Issue 7 Press Release on MMORPG.com
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-30 15:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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We shouldn't have to share the development sandbox.
CoV is suppose to have it's own development sadnbox; we were told this in the beginning.
That way both games get updated, not just one.
The Devs changed their minds (without telling us) however, and people are irate about it.
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I sometimes think I'm the only one who's not the slightest bit irritated by this dev quote (if it is a quote, I've never been able to find it).
Why?
Because it's a bad idea. Totally disparate development teams working on an application with this much shared code is an express train to Nightmare Town (for the developers involved) with a stopover in Bugsville (for the end users).
It's the kind of idea that software company managers with no experience writing actual code come up with, announce at annual employee meetings, and which gets quietly buried by the worker bees within three months in order to keep the process working.
(There, I said it. Sorry, the programmer in me had to gripe for a minute. 
)
Edit: Two separate content teams -- design, art, dialogue, etc. -- that I'll buy. But not development.
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YES.
And the whole accursed Special ED thing came about for exactly this reason - the code works better and is more maintainable when characters have the same db structure. They _had_ to provide inherent powers for all the ATs, to prevent otherwise ugly bugs. Since enhancement-slotting limits were required to balance scaling issues that were messing up playability for extreme builds, and they had time to design it into CoV from the start, it's obvious why they would work better for villains than heroes. It's also obvious that they did have two separate groups for a significant time, because they had to fold it back into the CoH tree with the I5 and I6 releases. And it's pretty clear that they didn't put much thought at all into what was necessary for heroes in the way of innate powers that worked well.
(Yeah, they should fix the heroes now.)
And, separate art and content and scripting groups, that's also obvious, although it would be nice to see some integration there too.
What they really need, though, is a better way to test some of this stuff so that people won't find the latest bugfix making it impossible to play the game on their supposedly higher-end computer because the engine suddenly relies on graphical features that are missing from half the player-base's PCs.
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What happened to a team on each project?
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I keep seeing this, so I have to wonder if I was the only one who presumed the different teams were only existing before CoV was released? Or, more specifically, that the resource allocation and design deadlines were kept distinct only until CoV hit the shelves?
I never thought they'd keep the games completely isolated once they both existed, coupling together in a PvP frenzy. I'm sure different people are assigned different coding tasks -- some CoV, some CoH -- but as an ongoing, perpetual situation? Hardly.
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I think the point people are making in referring back to the "separate design teams" posts is not that they care much about the org charts at Cryptic, but that that behind-the-scenes peek into the org chart was given to us to assure us that the development of CoV was not going to stop the forward progress of CoH.
So, when we all rabble-roused that CoV was taking time away from developments promised for CoH, the devs came along and said "Not true. Look at our separate design teams. See, a whole design team just of you! So, don't worry about getting short shrift for you CoHers. All is well."
Whether or not they chose to re-org after CoV came out is somewhat academic. As are questions of whether the coding teams, content teams, and/or dev teams are now combined or separate. As are questions as to whether this imagined org chart is or is not efficient.
The point is that when people voiced concern that CoH would be getting short shrift to enable CoV, the devs pointed to the separate dev teams as an example to reassure CoHers that they would, in fact, NOT be getting short shrift, and yet...well, you know where it goes from there.
In short: Cryptic assured us CoH's development would not be neglected. How they assured us (separate dev teams) is not the main point.
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City of Heroes will receive a cool graphics upgrade, new base items (Empowerment stations!) and access to Recluses Victory.
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I'm sorry.. but you can't say Base Items are a Coh addition when they require you to own CoV to access. If you make it so anyone can enter, own, and create a base without CoV, then you can say they are a CoH addition.
So, according to the release notes, if you don't own CoV all you get is a graphical update and a PVP zone? It's gonna be a long wait for any new hero stuff I guess. More's the pity.
Statesman,
Some of us are dissapointed, not because we don't like CoV, but because the last couple content updates for CoH were heavily clouded by the I5 nerfs and ED with I6. I for one was really hopeful that I'd have some great CoH content on the horizon to look forward to... and maybe even help to get over the mixed feelings about the last two issues.
That being said, I continue to have fun with CoH, and will eventually settle on a CoV main I'm sure. However, I'm still wishing for things like content in CoH hazard zones, revamped TFs, new high level content (non-PvP), and maybe even non-combat skills someday. I got my hopes up that I7 might bring something in the way of new content for CoH, but it looks like I'll be waiting for quite a while.
