 5.4 end. I'd expect near 100% to be in favor.
Some powers still have a use at higher levels, especially in builds which are hard pressed to free up power slots to take extra attacks, but Barrage just can't find a home in a build. The damage is too small to be relevent.
Let me get this straight.
You're saying that the simple truth that you can do more damage with barrage over time than three other level one tanker powers is irrelevant?
That I'm 'ignorant' for pointing out these little things like 'facts' and 'numbers' that disagree with your point of view?
You will make an excellent politician some day. If you can't handle anyone disagreeing with you, much less proving you wrong, why do you post?
A buff for EM?
Did I log into the Praetorian dimension or something?
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Let me get this straight.
You're saying that the simple truth that you can do more damage with barrage over time than three other level one tanker powers is irrelevant?
That I'm 'ignorant' for pointing out these little things like 'facts' and 'numbers' that disagree with your point of view?
You will make an excellent politician some day. If you can't handle anyone disagreeing with you, much less proving you wrong, why do you post?
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I don't mind disagreement, but you haven't proved anything. Your post acts like Barrage is in some sort of vacuum where it is the only attack you have. If that were the case, it might not be the worst. However, when you are at higher levels and have several attack powers, Barrage is part of an attack chain. As part of such an attack chain, it's end cost and recharge time are far less important than they would be in a vacuum where you had only one power. But the BI and activation time remain just as relevent, because the damage it does determines its usefulness, and the activation time affects all the other powers in the chain.
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Energy Transfer, Total Focus, and Bonesmasher are three of the best Tanker attacks in the entire game. If you're going for single target burst dmg you'd be hard pressed to do better. The price Energy Melee pays for this is that it's lacking a bit a bit in AoE attacks (1 less than most sets) and it's first power is very low dmg.
And your comment about Seismic Smash being better than anything but ET is incorrect. Seismic Smash was recently buffed so that it would be brought up to the same level as Total Focus, before that it was worse. It still is if you consider that Total Focus is half energy dmg while Seismic Smash is purely smashing dmg. And then Energy melee still has ET on top of that. The energy melee set has *two single target attacks that are arguably better than anything in all of Stone melee, and most other sets as well.
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They're nice attacks, but they are all on long recharges, so "burst" is very much a key word. And I'm talking about Seismic smash of now, not before. Compare the recharge time for Smash and Total Focus.
Comparing sets is very apples to oranges, though. If a dev were to say, "Hey, we made Barrage bad because ET is good", we could go there, but it's a lot more complex. As it is, my build is strapped for powers, because my fire tank is fire/EM, and as such, end up having to take several extra powers to not completely blow as a tank. As such, I really miss having an initial attack that's usable, but even fully slotted out, I'd take Boxing over Barrage in an instant, never mind Air Superiority.
How many EM cheerleaders have actually played EM tanks, especially post-ED? Yes, it's not a bad set. I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying the first attack is useless at higher levels whereas I think that many other tanks sets have initial attacks that at least maintain enough utility long term to be worthy of comparing them to pool powers, which Barrage does not.
If we were to touch on EM's weak points: Barrage stinks. Stun is fairly redundant, since we have disorients out the wazoo already. And Whirling Hands is one of the worst tank AOE attacks. Is EM still great at single target BURST damage? Yes, it may well still be best. But other sets have other advantages, from better damage mitigation to ranged attacks to superior AOE. I'm almost certain EM does not have the best SUSTAINED single target damage, either, because its lower end attacks are generally feeble (other than bonesmasher, which is admittedly a great attack all around, maybe one of the best melee attacks in the game).
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A buff for EM?
Did I log into the Praetorian dimension or something?
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LOL, my thoughts exactly. You KNOW that 100s of EM board reading tanks are just sitting there SHOUTING at their monitor for this topic to dry up and go away without getting nerf bat aggro.
And in other news Stalkers are complaining that AS doesn't do enough damage.
In your initial post you're comparing Barrage on it's own against the other 1st tier powers, and you even mentions its DPS. Then someone comes along and proves you wrong about its DPS (which is a measurement of the power as if used alone, the devs even use this metric when balancing) and you suddenly say "oh that's irrelevant, it's bad as part of a chain." So I wonder what you will say next when someone comes along and proves you wrong by showing that EM attack chains that include Barrage are as good or better than the other Tanker sets.
I'm going to have to agree with most of the others on this thread plasma. I don't see the numbers as supporting your case.
Now being forced to take ANY Of the first tier attacks is something legitimate that we can complain about. As very few of them have any use outside of a brute attack chain.
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Let me get this straight.
You're saying that the simple truth that you can do more damage with barrage over time than three other level one tanker powers is irrelevant?
That I'm 'ignorant' for pointing out these little things like 'facts' and 'numbers' that disagree with your point of view?
You will make an excellent politician some day. If you can't handle anyone disagreeing with you, much less proving you wrong, why do you post?
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I don't mind disagreement, but you haven't proved anything. Your post acts like Barrage is in some sort of vacuum where it is the only attack you have. If that were the case, it might not be the worst. However, when you are at higher levels and have several attack powers, Barrage is part of an attack chain. As part of such an attack chain, it's end cost and recharge time are far less important than they would be in a vacuum where you had only one power. But the BI and activation time remain just as relevent, because the damage it does determines its usefulness, and the activation time affects all the other powers in the chain.
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You are the one ignoring what does not support your point of view. But then again, i doubt you WANT to listen.
I do hope the devs look at the set however and nerf the hell out of ET and TF only so the entire comunity can thank you for the small boost to Barrage (and the endless chain of Energy Melee nerfs that will acompany such change).
as a back up to Firebomb's great post which needs no backup, I just want to note that numerically, Barrage is right in line with the devs balancing metrics.
i also liked it when the OP replied about how the higher tier EM attacks all have long recharges in a thread where he bemoans the existance of a low cost fast recharge filler attack.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
And this is why I love the tanker forum. Seriously, if one of us gets flamed, we all step in to flame back. It's great! I mean, plasma's response to firebomb really is just irrelevant considering his initial post, and I agree with Firebomb all the way. When you take into account that barrage does S/En damage versus just S/L, barrage is a great power. This is either on its own or as part of a chain. But really, if you say the power sucks, and you are shown evidence that it's better than most, just suck it up and realize you lost.
But man, love the way we all stick up for each other.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Okay, well, I'm obviously not finding much support for this idea. Hey, I yield! 
I wish we could post polls though, I'd love to see a statistic about how many of each tank secondary have slotted up their first attack, which is probably the best indicator of its usefulness.
Happy tanking, everyone.
i thought barrage was made to stack stuns faster???
I'll start this one off. I have frozen fists 6-slotted. Of course, I only have four real attacks, so I need all the damage I can get from what I have.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
There's just no excuse for this power to be so lame.
Act: 2
BI: 1.3888 sm/.5 en (1.8888 total)
Horrible.
Let's look at comparable powers, either pool powers available without prerequisites or first powers for other tanker primaries:
Gash is better
Scorch is better
Frozen Fists is better
Stone Fist is better
Jab is better (Although jab is as weak, but has a much faster activation)
Bash is better
Air Superiority is better
Boxing and Kick: both better
Flurry, believe it or not, is better from a dps standpoint (act 3/bi 3.18)
In short: Barrage is the worst attack in the entire game. Fix it, please.