Power Data Standardization/Brawl Index Replacement
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2006-02-09 09:42 in Player Guides
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could you explain why you added these modifiers rather than simply listing the brawl damage for each at at each level.
also, could you explain why you differentiate between range and melee charts because i see it as adding an unnecessary level of complexity.
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The new modifiers are probably closer to how things are actually coded. The Brawl Indexes tend to be things like 2.778, which is really 2.7777... These are clearly not nice simple numbers that people would pick. Well, with these Power Data Standardization (PDS) modifiers, that same number would be 1.0. I believe the Devs refer to it as Damage Scale. If you want, you can just multiply every Brawl Index value by 0.36 to get its PDS value. You'll get a lot cleaner numbers. In fact if a number isn't clean, it's probably wrong!
Range and Melee have different charts because on some ATs they are different. Compare a Scrapper's level 1-10 temp power (ranged) and Brawl. Going from level 1 to 10, Brawl will increase about 83%, while the temp power will increase only 47%. On the other hand, a Controller will see both increase 50%.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
TopDoc, temp powers work off a seperate and entirely different damage scale, shared by all ATs. You can test this by having two of any AT go into Sirens and use the EMP Glove temp power.
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The new modifiers are probably closer to how things are actually coded. The Brawl Indexes tend to be things like 2.778, which is really 2.7777... These are clearly not nice simple numbers that people would pick. Well, with these Power Data Standardization (PDS) modifiers, that same number would be 1.0. I believe the Devs refer to it as Damage Scale. If you want, you can just multiply every Brawl Index value by 0.36 to get its PDS value. You'll get a lot cleaner numbers. In fact if a number isn't clean, it's probably wrong!
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this I don't have a problem with. i already do this on my own charts. well, i multiply by 36 instead of .36, but the effect is the same. my numbers are nice and round, i just don't have decimal points.
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Range and Melee have different charts because on some ATs they are different. Compare a Scrapper's level 1-10 temp power (ranged) and Brawl. Going from level 1 to 10, Brawl will increase about 83%, while the temp power will increase only 47%. On the other hand, a Controller will see both increase 50%.
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hmm. this i was not aware of. though on my claws scrapper, with two ranged attacks, they have adhered to the melee brawl index that we have been using. i'll check this when I get home.
(did you get that compressed file? 
)
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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could you explain why you added these modifiers rather than simply listing the brawl damage for each at at each level.
also, could you explain why you differentiate between range and melee charts because i see it as adding an unnecessary level of complexity.
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*cough* 
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My goal here is to give everyone the information about how the various mathematical systems of the game work. The Brawl Index system is fundamentally flawed, since it was based only on observations of the in-game numbers. This system I'm presenting is based on numerous dev posts, combined with that observational data, to provide the true numbers for the game systems (since Statesman still stubbornly refuses to release all this information to us, I've decided to find out for myself).
Now, certainly, this information is not intended for everyone to read over and understand. If you hate numbers and math, this thread probably isn't for you. This thread is directed toward those people who like to know the math behind the game, so that they can make more informed choices about their characters. I'm also hoping that the people working on all the various hero/villain planners out there will take note of this guide, and provide those programs with more accurate, complete, and easy to understand data than what they currently have.
I am only presenting the data that I believe to be accurate, and everything is the same level of complexity as the underlying systems of CoH/CoV. If something presented here seems unnecessarily complex, it's because the developers made it that way, because it made sense to them as they put the game together. They don't worry about how easy it is for outside observers to understand, because they (us, the players) don't need to see these systems to be able to play and succeed in the game. Some of us are simply driven to find out how things work, and want to know all the little details of the systems we play in. This thread is primarily directed toward those people.
Hope that clears things up a bit
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hmm. this i was not aware of. though on my claws scrapper, with two ranged attacks, they have adhered to the melee brawl index that we have been using. i'll check this when I get home.
(did you get that compressed file? )
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What you think is melee and ranged isn't necessarily what the game thinks is melee and ranged. Some funny stuff came out of the Defense work Arcanaville and others have done. I believe melee range cones and player PBAoEs are considered melee attacks, at least for Defense purposes. Focus is longer range than any melee cone, but it may still be considered a melee attack for Defense and Damage purposes.