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For those who have speculated that Newspaper missions are coming to City of Heroes, they arent
yet. Thats coming a little later in the year. Id like to add something different to the CoH system
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As long as CoH-specific players have had to wait for some quality additions and content, I think you've about overdone that cute teaser bit. But that's just me. Start putting some real cards on the table please, Statesman.
I'm a smidge upset, I admit.
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For those who have speculated that Newspaper missions are coming to City of Heroes, they arent
yet. Thats coming a little later in the year. Id like to add something different to the CoH system
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As long as CoH-specific players have had to wait for some quality additions and content, I think you've about overdone that cute teaser bit. But that's just me. Start putting some real cards on the table please, Statesman.
I'm a smidge upset, I admit.
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Based on the fact that they went more indepth with their description of the graphics, I'd say they're updating the CoH graphics considerably compared to previous updates. How much time do you think that'd take? A week? I would laugh at you, then. In the most loving way, of course.
Now, for those that keep bringing up the seperate teams, etc, etc, they haven't said that since CoV's been released, as far as I know. Add onto that.. there's a new NCSoft or Cryptic (think it's actually Cryptic?) game that's in development that we've already seen devs in the dev digest say goodbye to other devs about as they go to work on the new game.
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For those who have speculated that Newspaper missions are coming to City of Heroes, they arent
yet. Thats coming a little later in the year. Id like to add something different to the CoH system
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As long as CoH-specific players have had to wait for some quality additions and content, I think you've about overdone that cute teaser bit. But that's just me. Start putting some real cards on the table please, Statesman.
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Again.. I hope I8 has one of the quicker 2-month releases rather then the normal 3 or 4 month ones. It already looking like a year gap between CoH PvE updates... 
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Is the plan to make CoH a "finished" game, because that's not what I expected from an MMO.
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Ok, this is the sort of conversation thread that is going to cause the devs to roll their eyes at us.
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It wasn't directed at the devs....it was directed at a poster who suggested that CoV needs more attention because CoH is practically "finished".
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Jack himself said that there were CoH-specific pieces considered for I7 release... so, fine. Throw the heroes a (small) bone, one that won't disrupt I7 and I8 schedules too much. Pick one nifty piece of CoH functionality that's close to release, isn't mired hip-deep in balance issues, and can be easily "broken off" from the rest of the I8 development (and QA) effort. Then, bend the unwritten rule that content updates get saved for updates, and work that chunk into a patch when it's finished... preferably, no more than a month or so after I7 goes live.
There. Done.
That's all I'm asking for right now, the rest can wait. Is that such an unreasonable request? I don't think it falls under the heading of "Issue Hysteria".
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Well said. 
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States, i know CoV needs content to fill in the end game now. I accept that.
I have no issue with MOST of the content being CoV only.
I do however not see a reason to give Brutes yet another armor set, for a total of six, while the tankers have been complaining of their primary just having 4 options since release.
Energy aura should be given to tankers simply because we already have energy melee.
And electric armor should also be there, it fits perfectly with the elemental nature of all tankers (other than invuln).
I also know that brutes do need more offensive sets since they have less than tankers, so i do realize them, but also think warmace, axe and broadsword should be available to them, maybe with a bit diferent art.
PLEASE dont ignore the tanker's lack of armor sets any longer! I know shields are comming but that is
A) far away
B) still short of what brutes have
C) still no synergy set for Energy Melee despite it already existing.
Just giving tankers energy aura and maybe hopefuly electric/electric would alone make many think this ACTUALLY has CoH content AND at the same time will fill one of the long time tanker issues.
If the sets exits i see no reason why they cant fit a tanker with just a bit of training room testing.
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QFT!
I was about to post the same exact argument. I shoulda figured that someone beat me to it. Cool.
Give Tankers a little love for crying-out-loud!
<.< you can let a kitty dream that the devs are listening can't you? it's not like we haven't posted about water/ponds/fishtanks/etc for bases since they where added to beta...
I am Sleepy! Hear me Yawn!!
Veni, Vidi, Dormivi!
