Power Data Standardization/Brawl Index Replacement

Edgewater · 06-15-2006 12:12 AM

Nice guide

TCMac · 06-18-2006 08:20 AM

My Brain Hurts!!

Nemo_Utopia · 06-19-2006 05:31 AM

Have to say, I like this "new" format. I've already used it in my first full guide [/shameless plug], and find that level of comparison to be much friendlier. After some practice using your charts, I've printed them off (yeah, I know, I'm funny like that) for faster reference (along with some of the other stuff in here). Thanks for the time and effort it took to put all of this together, it's the kind of thing I always "mean to do" and then slack off on Count me converted!

VoodooCompany · 06-19-2006 06:20 AM

Regarding the guide's damage numbers:

I'm hesitant about going with this PDS and dropping BI numbers....but I'm trying! Really!

So the numbers in the guide, I divide those by ...what? .36 is it? And by doing this, they *should* match up to the "known" BI numbers in the planners that I know are good?

I was trying this just last night and I was getting numbers WAY off of what I'm sure are good numbers from the planners So now I feel dumb.

So if anyone give me an example with the Guide numbers for Plant Control damage numbers (Entangle, strangler, etc for example) and showing the conversion to BI (and back again) I'll be a happy camper. I think I was missing an AT modifier, but not sure if those are inherent in the guide or not?

I've already forgotten about most of you

Nemo_Utopia · 06-19-2006 06:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding the guide's damage numbers:

I'm hesitant about going with this PDS and dropping BI numbers....but I'm trying! Really!

So the numbers in the guide, I divide those by ...what? .36 is it? And by doing this, they *should* match up to the "known" BI numbers in the planners that I know are good?

I was trying this just last night and I was getting numbers WAY off of what I'm sure are good numbers from the planners So now I feel dumb.

So if anyone give me an example with the Guide numbers for Plant Control damage numbers (Entangle, strangler, etc for example) and showing the conversion to BI (and back again) I'll be a happy camper. I think I was missing an AT modifier, but not sure if those are inherent in the guide or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't give you Plant numbers, but I'll go with ElM (my relative field of expertise). Actually, no, I'll just use theoretical stuff. Let's say you have an attack with a DS value of 1. You'd be familiar with the Brawl Index being 2.7778 (1/.36). Based on your value of 1, you would then find based on your level and AT the modifiers. Let's say level 10 Dom. THen I'll show you with a level 30 Dom. The ranged table shows you in the level 10 row, Dominator column that your modifier is -14.55. Since your DS value is 1, that would be 14.55 damage to teh target. As a BI comparison: 2.7778 Brawl damage * 5.238 Brawl Damage = 14.55 damage to target. At level 30, you'd find the modifier to be -26.23. This means that your BI 1 attack does 26.23 damage, and in BI would be Brawl of 9.4428 * 2.7778 = 26.23 damage to target. If the modifier was 1.5 (a BI of 4.1667 = 1.5DS/.36) you would get 21.825 and 39.345, respectively, and a DS of .9 (BI of 2.5=.9DS/.36) would get 13.095 and 23.607 damage to the target. If you wanted to take any of these values and modify based on foe's level, use the modifier for how much higher/lower than you they are (+0s are a 1.00 modifier = base damage value). Remember, if you're still in "BI mode" then it's

1) Take BI*.36=DS
2) Take DS value * multiplier (ranged or melee) based on level = damage value
3) Take damage value and multiply by foe level modifier = final damage

Hope that helps!

VoodooCompany · 06-19-2006 07:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1) Take BI*.36=DS
2) Take DS value * multiplier (ranged or melee) based on level = damage value
3) Take damage value and multiply by foe level modifier = final damage

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely was missing the mods. I'd like to skip foe level modifiers if I can, and level modifiers. Is this possible? Just want a basic "feel" for what the power does, inherently knowing it'll get stronger over levels and damage to mobs will be affected by their level/type and whatever resistances they have to it.

My main question is, what are the numbers in the guide? Are the AT modifiers, Range/melee modifiers, and level modifiers already included in the given damage numbers? I'm not finding a way to get the guide numbers to match up with converted BI numbers for powers that I'm fairly confident are correct (in BI value).

Example from guide:
Strangler (plant control)
7.95 smashing damage every 1 second for 5 seconds

The BIs I've seen for this power are ~3.01 (including the 5 ticks).

So either the guide number is wrong, the BI numbers are wrong, and/or I'm doing something wrong because I can't get them to match up after conversions.

I've already forgotten about most of you

iakona_NA · 06-19-2006 07:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Take BI*.36=DS
2) Take DS value * multiplier (ranged or melee) based on level = damage value
3) Take damage value and multiply by foe level modifier = final damage

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely was missing the mods. I'd like to skip foe level modifiers if I can, and level modifiers. Is this possible? Just want a basic "feel" for what the power does, inherently knowing it'll get stronger over levels and damage to mobs will be affected by their level/type and whatever resistances they have to it.