(yes I got the file but I haven't run it through my script)
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
what do you suggest we do with the brawl index database now?
also, why not simply leave your melee and range brawl index as actual numbers instead of carrying the -.36 multiplier?
by applying the .36(i like making it 36) multiplier to the actually BI numbers on attacks, they become these very round easy numbers.
why not do that?
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
I suggest converting the brawl index database to the Damage Scale database. Multiply all the BIs by .36 to get the DS value, and then you just find your corresponding damage mod in the tables above and multiply it by the DS to get your real, in-game damage.
Also, any new DS values that do not come out as fairly round numbers (the most I've seen in my testing is 2 digits after the decimal), then those numbers should be retested and verified. For example, if you found a DS of 2.846, it's probably inaccurate; but a DS of 1.64 (with no additional decimals) is probably accurate.
As for why I don't multiply by 36 instead of .36, it's because if you multiply by 36, you then have to divide the damage mod tables by 100, giving you some messy decimals to work with. I prefer x.xx * xx.xx , rather than xxx * 0.xxxx
so then we also have to determine all "ranged" attacks on your scale and then set up a separate chart for them too right?
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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I suggest converting the brawl index database to the Damage Scale database. Multiply all the BIs by .36 to get the DS value, and then you just find your corresponding damage mod in the tables above and multiply it by the DS to get your real, in-game damage.
.
Also, any new DS values that do not come out as fairly round numbers (the most I've seen in my testing is 2 digits after the decimal), then those numbers should be retested and verified. For example, if you found a DS of 2.846, it's probably inaccurate; but a DS of 1.64 (with no additional decimals) is probably accurate.
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cool, that's actually what i've done with all my own charts anyway. i hope you get this to work. i hate those friggin repeating decimals.
It's just a bit weird to not be able to look at the actual brawl value for that AT at that level.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Every power in the game is inherently ranged or melee, that's how ALL the calculations are done by the game system. Even self-buffs and auto powers are considered melee, with the target set as yourself. Every (or nearly every) modifier in the game has a ranged version and a melee version. Sometimes these are the same, sometimes they're not. For the majority of powers, it should be fairly obvious whether they're ranged or melee, though there are some oddities (like Focus being a melee attack). Final damage is calculated by knowing 1) the damage scale, 2) which mod table to use, and 3) the values in that mod table.
For Blasters, Controllers, Masterminds, and Corruptors, you don't need to differentiate between ranged and melee, as they have the same damage modifier. For Brutes, Stalkers, Scrappers, and Tankers, nearly all of their powers are melee (EPPs may be an exception). That just leaves Defenders (nearly all ranged), Dominators, and Kheldians for us to figure out ranged vs. melee, which shouldn't be that difficult.
scrapper EPPs then are also melee it seems as they follow the current brawl tables perfectly.
i think all scrapper, brute, tank, and stalker attacks are inherently melee. this was done to get around range debuffs to melee attacks making them unable to attack.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
I'd like to point out that there is also a separate brawl table for temporary powers. You can find it in brawl index form here. While I'm mentioning it, that site is a wiki, so it's great for community keeping-information- together purposes.
I'll also inject my opinion that it's a bit pointless for there to be separate ranged and melee brawl tables when they aren't used. All scrapper attacks are melee, even if they have range. All tanker, stalker, and brute attacks too. It doesn't matter for corruptors, blasters and a few others. Pretty much the only time you actually see this affecting ANYTHING is with defenders.
Gandhi 2 - Inf - lvl 50 AR/Dev Bla, Gazebo - Virt - lvl 50 Ice/SS Tank, Ms. Summers - Champ - lvl 50 MA/Inv Scr, Rachel Rosen - Lib - lvl 50 Ice/Emp Ctrl
Kiaransalee - Virt - lvl 50 Nec/Pois Mmd, Tierna - Vic - lvl 50 SS/Stone Bru
(and many <50s)
The brawl index breaks down and gets some messy numbers when you try to apply it to defenders, dominators, and kheldians. I listed the separate tables for all ATs for the sake of inclusiveness, as there's no way I could have gone through and verified that every X AT power is melee/ranged. I leave that up to the testing community in general to verify whether or not any of the mods are completely unused.
is that what you did with stuff like the healing and HP max chart too?
