I think the main difference would be that they are TANKS!
Eating damage is their forte. Other ATs just pretend to suck it up, so of course they are at a disadvantage when compared to the AT designed for it.
"Theres a saying that perfectly describes reading a majority of your posts, "Like being bukkaked with stupid."" -Demonata on JMan
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I think the main difference would be that they are TANKS!
Eating damage is their forte. Other ATs just pretend to suck it up, so of course they are at a disadvantage when compared to the AT designed for it.
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I think that reasoning justifies why the powers in the Tanker version of invul have higher base values than Scrapper/Brute invul, but how does it explain why Scrappers and Brutes are disproportionately penalized by the def debuff in UY?
Foo, I've been following most of the arguments in the Tanker and general forums, and IMO none of them have provided an understandable justification for either the def debuff in general or specifically why the S/B debuff is the same value as it is for Tankers.
Statesman says that it is there 'for balance'. What then, *is* it "balancing" that hasn't already been slashed to a level well below what it was when the debuff was first put in place? Even mez protection levels have been reduced recently!
And if the fact that the debuff is the same level for scraps and brutes as it is for tanks is, in fact, intentional and not an oversight, that suggests to me that it is 'balancing' something that all three ATs receive equally. But I'm damned if I know what it could be, except perhaps Dull Pain.
Bottom line, if the devs are going to adhere to the balancing argument, I'd like to know what extraordinary benefit of the Invul powerset it is 'balancing', and why it is applied equally to all three ATs when very few of the Invul powers have equal values for all three ATs.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Can we get some commentary here?
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From a developer? Unlikely. The whole concept at this point is stupid, but they'll never back down. Jerks.
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Can we get some commentary here?
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From a developer? Unlikely. The whole concept at this point is stupid, but they'll never back down. Jerks.
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Jonyu, like Castle, tends to be responsive to player concerns and questions, even when he doesn't agree.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Yes, he's quite good, though not as available as Castle tends to be.
I challenge Jonyu to prove me wrong!
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Yes, he's quite good, though not as available as Castle tends to be.
I challenge Jonyu to prove me wrong!
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Isn't calling them out against forum rules? Does that not apply to AT representatives? Has it ever really worked before? If the answer is what I expect (keeping it IMbalanced) will that settle anything and keep us from griping about it?
How it is balanced
Tanks defense
Brutes scrappers offense.
Tanker vs Brute
Brute has fury... this makes a big difference in dmg out put.
Thus a brute can kill an opponet faster then a tank, so in a very real way they have a defense through offense ... a dead mob cannot do dmg.
In a mob of 10 my brute will kill 3 mobs when tank kills 2.
I will kill 8 mobs due to fury by the time a tank can kill 5.
This means a tank is taking a reduced dmg from 3 mobs where I am taking 0 dmg thus 100% resist becuase mobs are dead.
Apply this to stalkers too.
Now to balance tanks need better defense.
So they get that.
I am just glad we get the same -debuff. I could very well see giving tanks a -2.5% and us a -5% or even -5% tank and -7.5% brute / scapper.
How hard is it to understand that a dead mob = 100% resist or defense for that mob. And that a scapper/brute will kill mobs faster thus improve defense.
So there you go justification.
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First, a little background info:Read this, please.
Now let's think for a minute...
A Tanker gets Unyielding at level 8 and is granted:
- 5% S/L RES
- 10% F/C/En/Neg/Tox RES
- mez protection
- 5% DEF debuff
A Brute/Scrapper gets Unyielding at level 16, and is granted:
- 3.75% S/L RES
- 7.5% F/C/En/Neg/Tox RES
- mez protection
- 5% DEF debuff
How is this balanced or fair? If, in fact, the DEF debuff is "balanced" (which I find ridiculous already) shouldn't it also scale with the benefits of the power?
As it stands now, Brutes/Scrappers wait 8 more levels to get a power that's less effective, and actually causes more damage than it protects from (according to the 1%DEF=2%RES balance metric), in exchange for decent mez protection.
