Whirlwind changed in last patch?
Great. I just respec'd into this for the continual bouncing facilities which was great for bosses but now I guess that tactic is out of the window.
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Am I the only guy who's actually tried this out extensively to know how much of an effect it's making? You just run after them now...like any other knockback power. I guess only I can live with it. :|
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One of my main's a Stormie. I pretty much know how that works. I had Whirlwind on my Tank to keep enemies near him and lower their damage output a bit as they get tossed around. If I want a Tank that pushes enemies into a corner, I can go back to my Stormie who also has a whole lot of other neat tricks that make him generally preferable and superior in this position.
Winston Churchill
/agree
Apology is great and all, but an apology followed by duplicate instances is annoying.
And I don't care what anybody says. If you're gonna change the aspect of a power like that, give us a respec or at least let people know before they pick the damned thing. It's akin to cutting the distance of a snipe power in half for a guy who likes to play his blaster as ranged. Not quite as tempting of a power now, is it?
wow great. So now I have a power that is, for all intents and purposes for a Kinetics defender, garbage. I was using it to aid squishies. See a boss on them, hit whirlwind and follow and keep the thing on it's back while using the flopping mob to Transfuse off of. Wow, yeah, some SERIOUS 'sploits there. Tried doing my usual tactic the other day and my transfusion goes off halfway across the room as the mob is sent flying. *big thumbs up*
So, Hasten got it's def removed, SSpeed got it's stealth removed in PvP and Suppressed in PvE, and WW had it's entire fundamental use buggered. Watch, now they'll have it so every time you use flurry you lose 125 xp. Or they'll add a 20sec recharge on Air Supp because you can use it to chain-KD a +2 boss. OMG 'SPLOITS!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!!
It is SERIOUSLY about time you handed out a free respec per month, because what somebody uses reliably one day is utter CRAP the next, and they can't fix it till they level up high enough to run the NEXT respec trial.
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wow great. So now I have a power that is, for all intents and purposes for a Kinetics defender, garbage. I was using it to aid squishies. See a boss on them, hit whirlwind and follow and keep the thing on it's back while using the flopping mob to Transfuse off of. Wow, yeah, some SERIOUS 'sploits there. Tried doing my usual tactic the other day and my transfusion goes off halfway across the room as the mob is sent flying. *big thumbs up*
So, Hasten got it's def removed, SSpeed got it's stealth removed in PvP and Suppressed in PvE, and WW had it's entire fundamental use buggered. Watch, now they'll have it so every time you use flurry you lose 125 xp. Or they'll add a 20sec recharge on Air Supp because you can use it to chain-KD a +2 boss. OMG 'SPLOITS!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!!
It is SERIOUSLY about time you handed out a free respec per month, because what somebody uses reliably one day is utter CRAP the next, and they can't fix it till they level up high enough to run the NEXT respec trial.
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And the people that cry DOOOOM can't seem to see that exploits *must* be blocked off, or eventually more people will be taking advantage of it.
It can be upsetting when your normal usage is changed too, but you have to live with it *if* it doesn't open new and different exploits.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Your knockup throws the enemy 10 feet away? What powers are you using?
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I am using Levitate and there is some horizontal movement. I shouldn't have mentioned 10' as that was confusing. If I use levitate on someone who is near an edge (building, crate, whatever) they often fall either draped on the edge or fall over the edge. So there is some sort of variable horizontal movement.
I didn't mean Levitate moved people 10' horizontally--I was trying to ask if WW was moving them a few feet or 10 feet or farther than that. I thought the ragdoll could account for some horizontal but not a lot.
I see now that it is KB and not a ragdoll consequence.
Pinnacle
Glowworm * Brrr * Lilinoe
Protector
Kid Trance * Ms. Impala * Red Helen
Virtue
Pooka Pete
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Your knockup throws the enemy 10 feet away? What powers are you using?
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I am using Levitate and there is some horizontal movement. I shouldn't have mentioned 10' as that was confusing. If I use levitate on someone who is near an edge (building, crate, whatever) they often fall either draped on the edge or fall over the edge. So there is some sort of variable horizontal movement.
