Whirlwind changed in last patch?
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-23 08:57 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I'm curious what the exploit was as well. The power was explicitly designed to let you juggle an enemy. I guess the exploit had something to do with knocking an enemy up into something, but that's easier to do with knockback.
The power is still usable, but it's more of a pain in the butt now; now you'll have to find a corner to throw people into before you can juggle them.
Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball
I didn't know it was possible to attack while using whirlwind. Was it possible to juggle mobs for an indefinite amount of time while safely killing them? I know endurance would be an issue but assuming it wasn't, is the above possible? If it is that is likely what they were trying to fix/stop.
"I think I'm cute. I've got gold medals.
I've got the moves that make them all tap out.
The Angle Slam, the Ankle Lock.
Marty Jannetty...still can't walk.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt.
I'm just the sexy Kurt.
I'll make your ankle hurt."
Kurt Angle
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Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?
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Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.
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You guys seriously need to harden the policies on your CVS or whatever other tool you're using for version management. This happens way too often.
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Problem is that they don't have a "don't show patch notes on just test" code for notes.
*Because* it was to patch an exploit, it won't get told before it goes live (to keep people from abusing it greatly before the fix is in, basically.)
Still here, even after all this time!
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I didn't know it was possible to attack while using whirlwind. Was it possible to juggle mobs for an indefinite amount of time while safely killing them? I know endurance would be an issue but assuming it wasn't, is the above possible? If it is that is likely what they were trying to fix/stop.
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Hmm. Whirlwind + Fire Patch?
It's *always* the fire tankers faul, you know! 
Still here, even after all this time!
I know it was possible to combine Fly and Whirlwind, hold forward and toggle auto-follow, and juggle a mob straight up to the ceiling of a zone. But I can't see how this is exploitative. First, you get no xp for falling damage. It was mainly a coolness thing. Second, it didn't work anymore with ragdoll anyway, because mobs that are ragdolling can't be affected by knockback.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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No power is intended to be effective. If a power does what it appears to do by the description, then it is malfunctioning and needs to be brought in line with the rest of the powers.
I'm curious as to how Whirlwind stacks up against Repel now, since they're similar powers. Is whirlwind substantially more expensive?
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LOL, I love that first line! Sometimes it feels like that way!
As to all the people that keep saying 'chill' and such, well we might if it wasn't a pattern. It seems we constantly have to catch the undocumented changes and force the issue rather than just have them tell us something has changed. It gets very frustrating at times.
And let me add that if this is another of those 'game-breaking' exploits, I have only seen maybe 5 or 10 players use this power in 18 months of play and I have never seen anyone use it to gain 'risk-free' XP.
you just need to understand that the test server isn't there to test the game, it's there to test the notes.
I personally think this is rather sad, as Whirlwind used to offer a different functionality than Repel (and whatever the EA version of it is called), Hurricane or Repulsion Bomb. The power's just gotten a little less unique. Meh.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
One thing i finally understand in this game is that : If a power is actually useful and gives you any kind of advantage against an enemy tougher than you , it quickly becomes called an exploit and it get nerfed to oblivion .
There is no place for creative players and as soon as you devise a few new combat styles that gives you the upper hand , devs will soon either : modify the enemy so theyll be immuned , modify the power so it dont work anymore or theyll simply modify the power so it becomes basically a waste to have it due to its lack of efficiency .
It is now another power to add to the long list of annoying/useless/unfun/tedious/ineffective/dangerous/unwanted powers that the game is offering us to pretend players have more options in game ( sarcasm ) . You can now add Whirlwind to the list : Team teleport , Flurry , Jump kick , Phase shift , Challenge , Stimulant , Invisibility , Increase Density , Bonfire , Boost range and more .
Feel free to complete the list and add more powers that simply arent useful enough to be worth taking .
Remember : If it helps you , it is broken . And it shall get fixed .
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
I so hate to be that guy...but seriously, where is all the fun going? Is it in the fridge, or perhaps the microwave? Stuck to the bottom corner of the table, covered in old saliva? Waiting outside patiently in the recyling bin for a homeless person to swipe it for 3 cents? Acting as a decorative urinal cake in the expected location?
*nail*
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
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Whirlwind has always done knock up, now it is doing knockback. I did not see any patch notes on this change. I do recall some discussion about the changes being made to the way knockdown works because of ragdoll physics but understand it was suppose to be reversed. Is this an unnoted patch change or a bug?
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Yes, the change was done purposefully. No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.
Why? There was a PVE exploit involved with it, and this fix takes care of 90% of the issue.
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When making the power much weaker for PvE in this way, wouldn't some compensation be in order? Such as a reduced End cost?
Am I the only guy who's actually tried this out extensively to know how much of an effect it's making? You just run after them now...like any other knockback power. I guess only I can live with it. :|
As I stated in my post, I have used it and begun to change the way I use it. I find it a little harder to use than Hurricane, as the animation does not clearly show the AoE (granted hurricane's AoE extends a tiny bit past the animation, but so far it has been easier to judge hurricane's AoE for me). I often find myself meaning to go around an enemy so I can send them back at the group or into a corner, but I clip them and send them flying back towards the next mob. Maybe with more practice this issue will fade.