(I say decent here, because it is inferior to Tanker, and possibly Kheldian, mez protection.)
Can we get some commentary here?
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I can see it now... Statesmen reads your logical and well writen post, the wheels start turing... and, he comes up with it.... lets incress the tankers debuff to 7.5%, that'll make things more balanced... yeah, i can see it now... 
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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How it is balanced
Tanks defense
Brutes scrappers offense.
Tanker vs Brute
Brute has fury... this makes a big difference in dmg out put.
Thus a brute can kill an opponet faster then a tank, so in a very real way they have a defense through offense ... a dead mob cannot do dmg.
In a mob of 10 my brute will kill 3 mobs when tank kills 2.
I will kill 8 mobs due to fury by the time a tank can kill 5.
This means a tank is taking a reduced dmg from 3 mobs where I am taking 0 dmg thus 100% resist becuase mobs are dead.
Apply this to stalkers too.
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Isn't *that* particular balancing equation (defense vs damage) already done by the fact that Brutes and Scrappers get 75% of Tankers Def & Res?
Are you saying that the devs are *intentionally* trying to further reduce S/B defenses by giving them a proportionally higher def debuff in UY? A "you guys are so good we're going to kick you again!" prize?
LOL. I guess it's *possible*, though the reasoning strikes me as a bit...convoluted. Wouldn't a simpler solution be to just up Tanker damage or reduce the % of res and def that scraps and brutes get to say, 70%?
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Bottom line, if the devs are going to adhere to the balancing argument, I'd like to know what extraordinary benefit of the Invul powerset it is 'balancing', and why it is applied equally to all three ATs when very few of the Invul powers have equal values for all three ATs.
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Ok here goes inv. offers way more smashing lethal dmg then any other set.
Run hero stats some time I would say it it atleast a 70% smash/lethal to 30% elemental from pve on aveage.
So you are resisting the dmg that you are getting hit with more often better then other defenses.
Next INV. has a auto defense for each attack (except psi) so when toggles get droped inv. has advantage over other sets.
Next inv. is immune to knock back with unyeilding... other sets only have resists.
I could go on ....
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I can see it now... Statesmen reads your logical and well writen post, the wheels start turing... and, he comes up with it.... lets incress the tankers debuff to 7.5%, that'll make things more balanced... yeah, i can see it now...
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Believe it or not, on test it was originally 12.5%! And I think that was for both tanks and scrappers. 
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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How it is balanced
Tanks defense
Brutes scrappers offense.
Tanker vs Brute
Brute has fury... this makes a big difference in dmg out put.
Thus a brute can kill an opponet faster then a tank, so in a very real way they have a defense through offense ... a dead mob cannot do dmg.
In a mob of 10 my brute will kill 3 mobs when tank kills 2.
I will kill 8 mobs due to fury by the time a tank can kill 5.
This means a tank is taking a reduced dmg from 3 mobs where I am taking 0 dmg thus 100% resist becuase mobs are dead.
Apply this to stalkers too.
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Isn't *that* particular balancing equation (defense vs damage) already done by the fact that Brutes and Scrappers get 75% of Tankers Def & Res?
Are you saying that the devs are *intentionally* trying to further reduce S/B defenses by giving them a proportionally higher def debuff in UY? A "you guys are so good we're going to kick you again!" prize?
LOL. I guess it's *possible*, though the reasoning strikes me as a bit...convoluted. Wouldn't a simpler solution be to just up Tanker damage or reduce the % of res and def that scraps and brutes get to say, 70%?
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No because the point is not to make everyone the same... but balanced in different.
A tank should not = a brute should not = a scrapper
A tank has best defense worst dmg
Brute avg defense avg dmg
scrapper wost defense (with hp) highest dmg
See this is balanced, and created diversity.
Look at balance like a 4 and 8 balance to a 6
not that it has to be two 6's to = 6
Also if we get 75% of there defense
this would mean we would get 75% of their defense and resist.
