Power Data Standardization/Brawl Index Replacement
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2006-02-09 09:42 in Player Guides
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Ok, bit of a dumb question. Are you looking for assistance in gathering the damage scale values of all of the powers, or is there a way that you're able to dig that up? I've already been trying to generate what numbers I can, so I can send them your way if it's needed.
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I need help gathering all scale values for all powers, as these can only be determined by testing and/or dev comments. These include damage scale, healing scale, buff scale, etc. You can post any results you find in this thread.
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It's because a corrupter's primary function is damage, whereas a dominator's primary function is control. It is just like the difference between blasters and defenders or scrappers and tankers.
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A corruptor's primary function is ranged damage. Obviously, it's not as if the Devs can't change one value without altering the other. A Dominator's purpose, even if it's his secondary purpose, is to deal damage and that some of that damage is meant to be melee.
It just seems odd to me that a class that puts such a focus on ranged damage, and absolutely no focus on melee damage, would be 'better' at it than a class that actually has melee attacks.
But this probably isn't the place to get into this.
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It just seems odd to me that a class that puts such a focus on ranged damage, and absolutely no focus on melee damage, would be 'better' at it than a class that actually has melee attacks.
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Corruptor damage listed in the character creator: High
Dominator damage listed in the character creator: Medium
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> AT BUFF/DEBUFF MODS (M = Melee, R = Ranged)
Modifier Blaster Control Defende Scrappe Tanker Peacebr Warshad Brute Stalker Masterm Dominat Corrupt
M Buff Def 0.070 0.090 0.100 0.075 0.100 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.090 0.085 0.085
R Buff Def 0.065 0.075 0.100 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.075
M Buff Dam 0.125 0.080 0.100 0.125 0.100 0.090 0.090 0.100 0.100 0.080 0.085 0.085
R Buff Dam 0.070 0.100 0.125 0.070 0.070 0.090 0.090 0.070 0.070 0.075 0.075 0.100
M Buff ToHit 0.075 0.080 0.100 0.100 0.100 0.090 0.090 0.100 0.100 0.080 0.085 0.085
R Buff ToHit 0.070 0.100 0.125 0.070 0.070 0.090 0.090 0.070 0.070 0.075 0.075 0.100
M DeBuff ToHit -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.075 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100 -0.100 -0.075
R DeBuff ToHit -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.070 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.070 -0.070 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100
M Debuff Dam -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.075 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100 -0.100 -0.075
R Debuff Dam -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.070 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.070 -0.070 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100
R Debuff Dmg -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.070 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.070 -0.070 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100
M Debuff Def -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.075 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100 -0.100 -0.075
R Debuff Def -0.070 -0.100 -0.125 -0.070 -0.070 -0.090 -0.090 -0.070 -0.070 -0.075 -0.075 -0.100
M Res Dmg 0.070 0.100 0.100 0.075 0.100 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.100 0.085 0.075
R Res Dmg 0.065 0.075 0.100 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.075
</pre><hr />
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Ok, I did some testing using the Sonic Debuffs, to figure out which part of the above it uses.
It does NOT use a Debuff set at all. It uses the R Res Dmg line.
Defender Shriek has a -20% Res, Corr Shriek has a -15% Res, and Blaster Shriek has a -13% Res.
If I try using the R Debuff Dmg/Dam. Defender Shriek's -Res would be a scalar of 1.6. If we then apply that 1.6 scalar to Blaster, it says blaster would debuff by 11.2% which isn't the case.
I then tried, for the hell of it, the R Res Dmg line. Defender Shriek under this table has a Scalar of 2. Using that 2 scalar to Blaster it comes out to 13%, which is on the dot. Same with Corruptor.
I hope this helps ya'll out some. 
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A corruptor's primary function is ranged damage. Obviously, it's not as if the Devs can't change one value without altering the other. A Dominator's purpose, even if it's his secondary purpose, is to deal damage and that some of that damage is meant to be melee.
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No, a corruptor's primary function is damage not ranged damage...even if he has no melee attacks in his primary power set. Corruptors can get Air Superiority, Jump Kick, Boxing, Kick, and Flurry...all of which are melee attacks. And when villains get their versions of the APP powers in Issue 7 there will likely be a few more melee attacks available to them.
A corrupter would do more damage than a dominator when using any of the above melee attacks, because damage is his primary function. But control is the dominator's primary function; damage is his secondary. That's why my Ice corruptor's hold powers aren't as good as a dominator's hold powers, and that's why a dominator's attacks aren't as damaging as a corruptor's attacks...regardless of whether they are ranged or melee.
Besides, the melee difference is only 5% anyway, so it isn't like corruptors are getting some kind of significant "advantage" over dominators. Throw a hold on something and run up and melee it. If the attack numbers are basically equivalent, the corruptor's ranged attack will only be doing about 5% more than the dominator's melee attack...and the dominator will likely even be in less danger than the corruptor because of his control powers and Domination.