My main question is, what are the numbers in the guide? Are the AT modifiers, Range/melee modifiers, and level modifiers already included in the given damage numbers? I'm not finding a way to get the guide numbers to match up with converted BI numbers for powers that I'm fairly confident are correct (in BI value).

Example from guide:
Strangler (plant control)
7.95 smashing damage every 1 second for 5 seconds

The BIs I've seen for this power are ~3.01 (including the 5 ticks).

So either the guide number is wrong, the BI numbers are wrong, and/or I'm doing something wrong because I can't get them to match up after conversions.

[/ QUOTE ]
7.95 * 5 = 39.75 total damage
39.75 / 36.1466 = 1.1 DS
1.1 / .36 = 3.055556 BI

VoodooCompany · 06-19-2006 07:33 AM

So what am I missing with that 36.1466 number? What's that/where did it come from?

So just to clarify, the damage numbers in the guide include AT range/melee modifiers?

And no, I'm not usually this clueless with math Just seem to be missing the "duh" step

I've already forgotten about most of you

iakona_NA · 06-19-2006 07:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So what am I missing with that 36.1466 number? What's that/where did it come from?

So just to clarify, the damage numbers in the guide include AT range/melee modifiers?

And no, I'm not usually this clueless with math Just seem to be missing the "duh" step

[/ QUOTE ]
If you look in the first post in this thread, find the Ranged Damage Modifiers table, look in the Dominators column, row 50, and you'll see 36.15. This is the actual damage for a 1.0 DS (2.7778 BI) ranged attack for a level 50 Dominator.

VoodooCompany · 06-19-2006 07:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is the actual damage for a 1.0 DS (2.7778 BI) ranged attack for a level 50 Dominator.

[/ QUOTE ]

That be the "duh" step I was missing; wasn't converting anything down.

Thanks.

I've already forgotten about most of you

Gearloose · 06-23-2006 08:43 AM

The scalar is definitely a better method than the BI system, but we have too many charts
for it to appeal to the masses. What we need is a way to simplify and compact the tables.

We know that there is a base for each chart. Take melee damage for example. We know that
Blasters are considered the base and has an AT Mod of 1. And we know that all other archetypes'
melee damage can be expressed as a percent of Blaster (or base) damage. Why not throw out the
other 11 columns and only keep the base.

Modifier = Base - [Base * (1 - AT Mod) * Lvl Mod]

With this equation, the AT Mod, and the Lvl Modifier (since levels 1-19 are skewed) we can
completely recreate the Melee Damage table, with an error of plus or minus 0.01. Now if we
were to start going through the ranged damage table, you will notice that ranged damage
base = melee damage base. So we can get rid of 1 table.

Something interesting happens when we look at the mez affects (stun, immobilize, sleep, fear).
These tables are not skewed at levels 1 -19. So to reuse the same equation, for the mez affects
the Lvl Mod is always equal to 1. This simplifies the equation:

Mez Modifier = Base - [Base * (1 - AT Mod) * Lvl Mod]
= Base - [Base * (1 - AT Mod) * 1]
= Base - [Base * (1 - AT Mod)]
= Base - [Base + (Base * AT Mod)]
= Base - Base + (Base * AT Mod)
= Base * AT Mod

Now, if you look at the base for M Stun, R Stun, M Immob, R Immob, M Sleep, R Sleep, M Fear, and
R Fear, you will see that they are all the same. That is 8 tables we can combine into 1. Now we
can collect all of the base values into 1 table, and our AT modifiers into a second table. This
greatly reduces the number of tables we have to reference.