I didn't mean Levitate moved people 10' horizontally--I was trying to ask if WW was moving them a few feet or 10 feet or farther than that. I thought the ragdoll could account for some horizontal but not a lot.
I see now that it is KB and not a ragdoll consequence.
Pinnacle
Glowworm * Brrr * Lilinoe
Protector
Kid Trance * Ms. Impala * Red Helen
Virtue
Pooka Pete
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wow great. So now I have a power that is, for all intents and purposes for a Kinetics defender, garbage. I was using it to aid squishies. See a boss on them, hit whirlwind and follow and keep the thing on it's back while using the flopping mob to Transfuse off of. Wow, yeah, some SERIOUS 'sploits there. Tried doing my usual tactic the other day and my transfusion goes off halfway across the room as the mob is sent flying. *big thumbs up*
So, Hasten got it's def removed, SSpeed got it's stealth removed in PvP and Suppressed in PvE, and WW had it's entire fundamental use buggered. Watch, now they'll have it so every time you use flurry you lose 125 xp. Or they'll add a 20sec recharge on Air Supp because you can use it to chain-KD a +2 boss. OMG 'SPLOITS!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!!
It is SERIOUSLY about time you handed out a free respec per month, because what somebody uses reliably one day is utter CRAP the next, and they can't fix it till they level up high enough to run the NEXT respec trial.
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And the people that cry DOOOOM can't seem to see that exploits *must* be blocked off, or eventually more people will be taking advantage of it.
It can be upsetting when your normal usage is changed too, but you have to live with it *if* it doesn't open new and different exploits.
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I agree with you for the most part as I can see (with some regret) that a nerf is coming for Air Sup in the future. But the devs have shown a history, with some notable exceptions, of not only OVERnerfing powers but of overlooking the effects those nerfs have had on powersets that really didn't need nerfing in the first place...and then there's the "Whoops! We forgot to let ya know!" factor. It's like going into surgery for an ingrown toenail and then you wake up to the Doc handing you your shoes and saying, "Oops! Won't be needing this left one anymore...we had to take the leg". LOL
It's not DOOOOOOOOM...but it's sure damned annoying.
Geez a Red name pops up, and now everyone has Whirlwind j/k
I only have this on one toon, and it fits his concept.
The nice thing about whirlwind beyond not rooted attacking was that in a team, you coud effectively take one dangerous mob out of combat...like say a purple jump bot during a respec.
Now, its much more handy in pvp. though its not auto hit, it can save you from AS.
I try not to guzzle inspirations in pvp, (cause if I lose to a human..who cares, no debt) but i'm certain the few times I was tp foe'd into a box with 2 stalkers and a corruptor waiting for me, there was 1 or 2 times my blaster could have escaped the death trap alive.
My only complaint is that leaving it on for extended period makes my head all wonky.
I'll have to try going into first person mode and see if that helps.
_Castle_ (and all the renames), this "missed" patch notes thing is getting old. How many months has it been since Statesman said this problem needed to change? Why are we still seeing things missed on every single patch? We spin our wheels for a week or more trying to figure out if something is a bug or a "fix." Why?
I don't think this is intentional. I'm sure it generates more fallout than simply putting the correct bullet point on the patches notes would. Come on folks, what's the problem?
Frustrated,
SuperChris
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For those of you complaining about the seriousness of this crime you really need to take a chill pill and relax. I'm sure every instance of missed patch notes has been an oversight that the Devs regret. I'm sure none of you have forgotten anything at work ESPECIALLY when it involved the work of several people culminating results. The effort these guys go to making patch notes available has been very impressive to me (much better than some other unmentioned MMORPGs). I applaud them. I REALLY applaud the fact they fess up to their mistakes and apologize; they're almost human o.O
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Any decent project manager out there knows how to keep track of revisions and changes or else the project gets skewed from it's track. How hard is it to put a piece of paper on the wall, and as you make a change note that along with the build number? Then when it is time to release make your notes from everyone's paper(overly simplistic example for sarcasm). Yes accidents happen but over and over again? I'd love to be able to tell my boss, oops forgot that, but after the 20th time I'd be looking for a new job.