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Ok, I did some testing using the Sonic Debuffs, to figure out which part of the above it uses.
It does NOT use a Debuff set at all. It uses the R Res Dmg line.
Defender Shriek has a -20% Res, Corr Shriek has a -15% Res, and Blaster Shriek has a -13% Res.
If I try using the R Debuff Dmg/Dam. Defender Shriek's -Res would be a scalar of 1.6. If we then apply that 1.6 scalar to Blaster, it says blaster would debuff by 11.2% which isn't the case.
I then tried, for the hell of it, the R Res Dmg line. Defender Shriek under this table has a Scalar of 2. Using that 2 scalar to Blaster it comes out to 13%, which is on the dot. Same with Corruptor.
I hope this helps ya'll out some.
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Very interesting. Thanks for the info!
iakona. Is there a Recharge Buff chart in there some place?
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iakona. Is there a Recharge Buff chart in there some place?
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Unfortunately, no, I've not seen any data on recharge buffs.
I've been testing /Psi's recharge debuff recently. Psi Dart's debuff at level 25 lasts about 5.8 seconds. If this debuff had the same level scaling as hold/sleep/fear/etc, then at level 1 it should only last 4.7 seconds. I'm almost positive that even at level 1 it lasted nearly 6 seconds so I'm inclined to believe there is no level-based scaling, and possibly not any AT-based scaling either for recharge debuffs. Not sure about recharge buffs though, but I'd guess not.
I believe recharge buffs are always fixed values and duration. For example, Accelerate Metabolism is a 30% Recharge Reduction for Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors, and lasts 2 minutes. I don't have a full set of Kins with Speed boost, but that would be another thing to test. But in general, I believe caster level and AT doesn't matter. For debuffs, I would expect the same. However, it would be nice to know if relative level scaling applies to the duration or debuff %. For example, do debuffs last half as long and debuff for about half the % if cast against +4 mobs as compared to even con mobs.
Come to think of it, it would be nice to know exactly what relative level scaling applies to. For example, I know it applies to Damage Resistance debuffs. A high level Rad Defender with Enervating Field can debuff low level mob resistance massively. Does Radiation Infection also massively debuff low level mob ToHit and Defense? I seem to remember a redname post about this from long ago. Anyone save that?
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
Um. Last I heard, the recharge buffs of Kin was less for Controllers compared to Defender.
Check the Defender guides, they list the recharge buffing.
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I don't have a full set of Kins with Speed boost, but that would be another thing to test. But in general, I believe caster level and AT doesn't matter. For debuffs, I would expect the same.
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Last I tested, both Controller and Defender Speed Boost and Siphon Speed had the same buff value (.5 and .2 respectively).
There seems to be a recharge debuff modifier however, since back in I4 there was some arena testing done on both Lingering Radiation and Snow Storm's effectiveness when casted by a controller or defender, and the debuffs were different. I'm going to take a stab that -recharge is the "Slow" modifier in the list. Since in-game -recharge and -spd are two different things, I'd guess that powers that do only -spd actually modify the run, jump, and flight speed attributes. This is hinted at in-game because if you slot slow into a power that does -spd the enhancement value window shows Run/Jump/Fly speed being modified, not an overall "slow" attribute.
Hmm, that's interesting to know.
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I don't have a full set of Kins with Speed boost, but that would be another thing to test. But in general, I believe caster level and AT doesn't matter. For debuffs, I would expect the same.
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Last I tested, both Controller and Defender Speed Boost and Siphon Speed had the same buff value (.5 and .2 respectively).
There seems to be a recharge debuff modifier however, since back in I4 there was some arena testing done on both Lingering Radiation and Snow Storm's effectiveness when casted by a controller or defender, and the debuffs were different. I'm going to take a stab that -recharge is the "Slow" modifier in the list. Since in-game -recharge and -spd are two different things, I'd guess that powers that do only -spd actually modify the run, jump, and flight speed attributes. This is hinted at in-game because if you slot slow into a power that does -spd the enhancement value window shows Run/Jump/Fly speed being modified, not an overall "slow" attribute.
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Correct, there is no "slow" attribute. The modifiers are just used to modify the scalar values of the powers, and the result is applied to the base attributes of the target. Slow powers can affect 4 attributes: flight speed, running speed, jumping speed, and recharge. These same attributes are used for powers like flight or speed boost. The difference is whether the modifier applied to the attribute is positive or negative. It's possible that the Slow modifier in the chart is only used for certain powers. Other powers may have the values built in and not reference the modifiers.
Am I blind? Or do I not see a hold table?
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Am I blind? Or do I not see a hold table?
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You're not blind. The hold table does not exist (at least not in any of the extensive amounts of data I've checked). My best guess is that hold powers simply use the sleep or stun table, although that's purely a guess and I have no data to back it up at this time.
