I love the people saying I am wrong... makes me laugh.
I will retire there is no point into explaining statistics to a bunch people who donot have the educational foundation to grasp the concepts.
I just thank god you all do not work in the socialogy/psychology/medical or other fields that make use of statistics and especially when dealing with negative numbers.
Real world examples are "side-effects" in which this math is used. Examples loss of fuction or motor skills when using a medication.
The goal is 0 "side-effects"
Treatment A has a patent at -5% function (loses 5%)
Treatment B has a patent at -3.75% function.
But for you, you would say treatment B is 75% less effective then treatment A. This makes A more effective for you.
So you would bascally be telling people that having a 5% loss of fuction is better then having a 3.75% loss of fuction.
The fact is - 6.25% is 75% less effective then -5% when the goal is reaching 0 or no disfunction (no defense debuff)
And to note:
I did not throw topic off base. I answered the questions to explain why both sets have -5% and that this even helps brutes more then hurts because a 25% reduction in effenciancy (75% as effective) in defense would be -6.25% from a base of -5%.
It is infact the people who have replied that this is not right that have thrown off the argument. By using flawed math to skew a point.
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I will retire there is no point into explaining statistics to a bunch people who donot have the educational foundation to grasp the concepts.
[/ QUOTE ]good, since you can't understand that the brutes and scrappers already pay for the 75% effectiveness rule by having lower base values and that the debuff actually makes them less than 75% effective, there's no point in even talking to you.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Go away, troll.
You're sucking the entire point right out of this conversation, and that's the -5% debuff in Unyielding, not 'let monkeyboy put on his magic hat of 'm4+hl33+z0rz' so you can wave your hand above the ignorant masses'.
Point IS, if you'd pull your head out of your amazing power over statistics-hole, is that given the Brute/Scrapper version of the stats are 75% of Tank versions, the debuff should be 75% of the tank version as well so it is proportional to the powers across the set. It's the one and only time I'm gonna say it.
Now go away, troll. Myself and many others have been part of wonderful dicussions and even disagreements regarding statistics over in tankerville, but rarely does it decline into the uppity cesspool you've provided to the Brute crowd. Given the request, given the purpose of the majority of this thread, regardless of semantics, regardless of how you translate it on the calculator under your bridge, regardless of what you may think...
The stat, 75% of -5%, is -3.75%. Proportion to the remainder of the set. Less resists and defense, therefore less of a penalty because of them.
Not a complicated concept, troll. Thanks for turning a potential focus point to the Developers in support of removing this atrocity into a meaningless, septic argument about how you've taken a statistics class and therefore you're now T3H M4TH N1NJA.
Go away, troll.
He really, really, really won't stop as long as you keep replying to him. Heck, I'm going to avoid using numbers in this thread from this point on.
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T3H M4TH N1NJA
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i call dibs on this name for Triumph. if this isn't there when i get home from work, so help me gawd...
/shakes fist menacingly
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
1+1=2
There, let the math guy tear that apart!
Save the drama for yo' mama.
In another thread, hopefully.
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He really, really, really won't stop as long as you keep replying to him. Heck, I'm going to avoid using numbers in this thread from this point on.
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*nod*. I've stayed out of it since last night for this reason - as long as the general readership understands the fact that he's wrong, my work here is done.
And, AG, since you're STILL set on talking about real life information which you have no idea about, let me give you some basis:
"Educational foundation"? Check. Graduated college in '02.
"Job working with numbers, including negative ones"? Check. The location on the left should give you a clue.
Still think you're wrong? BIG ol' check.
Kam
You are taking just one part of the power and saying that it must give a bigger penalty against the rest of the power, so that the power is less effective.
This is very faulty logic.
If the rest of the power (resistance and mezz protection) is 75% of tanker, increasing the debuff actually increases it twice.
Technically, just leaving it is "effectively" increasing the debuff by 25% in comparison to the rest of the powers.
Hmmm....
Now that's an odd thought. Is it a fair increase?
Let's take a 15% Resistance for tankers. It has a 5% accuracy debuff (effectively a 5% increase in defense).
The scrapper power has 11.25% resistance (75%) and the same 5% debuff (effectively subtracting 10% resistance.)
The scrapper actually has only *25%* of the protection (resistance/defense) of the tanker set.
That is very much not fair. A 3.75% debuff against 11.25% does balance well. {corrected logic there}
That's a 3.75% "net mitigation" which *is* 75% of a tankers "net mitigation" effect.
Brutes and scrapper *need* to have this scaled correctly, otherwise they are getting heavily dinged for their mitigation.
Man, that 5% really hammers the resistance values of that power. It really is too high.
Still here, even after all this time!
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I say we give _castle_ an overload of pms on this subject he would respond to our cries for help hopefully.
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though castle is the man. such suggestions are more harmful that good. i know you say this in jest but some people are normal and might not understand. lets not punish a man for being helpful to us.
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Believe me the last thing I want if is for _castle_ a.k.a. God's Gift to the melee class arch-types to be punished. It is just that he and CuppaJo are the most responsive of the rednames and they try to understand us. Had we had him as a rep when we went thru all of this during issue 3 we might not have even had this debuff issue to begin with. I say we clone _castle_ and cuppajo that way we dont have to share them with the other arch-types?? All in favor of _castle_ and cuppajo clones say /signed. 
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Brutes are more than fine as they are.
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Am i the only one that just had shivers up his spine?
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Nope. With all the whining over EM I expect to be nerfed. Who the heck knows what else they have up their sleeves though.
[/ QUOTE ]Reminds me of the "Don't worry regens, only a minor tweak..." comment. 