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Or they'll add a 20sec recharge on Air Supp because you can use it to chain-KD a +2 boss. OMG 'SPLOITS!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!!
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No offense, but would you really be surprised if AS was changed? This is coming from someone who used it on his scrapper back before i1 when most thought it was garbage.
Now, everyone and his brother has it and they are using it for the side effect which isn't really even part of the power (-fly is supposed to be the main draw). I think the days of people bragging about juggling bosses and the great control power of AS are numbered and have been for quite a while.
Also, someone earlier mentioned team tp is a useless power. I use it all the time on one of my characters and no I won't say how or why. But it is FAR from useless.
Hah. Actually I don't have Whirlwind on any of my toons. Had it on a Storm Defender I deleted just for kicks and that's about it.
I don't actually have a problem with the change to knockback, but if you are looking at it, is it possible to change the animation on it?
Maybe have a whirlwind around you without your character spinning around like a madman. And can we get rid of the sound?
seizure enducing though they may be, I wouldn't want to see them dropped. (wow the memory of it almost made me just pass out)
I am impressed though that it was singled out for change. I can count the times i've seen it in game on another toon on one hand wearing a mitten.
crazy.
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And the people that cry DOOOOM can't seem to see that exploits *must* be blocked off, or eventually more people will be taking advantage of it.
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Respectfully disagree. I am harmed much less by an exploit than by a nerf. Impairing the fun of many for the sake of balancingthe few is not a good idea.
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Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?
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Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.
Why? There was a PVE exploit involved with it, and this fix takes care of 90% of the issue.
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Point me to the people using Whirlwind to solo AVs or gain levels twice as fast as somebody who doesn't have it. Hell, point me to the people who even have Whirlwind in the first place. It would take quite a bit of searching.
Exploit my @$$.
Is a power effective? No matter how marginal that effectiveness may be, it must be nerfed!
It's getting real old.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.
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Um, why has this and the knockback changes then been added to the change notes?
I'm really wondering if Stalkers had something to do with it. Since the effect of does no damage attributed to the user, would it be possible to catch mobs in the effect without breaking thier Hidden status? With Intergration, Stamina, and 3 End Reductions + 3 KB for fun it might have been possible for them to sneak up, then lock the target into a permanent state of knockup then take care of things at thier leasure with out the target having a chance of recovery. If so, that might have constituted the "Exploit", effectively eliminating any and all risk to the Stalker character in question.
Anyone have any comments on this theory?
"And the people that cry DOOOOM can't seem to see that exploits *must* be blocked off, or eventually more people will be taking advantage of it."
Who cares?
Really, truly who honestly gives a rats behind?
Some make Exps to fast by combining their powers together to be more effective...EXPLOIT goes the cry.
Someone uses their powers in PVp to <gasp> WIN. And it's and EXPLOIT.
An exploit is getting more prestige than you pay for a Base item, and then doing it over and over.
An EXPLOIT is not using your powers as designed in new ways to greater benefit for your character and team.
Tell ya what, give everyone Brawl make us all Lvl 50 and call for a battle royal.
Knock all our HP's to the same level and make postive that the Brawl is only useful once every 5 minutes. That'll make it all better.
Then call it City of People who stand around trading punches.
Rant Off.
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Or they'll add a 20sec recharge on Air Supp because you can use it to chain-KD a +2 boss. OMG 'SPLOITS!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!!
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No offense, but would you really be surprised if AS was changed? This is coming from someone who used it on his scrapper back before i1 when most thought it was garbage.
Now, everyone and his brother has it and they are using it for the side effect which isn't really even part of the power (-fly is supposed to be the main draw). I think the days of people bragging about juggling bosses and the great control power of AS are numbered and have been for quite a while.
Also, someone earlier mentioned team tp is a useless power. I use it all the time on one of my characters and no I won't say how or why. But it is FAR from useless.