-Alpha Kitty of the Guardian chapter of the Legion of Catgirls
Never forget--Sleepy could conquer the world, if she could just stay awake long enough. =) -Llanwe
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So, bascially, we have NO idea what's still being worked on for CoH. Perhaps a list of the top five things currently being developed for CoH would help us. It could be updated monthly or bi-monthly, perhaps with explainations as to why things drop off or move up.
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Thats asking an awful lot Bounty. As it is we're lucky if we get patch notes that aren't filled out mostly by players. Then there's the whole Known Issues section of the site that is grossly incomplete...
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Yeah, it's a long shot...and there are some "cons" to be worked out....
But I still think it'd be a great PR move, and would help control some of the assumptions/emotions on the board.
Oh...and it should work out better than the "vague" hints about development that the devs drop on the boards anyway.
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<.< you can let a kitty dream that the devs are listening can't you? it's not like we haven't posted about water/ponds/fishtanks/etc for bases since they where added to beta...
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What is better that they are listening? Or that they sometimes do seem to be able to read your mind and please you? 
Now i do think they saw something very nasty on my mind and decided to neglect on purpose my favorite AT... 
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Oh...and it should work out better than the "vague" hints about development that the devs drop on the boards anyway.
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/dev speak "...but we have all this great stuff in development that we are going to let you all in on "soon"..."
Two Issues later
/dev speak "...we still have some great things in store for you, but I can't give too many details now. You'll be hearing more about it "soon"....."
Another Issue passes
/dev speak "...yep, we haven't forgotten about you. There is some really great stuff on the drawing board that you'll be hearing about "soon". No, really. I have it all listed on the white board behind, just be patient."
Another issue rolls around.............
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I think the point people are making in referring back to the "separate design teams" posts is not that they care much about the org charts at Cryptic, but that that behind-the-scenes peek into the org chart was given to us to assure us that the development of CoV was not going to stop the forward progress of CoH.
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"...while CoV was still under pre-release development" is the bit that I (still) think everyone's missing. Don't misunderstand, I'm not exactly thrilled that CoH isn't getting more with the new issue. I'm not terribly disappointed either since I've personally yet to exhaust the existing game... but that's a whole 'nuther issue.
I just think the "seperate developer team" quote was a specific statement addressing a specific timeframe and that people have subsequently blown it way out of proportion.
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Whether or not they chose to re-org after CoV came out is somewhat academic. As are questions of whether the coding teams, content teams, and/or dev teams are now combined or separate. As are questions as to whether this imagined org chart is or is not efficient.
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Then I submit that people should drop the whole "you lied to us about the different development teams" implications. IMO, he didn't. It ceased being applicable once CoV appeared on storeshelves. We now have one big CoX as one big project.
Granted, it makes the whole "should there be more CoH stuff in this issue?" question a lot less straightforward, but c'est la vie.
(I don't disagree with the disappointment, I just hate what I perceive as bad rhetoric/logical arguments.)
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dev speak "...but we have all this great stuff in development that we are going to let you all in on "soon"..."
Two Issues later
/dev speak "...we still have some great things in store for you, but I can't give too many details now. You'll be hearing more about it "soon"....."
Another Issue passes
/dev speak "...yep, we haven't forgotten about you. There is some really great stuff on the drawing board that you'll be hearing about "soon". No, really. I have it all listed on the white board behind, just be patient."
Another issue rolls around.............
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That's not what usually disappoints me. Its when I find out that, in some little thread, or in some unknown article, a dev says that a feature has been indefinitely delayed.
Usually, someone else has found the comment, and drops it on me in some thread....and my heart breaks a little
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I just think the "seperate developer team" quote was a specific statement addressing a specific timeframe and that people have subsequently blown it way out of proportion.
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I disagree. The community expressed concern that they would be getting short shrift. The devs assured them otherwise, they didn't add a caveat of: "but only until CoV releases" (that I recall) to said reassurance.
Note, I'm not calling them liars or damnding they set their org chart based on a single post. Just noting that by answering those concerns with the "separate dev teams" bit they set an expectation that they failed to deliver on. They could simply have kept silent and let the assumption (that CoH would get short shrift) lie.
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to have formed those expectations given that the devs could have simply stayed silent on the issue or admitted that CoH would suffer for a while instead of pointing to a separate dev team.
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to mention that incident in a thread where some people repeatedly dismiss them their perspective on the lack of PVE content for CoH.