Infinity: 50
InfernalMachine F/F Tank
Shaugraun MA/Reg
Burning Force Fire/kin
Rancor DM/EA Brute
Triumph:
Phanatique Lvl:30 BS/Regen Scrapper
Mu Machine Lvl 44 SS/ElA Brute
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Maybe I'm missing something here... but isn't 5% pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things?
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yes, it is . . . but the pickings are currently slim for the DOOOOOOOOOM Patrol.
Anarchic, maybe if we were talking real world mathematics here, you would be right. But this isn't real world math. In CoH, a 6.5% debuff is MORE than a 5% debuff. Don't let the fact that it's technically negative defense throw you off here.
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Maybe I'm missing something here... but isn't 5% pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things?
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yes, it is . . . but the pickings are currently slim for the DOOOOOOOOOM Patrol.
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This is not the doom patrol. This is the "hey, this doesn't make sense, please explain" patrol.
Also, if 5% DEF were really so trivial, why did the Devs cut Hover, Combat Jumping, and a slew of other powers that offered such "trivial" DEF in their rebalance as well?
Are the Devs the doom patrol as well?
Feel free to mischaracterise the intents and questions of others if it helps your world view, though.
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A decimal point screwed Michael Bolton's calculations on his bank software so that his virus stole thousands of dollars.
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Michael... Bolton?
...
Is he related to that singer guy?
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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Maybe I'm missing something here... but isn't 5% pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things?
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yes, it is . . . but the pickings are currently slim for the DOOOOOOOOOM Patrol.
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Actually, it's not. It's 5% more damage taken over time. It completely obviates the non-S/L resistances in Unyielding, and eclipes the S/L resistances. It's giving a serious penalty to survivability in the power that's our Mez protection, when no other mez protection power has it.
The power has been out of line for quite a while, but we've had more important things to complain about. Which are now being addressed. So now's the time to bring it to their attention. Invuln needed a good nerfing back in the day, but that day is gone and fragments of the nerf remain.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
Can we all agree that setting the defense debuff for Unyeilding to 0 on all ATs using this power would the be the great equalizer? It certainly does not favor one AT over the other.
I think that this -5% defense should just be removed. Invul has enough pitfalls as it is. Throwing Invul this tiny scrap of an improvement across ATs wouldn't be game breaking and would provide a much needed boost to keep in line with other like powers.
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A decimal point screwed Michael Bolton's calculations on his bank software so that his virus stole thousands of dollars.
[/ QUOTE ]
Michael... Bolton?
...
Is he related to that singer guy?
[/ QUOTE ]
Have you seen Office Space? 
You just quoted it.
For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings, "When a Man Loves a Woman".
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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Maybe I'm missing something here... but isn't 5% pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things?
[/ QUOTE ]
yes, it is . . . but the pickings are currently slim for the DOOOOOOOOOM Patrol.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not the doom patrol. This is the "hey, this doesn't make sense, please explain" patrol.
Also, if 5% DEF were really so trivial, why did the Devs cut Hover, Combat Jumping, and a slew of other powers that offered such "trivial" DEF in their rebalance as well?
Are the Devs the doom patrol as well?
Feel free to mischaracterise the intents and questions of others if it helps your world view, though.
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Im onboard with you on this one as usual Foo.
Ignore the scampering of the e-tard/dev-lawyers who insist that anyone who challenges the logic of development is a troll/doomsayer/nerfherder/fundamentally wrong/eats babies yadda-yadda.
It is your right to do so as often as you please.
I started a thread about this very same topic not too long ago - it was met with the same garbage from the dev-lawyers and crickets from development.
There is no sound reasoning or logic provided by development as to why this power should'nt be updated post I5/I6.
It certianly *NEEDS* to be updated - the flaw with this power has been brought up so many times that I can only assume that the devs are intentionally ignoring the topic or simply cannot justify its current implementation.
The -def is unintuitive, outdated and makes the player even more susceptable to being hit in the romper-room that is CoX pvp by the rampant and overpowered status-effect/stat-jacking that its supposed to be providing protection from in the 1st place.
Update this power or provide solid reasoning as to why it shouldnt be - is my vote.
You know there's nothing wrong with that name.
There WAS nothing wrong with it... Until I was about 12 years old and that no-talent [censored] clown became famous and started winning Grammys. 
exactly, why should you change it? he's the one who sucks.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
I'm with the quick and dirty "halve the defense debuff from unyielding the way they halved every pool power defense buff" crowd, if such a crowd exists.
That and buffing the resist energy/elements passives would quell the complaints about the set imho.
When Invul's resists and defense were nerfed, I find it odd that the defense debuff in Unyielding wasn't nerfed as well. Seems a bit out of line considering the overall negative adjustments to all the powers.
Arc Salvo: Okay hold one sec guys, we can't just rush in blindly vs these Nemesis, they've got these ranged aoe's tha-
Teammate1(charging in): Shut up, Arc Salvo, you lame*$% Viewtiful Joe wannabe! What do you know?!
Teammate2(also charging): yeah, ST#& arc salvo u PWR RANGR U!
Arc Salvo: *sigh*
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People still play invuln? Yeah, right. Next you'll be telling me people still fight Hamidon.
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What is this Hamidon you speak of?
In fact what are Hazard Zones? All I've seen are tumbleweeds.....LOL, IJ.
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I say we give _castle_ an overload of pms on this subject he would respond to our cries for help hopefully.
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though castle is the man. such suggestions are more harmful that good. i know you say this in jest but some people are normal and might not understand. lets not punish a man for being helpful to us.
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/agree Castle goes above and beyond and heck Jonyu is the Brute rep. He's the one that should be catering to our incessant whining!
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.