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Whatever , at the rate they are modifying/reducing powersets and pool powers , before long there wont be anything special left from any AT . Like another guy mentioned , there are way too many powers that do knockback in the game and too few that do knockdown or disorient . Why so many knockback powers ? Granted , it looks cool . But gamewise , in many many many many many situations , players arent getting any advantages from a knockback maneuver and it may even sometimes put them in bad situations . So whats the point of all this ? Devs decided to stop making mobs tougher but instead they decided to make our powers perform poorly or in some case simply against us . Seriously , if devs completely decided to remove secondary effects from powers , i dont think players would be losing that much overall . Sure , there are still some very efficient powers with efficient secondary effect ( Air superiority , Cobra Strike , etc .. ) but the ways its going , they will soon be considered exploits because they JUST work fine .
Im not yelling doom but i indeed am showing concern about the way things are going . Some of you are saying that its just a damn game , well exactly , it is just a game . There are no vital needs to change everything every months for the sake of balance .
Just let people have fun for a change ?
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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"And the people that cry DOOOOM can't seem to see that exploits *must* be blocked off, or eventually more people will be taking advantage of it."
Who cares?
Really, truly who honestly gives a rats behind?
Some make Exps to fast by combining their powers together to be more effective...EXPLOIT goes the cry.
Someone uses their powers in PVp to <gasp> WIN. And it's and EXPLOIT.
An exploit is getting more prestige than you pay for a Base item, and then doing it over and over.
An EXPLOIT is not using your powers as designed in new ways to greater benefit for your character and team.
Tell ya what, give everyone Brawl make us all Lvl 50 and call for a battle royal.
Knock all our HP's to the same level and make postive that the Brawl is only useful once every 5 minutes. That'll make it all better.
Then call it City of People who stand around trading punches.
Rant Off.
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Exactly . While devs are turning their eyes upon the happy guy who found out a way to do something with an unpopular power and judging that the happy guy is doing a little too well ; there are somewhere else a team of 8 sonic defenders that are plowing through any missions at invincible setting and never never never ever get injured due to the stacking of their shields . But that is not an exploit , these guys are raking tons of xps with 0 risk but devs probably decided that they were playing the game as intended ( sarcasm ) . Personnaly , if 8 sonic players decide to team up so they can beat anything for 0 risk then more power to them and i applaud them for their strategy . Likewise , if a single player decide to spent one power choice to get whirlwind and manage to find a way to beat a few bosses with 0 risk , well , why is that wrong ? The guy cannot constantly run that power over mobs with the endurance cost of it and i really doubt Whirlwind ever was working on AVs or Monsters . So whats the big deal about it ?
To me , devs are engaged into a witch hunt and no one could guess til where itll go . Very sad .
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
hmmm well thats a great fix for PvE, but how about a fix on the PvP side where meleers lack the ability to chase down a WW range opponent??
ei: anyone can get Web Nade to stop opponents with hover, and many ATs and powersets already include a -fly attack. Super jumpers/Super speeders have to stop to shoot or attack and then there's some suppression. TP takes up too much end to exploit like whirlwind, and the animation time in tp puts them at risk still. TP foe, SS, and Fly can be made useless with Slow debuffs. But what counters WW+SS+CJ+SJ?
My Point? every travel power and pool powers such as TP foe, hover, CJ, hasten, acro, etc. have an inheret weakness except WW+ any travel.
Point #2: WW by itself is a great and fun power because the user fights with the advantage WW provides and a draw back to. He still can be hit and he can attack while moving. Great! no problem there. The problem begins when the user combines WW with another travel power (this is especially so with CJ, SJ , and SS).
Point #3: So many players already agree that WW needs to be changed in PvP; however, the devs are faced with two very different communities that use WW for differing purposes. PvEers use it for extra control, while in PvP, WW is used to gain extraordinary survivabilty and it almost invalidates entire melee ATs. But if the devs nerf WW by increasing its end cost or getting rid of WW's ability to shoot while running, the PvE community will get upset.