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I disagree. The community expressed concern that they would be getting short shrift. The devs assured them otherwise, they didn't add a caveat of: "but only until CoV releases" (that I recall) to said reassurance.
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Understood. I hope Statesman or someone comes to clarify, but I just never interpreted the statement without that caveat. It was implicit (to my mind) because of when people were expressing their concerns: during the initial, pre-beta code push that we presumed Cryptic was doing based on dribbles of information we got about CoV's release date, features, etc. It seemed perfectly obvious (to me) that the teams would merge to a great degree once CoV got released.
I'm pretty sure you're right; I don't think they ever stated "but then the two shall become one once the box ascends the shelves." It just never occured to me it'd be any other way -- hence my initial question.
NONE of which addresses whether this issue offers enough stuff for CoH players. (I don't think it does.)
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As several have noted, I7 features content mostly for City of Villains (levels 41 to 50, in fact). This is exactly what we did for CoH. City of Heroes will receive a cool graphics upgrade, new base items (Empowerment stations!) and access to Recluses Victory. Its true that CoV received more attention, but thats mainly because we needed to fill out the levels. I had the option of releasing I7 or waiting until we could fill out the City of Heroes content. Obviously, I chose the former. New content should get out there when its ready. We'll be focusing equally as much as possible on each product moving into the future...
For those who have speculated that Newspaper missions are coming to City of Heroes, they arent
yet. Thats coming a little later in the year. Id like to add something different to the CoH system
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What about the other dozen things that have been long since backburnered? I don't play COV, I don't participate in PvP.. It would have been nice to throw us COH only subscribers a bone too. How about some new missions? I hear Azuria lost the keys to the MAGI vault again..
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I hear Azuria lost the keys to the MAGI vault again..
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There's a door on that vault?
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Again.. I hope I8 has one of the quicker 2-month releases rather then the normal 3 or 4 month ones. It already looking like a year gap between CoH PvE updates...
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CuppaJo PM'ed, said no earlier than April for Live, Possibly May if something goes awry.
Given it's probable size, we'll likely get it late feb/early march, and it'll spend a good month on test.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
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Scappers need some help there too. Only 4 secondaries to choose from.
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Agree, but the issue is bigger if you are talking about your primary. Heck even masterminds are getting a thug set to bump up their set count. Even so i do think scrappers should at least get a variant of Ninjitsu
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However, with tankers sitting at 7 melee options and scrappers at 6, don't you think it's a bit strange to prioritize new melee sets for tankers over new melee sets for scrappers?
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As several have noted, I7 features content mostly for City of Villains (levels 41 to 50, in fact). This is exactly what we did for CoH. City of Heroes will receive a cool graphics upgrade, new base items (Empowerment stations!) and access to Recluses Victory. Its true that CoV received more attention, but thats mainly because we needed to fill out the levels. I had the option of releasing I7 or waiting until we could fill out the City of Heroes content. Obviously, I chose the former. New content should get out there when its ready. We'll be focusing equally as much as possible on each product moving into the future...
For those who have speculated that Newspaper missions are coming to City of Heroes, they arent
yet. Thats coming a little later in the year. Id like to add something different to the CoH system
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Statesman I advise you to fire your developers and hire some icelandic programmers. I cannot begin to ponder how a game as widespread as the CoX series nickel and dimes ever single patch, puts in content that is pretty CRAP, and blunders the balancing of ATs.
I mean... tanks have no role. I been waiting for something to play 41+ besides the oldschool AV missions. Your lvl 50 TFs take way too long; ever hear about how WoW keeps instances open so you won't blow the misson in one disconnect? Oh... yeah ... and about the lag... its horrible. My PC can take anything you wanna through at it and since the beginning of Peregrine there is enough lag and Disconnected from Mapservers to make me sick.
Please go back to the former glory your staff was. To be honest I have paid for 3 CoV boxes now... 1 DVD, 1 online, 1 CD and I have done 3 CD sets for CoH. I love the game but throw us a freaking bone.
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A more boring and far more likely guess would be an enhancement store. If I'm wrong, I'll be happily surprised.
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Nope. Temp powers/buffs.
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O_O don't suppose the idea for this came from ppls posts in This thread! did they o.o
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I dare bet Empowering Stations have been worked on for a very long time, and most likely on the drawing boards since before CoV even went beta.