Table 1: Base Modifiers
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>

level Lvl Mod HP M/R Dmg M/R KB Mez
1 0.20 100.00 -10.00 1.0000 1.00
2 0.21 110.50 -10.73 1.0317 1.01
3 0.23 121.80 -11.50 1.0611 1.02
4 0.25 133.93 -12.29 1.0885 1.03
5 0.27 146.91 -13.11 1.1140 1.04
6 0.30 160.77 -13.96 1.1378 1.05
7 0.35 175.52 -14.84 1.1601 1.06
8 0.40 191.19 -15.75 1.1810 1.07
9 0.45 207.78 -16.68 1.2006 1.08
10 0.50 225.30 -17.63 1.2193 1.09
11 0.55 243.76 -18.61 1.2370 1.10
12 0.60 263.15 -19.62 1.2539 1.11
13 0.65 283.46 -20.64 1.2702 1.12
14 0.70 304.67 -21.69 1.2859 1.13
15 0.75 326.77 -22.76 1.3013 1.14
16 0.80 349.73 -23.85 1.3163 1.15
17 0.85 373.51 -24.96 1.3313 1.16
18 0.90 398.08 -26.09 1.3461 1.17
19 0.95 423.37 -27.23 1.3610 1.18
20 1.00 449.34 -28.39 1.3759 1.19
21 1.00 475.93 -29.56 1.3911 1.20
22 1.00 503.06 -30.74 1.4066 1.21
23 1.00 530.65 -31.93 1.4225 1.22
24 1.00 558.63 -33.13 1.4388 1.23
25 1.00 586.90 -34.33 1.4555 1.24
26 1.00 615.36 -35.54 1.4728 1.25
27 1.00 643.92 -36.75 1.4908 1.26
28 1.00 672.47 -37.96 1.5093 1.27
29 1.00 700.89 -39.16 1.5286 1.28
30 1.00 729.08 -40.35 1.5485 1.29
31 1.00 756.91 -41.53 1.5693 1.30
32 1.00 784.27 -42.70 1.5907 1.31
33 1.00 811.03 -43.84 1.6130 1.32
34 1.00 837.07 -44.96 1.6360 1.33
35 1.00 862.27 -46.05 1.6599 1.34
36 1.00 886.52 -47.11 1.6845 1.35
37 1.00 909.69 -48.13 1.7099 1.36
38 1.00 931.66 -49.10 1.7361 1.37
39 1.00 952.34 -50.03 1.7630 1.38
40 1.00 971.60 -50.90 1.7907 1.39
41 1.00 989.36 -51.72 1.8190 1.40
42 1.00 1005.52 -52.46 1.8480 1.41
43 1.00 1020.00 -53.14 1.8776 1.42
44 1.00 1032.71 -53.74 1.9078 1.43
45 1.00 1043.59 -54.26 1.9385 1.44
46 1.00 1052.59 -54.70 1.9696 1.45
47 1.00 1059.64 -55.05 2.0011 1.46
48 1.00 1064.73 -55.30 2.0329 1.47
49 1.00 1067.81 -55.46 2.0649 1.48
50 1.00 1070.90 -55.61 2.0771 1.49
</pre><hr />

Table 2: Archetype Modifiers
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Blaster Cntlr Dfndr Scrppr Tanker Pcbrgr Wrshd Brute Crrptr Dom MM Stalker
Dmg Cap 5.000 4.000 4.000 5.000 4.000 4.000 4.000 8.500 4.000 4.000 4.000 5.000
Def Cap
Res Cap 0.750 0.750 0.750 0.750 0.900 0.850 0.850 0.900 0.750 0.750 0.750 0.750
HP 1.125 0.950 0.950 1.250 1.750 1.000 1.000 1.400 0.950 0.750 0.950 1.000
M Dmg 1.000 0.550 0.550 1.125 0.800 0.750 0.750 0.750 0.900 0.550 0.700 0.750
R Dmg 1.000 0.550 0.650 0.500 0.500 0.625 0.625 0.500 0.600 0.550 0.650 0.750
M Stun 0.800 1.250 1.000 0.800 0.800 0.900 0.900 0.800 0.800 1.000 1.000 0.800
R Stun 0.800 1.250 1.000 0.800 0.800 0.900 0.900 0.800 0.750 1.000 1.000 0.800
M Immob 0.800 1.250 1.000 0.800 0.800 0.900 0.900 0.800 0.800 1.000 1.000 0.800
R Immob 0.800 1.250 1.000 0.800 0.800 0.900 0.900 0.800 0.800 1.000 0.800 0.800
M Sleep 0.800 1.250 1.000 0.800 0.800 0.900 0.900 0.800 0.800 1.000 1.000 0.800
R Sleep 0.800 1.250 1.000 0.800 0.800 0.900 0.900 0.800 0.800 1.000 0.800 0.800
M Kb 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.250 1.000 1.000 1.250 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000
R Kb 0.800 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.250 0.900 0.900 1.250 0.800 1.000 0.800 1.000
M Fear 0.800 1.250 1.000 1.000 1.000 0.900 0.900 1.000 0.800 1.000 1.000 1.000
R Fear 0.800 1.250 1.000 1.000 1.000 0.900 0.900 1.000 0.800 1.000 0.800 1.000
M Buff Def 0.070 0.090 0.100 0.075 0.100 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.090 0.085 0.085
R Buff Def 0.065 0.075 0.100 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.075
M Buff Dmg 0.125 0.080 0.100 0.125 0.100 0.090 0.090 0.100 0.100 0.080 0.085 0.085
R Buff Dmg 0.070 0.100 0.125 0.070 0.070 0.090 0.090 0.070 0.070 0.075 0.075 0.100
M Buff ToHit 0.075 0.080 0.100 0.100 0.100 0.090 0.090 0.100 0.100 0.080 0.085 0.085
R Buff ToHit 0.070 0.100 0.125 0.070 0.070 0.090 0.090 0.070 0.070 0.075 0.075 0.100
M DeBuff ToHit -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.075 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100 -0.100 -0.075
R DeBuff ToHit -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.070 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.070 -0.070 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100
M Debuff Dmg -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.075 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100 -0.100 -0.075
R Debuff Dmg -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.070 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.070 -0.070 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100
M Debuff Def -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.075 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100 -0.100 -0.075
R Debuff Def -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.070 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.070 -0.070 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100
M Res Dmg 0.070 0.100 0.100 0.075 0.100 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.100 0.085 0.075
R Res Dmg 0.065 0.075 0.100 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.075
M End Drain 1.000 1.100 1.250 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.100 1.100 1.000
R End Drain 1.000 1.100 1.250 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.000 1.100
M Slow -1.000 -1.250 -1.000 -0.800 -0.800 -1.000 -1.000 -0.800 -0.800 -1.000 -1.000 -1.000
R Slow -1.000 -1.250 -1.000 -0.800 -0.800 -1.000 -1.000 -0.800 -0.800 -1.000 -1.000 -1.000 </pre><hr />

