to thread in general:
I, like some of you, are for the complete removal of this out-dated little fix. saying that happens, it will open the door to other "negatives" being balanced.
lets go right to the big dog: Granite Armor. GA is ... well, the best damn survival power in the game. no other single power comes even remotely close, BUT!! it has the most severe negatives of any power as well. based upon some recognition of the devs to the imbalance of UY's debuff, one could usher in a scaling of the damage debuff, run speed debuff, recharge debuff in GA. One could even go so far as demand scaled end costs and activation times for powers less effective than "sister powers".
before you begin to pour gas on me... let me say that i'm not advocating... "much" of this type of balancing. i'm just pointing out a line of thought that may come from it. but, before i wipe clean that slate, i would like to point out that something similar was done for em when given to stalkers. again, i'm not saying that it was unfair/what-not, just that it was done. the self damage from ET was based on bi but is now "effectively" a percentage of hps. one could argue that it has become a punishment to tankers, just for having more hps to begin with (i actually did this in pms to THE MAN, but he took the time to show me the need for such an adjustment) i have now lost my train of thought... but, if i didn't make a point, i had one...once.
a different point: UY is not the only power with a negative component/debuff. oh, wait... thats the same point.
uh, HEY!! Look at Granite while you're at it... and rooted!!
Yes! I'm NORMAL! What are you looking at freak!?
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a different point: UY is not the only power with a negative component/debuff. oh, wait... thats the same point.
uh, HEY!! Look at Granite while you're at it... and rooted!!
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The thing is, Granite trades damage for survivability, it's a fair trade. Unyeilding doesn't do that.
Rooted is just inconvenient, not a liability to the user.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
I think the concerns regarding Granite are worth mention, for sure, I just don't think that there's as direct a method to illustrate the impact there.
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Jonyu wrote:
A Tankers job is do soak up damage so they get a bonus to their resistances. Scrappers and Brutes make up for this by dealing more damage.
How can you complain that Brutes have to wait 8 more levels to get an inferior version of Unyielding when they're getting powers like Knockout Blow at level 8 compared to a Tanker at level 20?
Powers are balanced by the grand scheme of the archetype, not via individual powers so it's not fair to compare power for power versus the various archetypes. Brutes are more than fine as they are.
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I think you missed a very important point.
Devs say 1% DEF = 2% RES.
That means that the -5% DEF of this ability results in a net NEGATIVE to resistance.
If this doesn't prove once and for all that it is time for the -5% DEF to go, then I don't know what will.
By the way, I do not have a SINGLE inv/ or /inv character. I just look at this objectively and boggle at how absurd it is.
Come ON, Devs, even Cambios agrees this doesn't make sense! He complained that daily maintenance was happening too often, and it's not even happening *daily*! 
(No real offense intended, Cambios.)
hmmmmn then if that is so y is it a well built brute cannot kill a well built tanker??? or it just becomes a stalemate after like 20 mins of trying to pound each other into dust 
a brutes offence rarely overcomes a tanks defence!! at least not 1vs1 n both r experienced pvp players.
so in a funny kind of way tankers n brutes r equal... but then u get the blappers 
lol so y is it it corrs n blappers r not just as equal as tankers n brutes 1vs1 or doms n trollers etc etc
the main point here being if all things were equal....then the fight comes down to tactics on both players parts n wat they do and not become so 1 sided... i enjoy playing as a brute on the villain side 
pve and pvp but i dont mind heroes being so overpowered if villains are able to at least compete to some sort of degree!!! this is afterall a game based round heroes vs villains and not heroes vs heroes cuz atm thats the only way pvp is going sure if u get lucky or team n gank a hero u mite get a kill or if a stalker until stalkers powers get nerfed.. so y not nerf blasters insane burst damage?? it would at least somewat lvl the playing field a bit..
i just wanna compete decently against heroes both on 1vs1 and teams, not b overpowered killed in less than 10 seconds
cuz i as a villain and many other villains alike will soon stop pvping and wont it b a lonely place and no fun where heroes will have nothing to compete against n play in pvp..i would find that oh so boring
llol yah u go foo *bows down to foo* bring the SMASH
Post deleted by NinjaMonkey
Wow.
Way to necropost guys. You successfully drug a post up from all the way back in January.
Good work!