Just think of it as our defense is 75% as effective.
If it were balanced to the point
-5% for tanks
and - 6.25 % for scrappers and brutes.
Becuase -6.5 is 75% as effective as - 5 on a negative scale.
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I can see it now... Statesmen reads your logical and well writen post, the wheels start turing... and, he comes up with it.... lets incress the tankers debuff to 7.5%, that'll make things more balanced... yeah, i can see it now...
[/ QUOTE ]
Believe it or not, on test it was originally 12.5%! And I think that was for both tanks and scrappers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I remember.... *shutters*
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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Ok here goes inv. offers way more smashing lethal dmg then any other set.
Run hero stats some time I would say it it atleast a 70% smash/lethal to 30% elemental from pve on aveage.
So you are resisting the dmg that you are getting hit with more often better then other defenses.
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Because it has relatively low levels of resistance to non S/L damage, and none to Psi, the total amount of damage mitigation that Invul offers is pretty much on par with the other sets. And in I7 the balance may skew toward the more Defense based sets since the scaling issue is going to be addressed.
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Next INV. has a auto defense for each attack (except psi) so when toggles get droped inv. has advantage over other sets.
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You mean for each damage type? Unless I'm misremembering, all the Melee sets that rely on def or res (Regen is a notable exception) offer either def or res passives against most damage types.
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Next inv. is immune to knock back with unyeilding... other sets only have resists.
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In practical terms, that's a very minor advantage. I can't recall ever having been knocked back through Practiced Brawler, for instance.
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I could go on ....
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If you're going to persuade me that Invul currently has significant advantages over the other Melee defense sets, you're going to have to.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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How it is balanced
Tanks defense
Brutes scrappers offense.
Tanker vs Brute
Brute has fury... this makes a big difference in dmg out put.
Thus a brute can kill an opponet faster then a tank, so in a very real way they have a defense through offense ... a dead mob cannot do dmg.
In a mob of 10 my brute will kill 3 mobs when tank kills 2.
I will kill 8 mobs due to fury by the time a tank can kill 5.
This means a tank is taking a reduced dmg from 3 mobs where I am taking 0 dmg thus 100% resist becuase mobs are dead.
Apply this to stalkers too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't *that* particular balancing equation (defense vs damage) already done by the fact that Brutes and Scrappers get 75% of Tankers Def & Res?
Are you saying that the devs are *intentionally* trying to further reduce S/B defenses by giving them a proportionally higher def debuff in UY? A "you guys are so good we're going to kick you again!" prize?
LOL. I guess it's *possible*, though the reasoning strikes me as a bit...convoluted. Wouldn't a simpler solution be to just up Tanker damage or reduce the % of res and def that scraps and brutes get to say, 70%?
[/ QUOTE ]
No because the point is not to make everyone the same... but balanced in different.
A tank should not = a brute should not = a scrapper
A tank has best defense worst dmg
Brute avg defense avg dmg
scrapper wost defense (with hp) highest dmg
See this is balanced, and created diversity.
Look at balance like a 4 and 8 balance to a 6
not that it has to be two 6's to = 6
Also if we get 75% of there defense
this would mean we would get 75% of their defense and resist.
Just think of it as our defense is 75% as effective.
If it were balanced to the point
-5% for tanks
and - 6.25 % for scrappers and brutes.
Becuase -6.5 is 75% as effective as - 5 on a negative scale.
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You can't just point to arbitrary deficiencies or strengths and indicate they're balance factors.
For example: "Brute has fury... this makes a big difference in dmg out put."
Brutes' Fury is evenly applied across all defensive sets. You don't get DEF debuff for having Fury. They're not connected. Fury is balanced against Scrapper and Tank damage output and that's it, otherwise /Dark, /EA, /Fire and /Stone would need similar balancing factors.
Fury lets you kill faster, so that damage mitigation is represented in the lower HP, as it is for Scrappers.
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Also if we get 75% of there defense
this would mean we would get 75% of their defense and resist.