Ok, well. My lv 12 Nin/TA MM has Ice Arrow which holds for around 6 seconds to even con minions.
So, if a Defender with TA with Ice Arrow at lv 12 also holds for 6 seconds, that would make it a Stun modifier. But if the Defender holds for closer to 8 seconds it would be a Sleep modifier. I guess. (Since MM's have same Stun modifiers, but 80% the sleep modifier)
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The healing tables are set up a bit differently. The differences between the ATs are set all the way from 1-50, so there's no variation in comparative effectiveness, unlike the damage and HP scales. The "base" values for the healing mods are held by masterminds and dominators. The calculations for healing powers are exactly the same as for damage; simply find your AT and level, and multiply it by the scalar healing value for the power. Example: Alkaloid (level 1 mastermind power) has a scalar healing value of 3.0, so a level 25 MM would heal for 3.0 * 58.69 = 176.07 points of damage.
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Did you make up that Scalar value? 'cause my lv 3 poison MM heals for 16.08. Which would be like a 1.32 Scalar value?
Going to roll up another poison MM and test the heal at lv 1. Should come out to like 11.88 if it's 1.32 Scalar.
EDIT: Actually, forgot I had a lv 12 Poison MM. Logged on him, he healed for 48.33, which is with a 39.1% boost. So that means 48.33/1.391 = 34.74 base heal. 34.74/26.31 (heal mod for lv 12) comes out to a 1.32 Scalar.
Man, no wonders ya can't keep anything alive with the poison heal.
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The healing tables are set up a bit differently. The differences between the ATs are set all the way from 1-50, so there's no variation in comparative effectiveness, unlike the damage and HP scales. The "base" values for the healing mods are held by masterminds and dominators. The calculations for healing powers are exactly the same as for damage; simply find your AT and level, and multiply it by the scalar healing value for the power. Example: Alkaloid (level 1 mastermind power) has a scalar healing value of 3.0, so a level 25 MM would heal for 3.0 * 58.69 = 176.07 points of damage.
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Did you make up that Scalar value? 'cause my lv 3 poison MM heals for 16.08. Which would be like a 1.32 Scalar value?
Going to roll up another poison MM and test the heal at lv 1. Should come out to like 11.88 if it's 1.32 Scalar.
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Yes, 3.0 is an incorrect value for Alkaloid. I was just trying to give an easy explanation of how the system worked, and I was using the erroneous information in hero builder to get that 3.0 value. I didn't notice the error until long after the edit window had closed for the post.
Got'cha. <Sigh> amazing how many error's the builders have these days. They used to be so spot on. cest la vie I suppose.
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Assuming I'm getting my numbers and stuff right.
Hopped on my lv38 TA/A defender. With Ice Arrow 3 slotted SO for Hold, Ice Arrow lasted for about 22 seconds (2secs after it recharged.. lol).
That means unenhanced it's around 11.4 secs duration. Defender's have a Stun and Sleep modifier of 1.37
Which means Ice Arrow has a 8.235 (might be 8.25) Scalar value.
Now we look at the MM Ice Arrow, which at lv 12 was approx 6 seconds. Which MM's have a 1.11 ranged stun modifier, and a 0.888 ranged sleep modifier. So, I'm going to have to say that Ice Arrow uses the ranged sleep modifier. 8.235 * 0.888 = 7.3 secs. (Where as if it was the stun modifier it'd be 8.235 * 1.11 = 9.14 and I am very certain Ice Arrow wasn't close to half recharged).
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I've just finished compiling and formatting a spreadsheet containing all the AT-based data that I have. I've set it up so that you just enter your AT and Level, and it lists all the Minimum, Base, Max, MaxMax (cap), and Modifier values for the given AT and Level. I've also set up the modifiers so that you can enter an in-game value next to the corresponding modifier, and it will show you the scalar value; or you can enter a known scalar value next to a modifier, and it will show the actual in-game value.
If you'd like a copy of this spreadsheet (it's a Quattro Pro X3 file), send me a PM with your e-mail address. Also, if anyone wants to host this 1.3 MB file on their website, feel free to do so.
I'll eventually be making one of these for the NPC values, too; it's just a matter of finding time to put it all together.
Thanks for the spreadsheet .. amazing work. I've created a mini online-calculator from those numbers, and the spreadsheet Iakona mentions is available to download from this page also:
http://www.nofuture.org.uk/coh/databank/iakona.php
The truth isn't out there, it's in Iakona's spreadsheet
Edit: I converted all the BI's I had into Iakona's system and the numbers are also on that page. They are very old BI's from about 6 months ago I think, and there are many many gaps in the data to boot.
Can already tell it's not working right, RedTomax.
Mastermind HP = Blaster HP? No way in heck lol.
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Ok, bit of a dumb question. Are you looking for assistance in gathering the damage scale values of all of the powers, or is there a way that you're able to dig that up? I've already been trying to generate what numbers I can, so I can send them your way if it's needed.