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Here's some more numbers for your math-crunching pleasure. These are the modifier values for melee and ranged buffs and debuffs, by AT. A good example of how you can see these in action is with the Aim power, which is shared by Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors: The damage buff scale for Aim is 5.0, and the to-hit buff scale is 8.0, so using the table below, we get the following values:
Blaster Aim damage buff = 5.0 * 0.125 = 0.625, or 62.5%
Defender Aim damage buff = 5.0 * 0.10 = 0.50 or 50%
Corruptor Aim damage buff = 5.0 * 0.085 = 0.425 or 42.5%
Blaster Aim to-hit buff = 8.0 * 0.075 = 0.60 or 60%
Defender Aim to-hit buff = 8.0 * 0.10 = 0.80 or 80%
Corruptor Aim to-hit buff = 8.0 * 0.085 = 0.68 or 68%
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> AT BUFF/DEBUFF MODS (M = Melee, R = Ranged)
Modifier Blaster Control Defende Scrappe Tanker Peacebr Warshad Brute Stalker Masterm Dominat Corrupt
M Buff Def 0.070 0.090 0.100 0.075 0.100 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.090 0.085 0.085
R Buff Def 0.065 0.075 0.100 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.075
M Buff Dam 0.125 0.080 0.100 0.125 0.100 0.090 0.090 0.100 0.100 0.080 0.085 0.085
R Buff Dam 0.070 0.100 0.125 0.070 0.070 0.090 0.090 0.070 0.070 0.075 0.075 0.100
M Buff ToHit 0.075 0.080 0.100 0.100 0.100 0.090 0.090 0.100 0.100 0.080 0.085 0.085
R Buff ToHit 0.070 0.100 0.125 0.070 0.070 0.090 0.090 0.070 0.070 0.075 0.075 0.100
M DeBuff ToHit -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.075 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100 -0.100 -0.075
R DeBuff ToHit -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.070 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.070 -0.070 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100
M Debuff Dam -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.075 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100 -0.100 -0.075
R Debuff Dam -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.070 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.070 -0.070 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100
R Debuff Dmg -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.070 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.070 -0.070 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100
M Debuff Def -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.075 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100 -0.100 -0.075
R Debuff Def -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.070 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.070 -0.070 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100
M Res Dmg 0.070 0.100 0.100 0.075 0.100 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.100 0.085 0.075
R Res Dmg 0.065 0.075 0.100 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.075
</pre><hr />
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is that what you did with stuff like the healing and HP max chart too?
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The HP max charts are separated by damage type rather than melee/ranged, and they're all identical within each AT, so I only listed that once each for the max HP and the max HP cap. The healing tables are separated into melee and ranged, but I listed only the ranged table here, as there was minimal variation between the two. If it appears that the ranged chart is giving the wrong numbers for any of the ATs, I'll put up the melee one too, but I don't think that will be necessary.
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hmm. this i was not aware of. though on my claws scrapper, with two ranged attacks, they have adhered to the melee brawl index that we have been using. i'll check this when I get home.
(did you get that compressed file? )
[/ QUOTE ]
What you think is melee and ranged isn't necessarily what the game thinks is melee and ranged. Some funny stuff came out of the Defense work Arcanaville and others have done. I believe melee range cones and player PBAoEs are considered melee attacks, at least for Defense purposes. Focus is longer range than any melee cone, but it may still be considered a melee attack for Defense and Damage purposes.
(yes I got the file but I haven't run it through my script)
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I believe whether an attack is set to the melee scale or the ranged scale is independent of whether its a melee, ranged, or AoE attack for the purposes of defense. While it doesn't happen often, I don't think the two can be said to be in any way linked except by coincidence.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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iakona, I think we'll need the melee heal values, as well.
For example, a level 50 scrapper heals himself for 262 health with Aid Self, and gives other 189 Health with Aid Other. That would give Aid Self a 2.71 scalar, and Aid Other a 1.9ish scalar. However, a 24 Defender healed himself for 104 Health with Aid Self, and 136 with Aid Other. Those would suggest a 1.48 scalar for Aid Self, and a 1.9ish scalar for Aid Other.
While Aid Other remains constant, the Defender gets close to half the results from Aid Other.
The Scrapper and Defender Melee Heal mods are the same as their Ranged Heal mods; however, there's a separate set of ranged and melee mod tables for the HealSelf values. I need a few minutes to copy and format those values, then I'll post them up here.