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Wow.
Way to necropost guys. You successfully drug a post up from all the way back in January.
Good work!
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Dang. I didn't notice that - I figured I just missed it. My bad, sorry. Let me delete my post.
Incredible necropost, though we still don't have a real response as to why the debuff doesn't scale the same way the buff does on Unyielding.
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Incredible necropost, though we still don't have a real response as to why the debuff doesn't scale the same way the buff does on Unyielding.
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The silence is deafening. Almost 3 months since this thread was first posted & we still don't have a Dev response on this issue. Nice.
Let's lay this out again.
1 - The DEF Debuff is unjustifiable on Tankers. Unyielding is the powerset's mez protection toggle. Using it shouldn't make the character more vulnerable - the power is supposed to make them less vulnerable. If the justification for the Debuff is that Unyielding also provides RES, then remove the RES from the power & redistribute it to the RES powers in the set. If the justification is that the powerset overall generates too much DEF (& thus needs the 5% Debuff to be balanced) then reduce the DEF powers in the set by 5%. (Since Tough Hide only supplies 5% DEF total itself, this means yet another nerf to Invincibility, since it is the only other +DEF power in the set).
2 - Even if the 5% DEF Debuff is justified for Tankers, making Scrappers & Brutes carry the full penalty when they only get 75% of the power's benefits is absurd. At most Scrappers & Brutes should have a 3.75% DEF Debuff to be belanced with Inv/ Tankers.
3 - With the I7 DEF changes on the horizon, the burden imposed by the DEF Debuff is now increasing, since the Debuff will scale up with enemy level & classification. Anyone using Unyielding who is fighting anything higher than a white con will be adversely affected by the change. Since this is anticipatible, an adjustment should be in the works now, & yet we have no indication that anything is planned.
4 - It is just embarrassing that the Devs haven't addressed this issue yet.
Liberty
Mister Mass - 50 Inv/SS/NRG Mut Tank [1236]
Doc Willpower - 50 Grav/FF/Psi Mag Controller
Baron Wonder - 50 SS/Elec/Mu Mag Brute
Sound Bight - 50 Son/Son/Mu Tech Corrupter
The devs dont care about tanks and what little opinion they do have they will not be swayed from. They made the tank and realised it was capable of more survivablity then they wanted(IE we must require other support to do what we do),while the other support classes dont require tanks and can infact make current tanks obsolete in most situations.
We've pointed out problem after problem with thier design logic on tanks/scrappers and recieved no word back for months. To me this indicates they feel the defense changes will make things "feel" right to them and that the players will simmer down once they get rolled out. Of course they wont even post something along the lines of "wait and see how issue 7 improves things before we will look at it again", cant even post something that simple, its sad. Not trying to be rude but thats the truth of it.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
Can I ask an honest question? If scrapper and brute powers are supposed to be at 75% of a tanker's, then should this also affect the end cost, recharge, activation time, etc?
It seems that only the "good" stuff gets cut, but the bad stays the same. Brute granite has the same -dmg, -recharge as tanker granite, for a lower benefit. Brute rooted isn't less slow that tanker rooted.
Frankly, I think the devs thought allowing you to move was soooooooooo good that it required a debuff as a tradeoff. I also think that things like mutually exclusive armors are/were/won't be treated in the same vein as stackable armors.
They should just get rid of the debuff and move on already...
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I'm with the quick and dirty "halve the defense debuff from unyielding the way they halved every pool power defense buff" crowd, if such a crowd exists.
That and buffing the resist energy/elements passives would quell the complaints about the set imho.
When Invul's resists and defense were nerfed, I find it odd that the defense debuff in Unyielding wasn't nerfed as well. Seems a bit out of line considering the overall negative adjustments to all the powers.
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I agree with Arc.
At first glance looking at the numbers, Invulnerability seems to get xtra protection against S/L and penalties on all other resists compared to other sets, but some of the extra penalties such as the -5% Def Debuff in Unyeilding still exist from the time when Invulnerability was the "best" defense set and penalties were introduced.
Anyways, reduce the Debuff to 3.75% so that the net mitagation as one called it is indeed 75% less effective than tankers. With the -5% Def Debuff as stands current the "net mitagation" is less than 75% for Scrappers and Brutes and actually increases damage taken for those ATs.
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