Did Whirlwind not have a cap on the number of mobs it affected? Would adding a cap of 10 mobs have solved whatever exploit existed, without punishing the rest of us? If so, is it just too hard to work a cap for whirlwind? In my personal experience I rarely have more than 5 enemies in my whirlwind, so I do not know if it could be used to juggle an obsecenly large herd, but that seems to me to be a likely possibility for an exploit.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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No, a patch note was not generated -- my fault, sorry! I simply forgot to note the change down.
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Imagine that. 
Like someone else posted .. time for a respect on my tank. I picked whirlwind because I thought it would cool power and help me grab and keep aggro while waiting for my attacks to recharge when wearing granite. I posted about this previously and never got an answer on the change.
Overall I am miffed my power choice was changed but as others stated get your act to gether with the patch notes. Castle you do a good job of answering our question and such in the past can you please stay on top of all the stealth changes.
Super Tough
Lvl 45 Stone/Ice tank
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I find it a little harder to use than Hurricane, as the animation does not clearly show the AoE (granted hurricane's AoE extends a tiny bit past the animation, but so far it has been easier to judge hurricane's AoE for me).
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Hurricane's visual effect, like all powers, scales with the height of the character using it. As tall character will appear to generate a larger hurricane than a shorter character. However, the area the power affects is always the same. You probably just have a short character.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
My hurricane user is about 6', maybe a bit taller. But my whirlwind user is short, 4' 6' ish, maybe that is my problem. Hopefully, practice will help. I still wish it had remained knockdown.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Yes...
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For those of you complaining about the seriousness of this crime you really need to take a chill pill and relax. I'm sure every instance of missed patch notes has been an oversight that the Devs regret. I'm sure none of you have forgotten anything at work ESPECIALLY when it involved the work of several people culminating results. The effort these guys go to making patch notes available has been very impressive to me (much better than some other unmentioned MMORPGs). I applaud them. I REALLY applaud the fact they fess up to their mistakes and apologize; they're almost human o.O
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This sort of attitude is acceptable the first 50 times (and I think that is being generous).
After that, PEOPLE SHOULD BE LEARNING FROM THEIR MISTAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Perhaps Statesman needs to post with some of the discipline that is being handed out...that ought to keep people happy.
Anyways, as for the changes, its yet another case of 'You were using this power to have fun? What the hell? Better stop having fun your way and start having fun our way!!!!'
And how many times can we see that before we get tired of it...well again, the first 50 or so was probably enough.
*sighs*
Ouch. That's.... not a great change. It was a pretty decent power before, situational but handy. Now... eh. I won't be taking it, anyways.
But I guess if it had to happen, it had to happen. No better options, though? If it was doing perma-knockdown, could you maybe grant enemies a few seconds of knockdown immunity instead of switching it to knockback? That'd at least make it reasonable for melee heroes/villains to use.
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Don't team regularly with anyone else who has it.
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You must be forgetting about that lovable AR/Dev blaster that tags along with your tank on occasion.
I've got it, used it, and was already debating dropping it before this change. It has a very small AoE and burns End like no tomorrow even with a couple of SO End Redux. I use it as the panic button when fighting a single mob that is getting the best of me. (Before anyone says this is a no risk maneuver, it is the only way I can take out the lethal resistant orange lts that spawn in many of my heroic missions, and they can still get off attacks at me, it just cuts down the frequency.) It doesn't always hit and it seriously reduces my damage output because I don't have the End to keep WW running and my standard attack chain. The only time I toggle-drop from running out of End is when WW is running. Stamina only helps so much when you have 3 toggles you always keep on and Hasten.
This change means I will definitely drop the power as soon as I can pick up a respec. The knockback means that to have a chance to keep a mob in the WW, I have to run sprint, draining even more End. I'm waiting to see what else the devs can change that will furthur reduce the survivability of my AR/Dev. The KB change already hit his primary damage mitigation, and now this greatly reduces the effectiveness of his panic button.
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Why? There was a PVE exploit involved with it, and this fix takes care of 90% of the issue.
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That's a rather interesting statement. Can't really think of anything that you could use it for to be so effective as to grant the label of "Exploit". Its particularly hard on the endurance and a bit chaotic to use (which is why its fun.) Considering the low popularity of the power, that must have been one heck of an exploit. Aw well, I guess I will have to see this change works out.
It's a mildly annoying change, but I'm more distressed by the animation change it went through. Now, instead of holding his arms straight out to the side, my character drops them limply to his side while spinning. And me without a respec to get out of it.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Well, another reason we need a free respec with #7. Since the devs never hand out free repecs between issues, all the small changes between issues have to be considered as well. And the cumulative changes between #6 and #7 are adding up.
Give us a free respec and an End reduction on Whirlwind, and I'd be happy.
I get the impression that changes go on the Devs internal build for a couple of months, then get merged into the test build, which is then copied over as the running build. I suspect the lack of patch notes comes in because a lot of these changes were fairly minor things that they did two months ago and forgot about. When they finally make it live players go "[censored]!" and the devs say to themselves "oh, looks like that change made it live".
I wonder if the thought process behind which patches get merged to test is a little haphazard? Obviously some things (ED, Defense changes, Smoke Grenade fix, etc...) stay on the developers build longer than others (Prestige duping bug), and it could easily be difficult to keep track of which features made it to which build. Of course better revision control would solve that problem, but it can be really hard to change revision control systems after you start using one.