Just think of it as our defense is 75% as effective.
If it were balanced to the point
-5% for tanks
and - 6.25 % for scrappers and brutes.
Becuase -6.5 is 75% as effective as - 5 on a negative scale.
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Exactly my point. Either Tankers should have a higher debuff (which would be just as absurd, considering it was added at a time when Tankers had 20% base RES from Unyielding), or Scrappers/Brutes should have a lower debuff.
Or, more sensibly, the whole debuff thing should just be stricken from the power.
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Believe it or not, on test it was originally 12.5%! And I think that was for both tanks and scrappers.
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I remember.... *shutters*
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Yeah, when that change was on Test, I tried to make a bind that would toggle UY on and then immediately release me to the hospital, but the timing never quite worked... I had to hit the button twice in a row. Would have been a great substitute for teleport though...
</sarcasm>
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How it is balanced
Tanks defense
Brutes scrappers offense.
Tanker vs Brute
Brute has fury... this makes a big difference in dmg out put.
Thus a brute can kill an opponet faster then a tank, so in a very real way they have a defense through offense ... a dead mob cannot do dmg.
In a mob of 10 my brute will kill 3 mobs when tank kills 2.
I will kill 8 mobs due to fury by the time a tank can kill 5.
This means a tank is taking a reduced dmg from 3 mobs where I am taking 0 dmg thus 100% resist becuase mobs are dead.
Apply this to stalkers too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't *that* particular balancing equation (defense vs damage) already done by the fact that Brutes and Scrappers get 75% of Tankers Def & Res?
Are you saying that the devs are *intentionally* trying to further reduce S/B defenses by giving them a proportionally higher def debuff in UY? A "you guys are so good we're going to kick you again!" prize?
LOL. I guess it's *possible*, though the reasoning strikes me as a bit...convoluted. Wouldn't a simpler solution be to just up Tanker damage or reduce the % of res and def that scraps and brutes get to say, 70%?
[/ QUOTE ]
Becuase -6.5 is 75% as effective as - 5 on a negative scale.
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No, that's not how that works. The 75% ALREADY balances the powersets effectiveness.
The debuff is a penalty based upon offsetting the +Res that unyeilding provides. Since Unyeilding is 75% as effective as the Tanker version, it offers 75% of the resistance, which means it SHOULD only have 75% of the debuff, which is NOT 6.5, it's 3.75.
It only has 75% of the resistance to offset, so it only needs 75% of the debuff, not 25% more, which is what you have.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
The entire powerset either needs a makeover or a name change because the current name is a big fat lie. People die really bad with this powerset. It is no longer what it was. Invincebility is just a taunt aura that gets you killed. The debuff should never have been there from the start. It sure as hell does not make sense now because the power does more harm than good at early levels. It is just too harsh. Judging from the way things work I believe the devs out of touch with the game. Especially now when the reasons for some of the decisions made in the past do not exist or exist in a very small way. Please remove the debuff we have the only powerset that has an inherrent weakness to psi and get no compensation for this.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
A Tankers job is do soak up damage so they get a bonus to their resistances. Scrappers and Brutes make up for this by dealing more damage.
How can you complain that Brutes have to wait 8 more levels to get an inferior version of Unyielding when they're getting powers like Knockout Blow at level 8 compared to a Tanker at level 20?
Powers are balanced by the grand scheme of the archetype, not via individual powers so it's not fair to compare power for power versus the various archetypes. Brutes are more than fine as they are.
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A Tankers job is do soak up damage so they get a bonus to their resistances. Scrappers and Brutes make up for this by dealing more damage.
How can you complain that Brutes have to wait 8 more levels to get an inferior version of Unyielding when they're getting powers like Knockout Blow at level 8 compared to a Tanker at level 20?
Powers are balanced by the grand scheme of the archetype, not via individual powers so it's not fair to compare power for power versus the various archetypes. Brutes are more than fine as they are.