Edit: Nevermind, those values are simply 10% of the base HP values for each AT. Just multiply my HP table by 0.1 and you'll have the HealSelf tables.
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Are you taking into account that nova form has a 50% inherent damage buff over it's base damage? (not 45% as TopDoc indicated)
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I retested this, and Bright Nova has a +45% Damage buff.
My level 50 PB using unslotted Bright Nova Bolt against a level 1 Hellion did 348.33 damage. After an Enrage Inspiration (+25%), it was 408.39. If the difference in damage (60.06) was 25% of the base damage, then the base damage is 240.24. And 348.33 is 1.45 times 240.24.
Also, using LOTS of Enrages to hit the damage cap, Bright Nova Bolt did 960.96 damage under similar circumstances. The damage cap for Khelds is still 400%, which means the base damage is a quarter of that, or 240.24. And 348.33 is still 1.45 times 240.24.
Why do you think it's 50%?
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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If someone can get me the baseline damage numbers for a level 20+ kheld, I'll double check the table. I need the unenhanced, unbuffed damage of each of the 4 nova form attacks, and the corresponding human form attacks. Attack an even level minion with no vulnerabilities, and record those 8 numbers.
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I'm beginning to think you're right. I always thought it was strange that Bright Nova Bolt was listed as Minor damage, even though it had a higher Brawl Index than Glinting Eye, a Moderate damage human form attack.
The following are all by my level 50 PB against a level 1 Hellion.
Gleaming Bolt: 125.11 en
Glinting Eye: 208.53 en
Gleaming Blast: 341.99 en
Radiant Strike: 250.24 sm + 240.23 en
Proton Scatter: 206.44 en
Luminous Detonation: 187.67 en
Incandescent Strike: 390.37 sm + 500.48 en
Solar Flare: 355.34 en
Bright Nova Bolt: 348.33 en
Bright Nova Blast: 580.56 en
Bright Nova Scatter: 574.76 en
Bright Nova Detonation: 348.33 en + 174.16 sm
White Dwarf Strike: 96.42 sm + 141.8 en
White Dwarf Smite: 90.75 sm + 283.6 en
White Dwarf Flare: 255.24 en
Divide the damage by 6 to take the level different into account, divide by 1.45 for Nova attacks, and then by the appropriate modifier gives some very clean numbers.
Gleaming Bolt: 0.60 en
Glinting Eye: 1.0 en
Gleaming Blast: 1.64 en
Radiant Strike: 1.0 sm + 0.96 en (melee)
Proton Scatter: 0.99 en
Luminous Detonation: 0.90 en
Incandescent Strike: 1.56 sm + 2.0 en (melee)
Solar Flare: 1.42 en (melee)
Bright Nova Bolt: 0.60 en
Bright Nova Blast: 1.0 en
Bright Nova Scatter: 0.99 en
Bright Nova Detonation: 0.60 en + 0.30 sm
White Dwarf Strike: 0.34 sm + 0.50 en
White Dwarf Smite: 0.32 sm + 1.0 en
White Dwarf Flare: 0.90 en
Next we need to decipher the various damage definitions in the power descriptions (Minor, Moderate, High, Heavy, Superior, Extreme), as I expect they will directly correspond to Damage Scale numbers. Of course we'll probably find a lot are off given that powers have changed a fair amount. For example, both Glinting Eye and Bright Nova Blast have a Damage Scale value of 1.0, yet one is Moderate while the other is High.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
Regarding the buff/debuff modifier:
How do you get the damage buff scale or the ToHit debuff scale numbers? Where did 5 come from?
Am I correct that if I knew the Tohit debuff scale for Darkest Night for example I could calculate the actual base debuff of that power?
This is all very interesting, and I believe probably very accurate, but this is then what I want to see.
Give a moderate damage blaster attack (BI=2.77778) the damage value of 1 (both melee and ranged), then tell me in a hero planner what damage every other attack in the game does compared to this base attack. Do the same for heals, buffs, and debuffs, compared to their appropriate respective baseline ATs, and I will finally have a hero planner with no confusion.
I guess I should clarify that I only mean for lvl 20+ characters, after the scalers have calmed down.
Good idea Pink!
Are you taking into account that nova form has a 50% inherent damage buff over it's base damage? (not 45% as TopDoc indicated)