Gearloose · 06-23-2006 09:09 AM

As a side note, I am surprised that Scalars didn't catch on sooner. The existence of scalars has been public knowledge
for quite some time. This quote is taken from an earlier City of Heroes Prima Guide. On the cover it reads Expanded Content
Now covers Issue #1, and inside on the credits Many parts written by Jack Emmert. This is taken from a
section on comparing power sets shared by 2 Archetypes.

"...each power has a base scale for each effect it has, and those scales are multiplied by a factor
determined by a character's Archetype and level.

For example Brawl has a base scale of .36. When you Brawl, that base scale is multiplied by your character's
level-specific, Archetype-specific factor for Melee Smashing to determine the actual damage your attack does.
Since the level-specific, Archetype-specific factor for Melee Smashing is going to be higher for a Scrapper
than a Controller, Scrappers will do more Brawl damage than Controllers of the same level. The reason the
Scrapper's Melee Smashing is higher is because of an Archetype multiplier. That's how the differences are defined
between the Archetypes for given effect types. Scrappers have a multiplier that's greater than 1, so they do
more melee damage, while Controllers have a multiplier that's less than one, so they're not as effective in melee.

Because the Resist Damage multiplier is higher for Tankers (x1.0) than it is for Scrappers (x0.75), powers
that use this factor, such as the Invulnerability power set, will always be 25% more effective in the hands
of a Tanker than a Scrapper. Similarly, because the Ranged Healing multiplier is higher for Defenders (x1.25)
than it is for Controllers (x1.1), a Defender will always be 15% more effective with the Empathy ranged healing
powers than a Controller with the same powers and at the same level.

Given that these factors are associated with the Archetype, not the power set, it follows that pool powers are
similarly modified. Leadership: Maneuvers and Fighting: Toughness will favor Defenders and Tankers (respectively),
because they're modified by factors in which those Archetypes excel. Scrappers will always be more effective
with powers like Fighting: Boxing than anyone else. In short, the name of the power set and the powers within
it may be the same, but different Archetypes are differently effective in using them."

iakona_NA · 06-23-2006 09:36 AM

I've been meaning to do a revision/cleanup for i7 to compact all the info from this thread into a smaller, more organized, easier to read guide, but RL issues have delayed this a bit. I'm still planning to post up a fancy new i7 version Soon(TM). If anyone has ideas/suggestions of what they'd like to see in the new guide, or what format it should be in, feel free to post them here.

Old_School · 06-23-2006 10:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Very nice work

[/ QUOTE ]

Werd...all those numbers

Starfox_NA · 07-13-2006 03:40 AM

The devs upped the melee damage modifier for Dominators. Was this before or after the values in the first post on this thread?

Stupid_Fanboy · 07-13-2006 08:48 AM

after

Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.

▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲

FrostByghte · 07-13-2006 11:47 AM

I'm looking for someone that might be interested in completely revamping our powerlist on Coldfront http://coh.coldfront.net/ And specifically adding the PDS info. If there are any takers please contact me, our backend system is a simple mysql database there really isn't much to it.

Starfox_NA · 07-14-2006 12:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The devs upped the melee damage modifier for Dominators. Was this before or after the values in the first post on this thread?

[/ QUOTE ]after

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it now? Preferably in % of Blaster damage.

iakona_NA · 07-14-2006 01:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The devs upped the melee damage modifier for Dominators. Was this before or after the values in the first post on this thread?

[/ QUOTE ]after

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it now? Preferably in % of Blaster damage.

[/ QUOTE ]
It was 70% of blaster damage; now it's 75%.

iakona_NA · 07-14-2006 01:27 PM

The revised Power Data Standardization v2.0 (Issue 7) is now posted. Please update your links/bookmarks.