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OK, but why the debuff in the first place? Since it works out to a de facto debuff to SM, LE why not just take the debuff and resists off of Unyielding?
And as for balancing powers in the grand scheme of the AT, how can that be? Except for the first power in a secondary, you can't be sure of what combination of powers that a person will pick. Powers need to be balanced on BOTH the individual power level and the AT level. Another way to say it is that even if the MACRO balancing of Invul is ok, the MICRO level is off.
If the debuff is balanced in the grand scheme, and I can't see how that could be the case, it still makes Unyielding a faustian bargain.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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How can you complain that Brutes have to wait 8 more levels to get an inferior version of Unyielding when they're getting powers like Knockout Blow at level 8 compared to a Tanker at level 20?
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Because it's a double penalty. No one is complaining about Scrapper/Brute Unyielding having lower resists. What people are complaining about is the fact that the debuff isn't in proportion to the reduced resists. I can't speak for everyone, but I would ask why the debuff isn't 3.75% since the resists are 75% of the Tanker numbers.
And if this is balanced, how is it balanced? Is it balanced because we can still do missions on Heroic? Or is there some formula that tells you this is balanced? If so, please tell us. The forum population here will understand it.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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A Tankers job is do soak up damage so they get a bonus to their resistances. Scrappers and Brutes make up for this by dealing more damage.
How can you complain that Brutes have to wait 8 more levels to get an inferior version of Unyielding when they're getting powers like Knockout Blow at level 8 compared to a Tanker at level 20?
Powers are balanced by the grand scheme of the archetype, not via individual powers so it's not fair to compare power for power versus the various archetypes. Brutes are more than fine as they are.
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So in the "grand scheme of the archetype", making you wait 8 more levels for your status resist power that comparatively hangs a WORSE boat anchor of -DEF around your neck than the tank version does? Because you can get Knockout Blow at 8, this basket of insanity jives? That the Tank version of Unyielding's DEF debuff is equivalent to the Brute version of the DEF debuff because they get a bonus to resists?
Because of Knockout Blow.
Why don't you just come out and SAY, "Maltese Knight, we WANT you to suck. But you won't be SUCKING, you'll be BALANCED."
Ohhhhhh... Balanced. Gotcha. Like the -12.5% debuff compiled with nerfed resists in I5 were balanced. Ludicrous.
Maybe I'm missing something here... but isn't 5% pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things?
Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball
Having played my /Inv Brute a lot lately, I have to agree that this power is messed. Turning it on makes me take more damage instead of [/i]less[/i] damage. Smashing, fire, energy, doesn't matter... that -5% def across the board means minions are whacking me a lot more often. Not to mention that side effects like Mu -end and burst -def also hit more often.
Unyielding is supposedly better than Rooted (because you can move normally) and Fire/DA mez protection (because of knockdown protection). Does that justify a status protection toggle that makes you die faster instead of slower, though? 
The difference between the current -5% def and a tweaked -2.5% def for Brutes and Scrappers doesn't look like a lot on paper, but the perceived improvement would be great. I wouldn't feel like Unyielding is getting me killed, at least.
First, a little background info:Read this, please.
Now let's think for a minute...
A Tanker gets Unyielding at level 8 and is granted:
- 5% S/L RES
- 10% F/C/En/Neg/Tox RES
- mez protection
- 5% DEF debuff
A Brute/Scrapper gets Unyielding at level 16, and is granted:
- 3.75% S/L RES
- 7.5% F/C/En/Neg/Tox RES
- mez protection
- 5% DEF debuff
How is this balanced or fair? If, in fact, the DEF debuff is "balanced" (which I find ridiculous already) shouldn't it also scale with the benefits of the power?
As it stands now, Brutes/Scrappers wait 8 more levels to get a power that's less effective, and actually causes more damage than it protects from (according to the 1%DEF=2%RES balance metric), in exchange for decent mez protection.
(I say decent here, because it is inferior to Tanker, and possibly Kheldian, mez protection.)
Can we get some commentary here?