Solution: WW should not be abled to be used with other Travel Powers. PvEers seldom use it with another travel power since it drains to much end. I've only seen it used to impress people in PvE. In PvP a blaster or controller can circle around a melee AT as they shoot away without ever getting touched by the meleer. Squishy ATs also have a hard time locking down a WW user since the user would be out of range if he/she is in trouble, then come back when they can take advantage. WW+SJ is an Escape power that is always on unlike Pff or PS where the user cannot attack and has to deal with animation time. Basically it is very hard to lock down a WW user while the user can attack in safety .
What do you guys think of my solution???
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hmmm well thats a great fix for PvE, but how about a fix on the PvP side where meleers lack the ability to chase down a WW range opponent??
ei: anyone can get Web Nade to stop opponents with hover, and many ATs and powersets already include a -fly attack. Super jumpers/Super speeders have to stop to shoot or attack and then there's some suppression. TP takes up too much end to exploit like whirlwind, and the animation time in tp puts them at risk still. TP foe, SS, and Fly can be made useless with Slow debuffs. But what counters WW+SS+CJ+SJ?
My Point? every travel power and pool powers such as TP foe, hover, CJ, hasten, acro, etc. have an inheret weakness except WW+ any travel.
Point #2: WW by itself is a great and fun power because the user fights with the advantage WW provides and a draw back to. He still can be hit and he can attack while moving. Great! no problem there. The problem begins when the user combines WW with another travel power (this is especially so with CJ, SJ , and SS).
Point #3: So many players already agree that WW needs to be changed in PvP; however, the devs are faced with two very different communities that use WW for differing purposes. PvEers use it for extra control, while in PvP, WW is used to gain extraordinary survivabilty and it almost invalidates entire melee ATs. But if the devs nerf WW by increasing its end cost or getting rid of WW's ability to shoot while running, the PvE community will get upset.
Solution: WW should not be abled to be used with other Travel Powers. PvEers seldom use it with another travel power since it drains to much end. I've only seen it used to impress people in PvE. In PvP a blaster or controller can circle around a melee AT as they shoot away without ever getting touched by the meleer. Squishy ATs also have a hard time locking down a WW user since the user would be out of range if he/she is in trouble, then come back when they can take advantage. WW+SJ is an Escape power that is always on unlike Pff or PS where the user cannot attack and has to deal with animation time. Basically it is very hard to lock down a WW user while the user can attack in safety .
What do you guys think of my solution???
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It makes sense.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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You guys seriously need to harden the policies on your CVS or whatever other tool you're using for version management. This happens way too often.
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Seconded.
Also, I was one of the few champions of WW out of all the CoH people I ever played/talked too, and one of the reasons was it's knock-up rather than back. WAY, WAY too many things do knock-back, it's just annoying. I have no idea what this exploit was, however, and failure to disclose it kind of leads me to believe it was something that could have been changed another way, other than a nerf, but probably not as easy from the Devs point of view.
Knock-up is so much more usefull it's not even funny, and you just happened to forget to mention this really bad change that got slipped in there, with, of course, no prior mention/discussion with the players. Missing patch notes on something that had already been discussed would be ok, I mean, who cares, but it's always something that hasn't even been brought up for the players to test that makes it to live and gets "missed" in the patch notes.
I'm sure now it's "working as intended" and we'll never get it changed back...unbelievable, how do you always manage to hit my favorite powers that I'm sure will never, never get nerfed and ignore the ones that could really use a looking at? I mean, it's WW, for chrissakes!!! It's pathetic enough, leave it alone already! *sheesh!*
Not only am I pissed about the power change, I'm pissed about constantly, CONSTANTLY "forgetting" to mention things in the patch notes. They're always nerfs too...when the hell did anyone forget to mention anything good, that players might be happy about? Slip a positive change to Burns fear effect in there and see if anyone notices it for awhile, eh? "Forget" to mention new rocketpacks for every toon with a 30 day timer! Plz...for me?
I appreciate the apology, but if you really want to make us feel better, cut the crap next time, eh? That'll show us you mean it, cause otherwise you're just "pulling a Stalker", placating us just so you can prepare to whack us around again.