Defense and Scaling
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-11 16:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Don't forget that accuracy debuffs were heavily affected under ED. My Darkest Night (which was about a 90% -ACC before) is now only 65% -ACC, a fairly hefty change.
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Debuffs are applied to To Hit, not Accuracy. So, a 30% To Hit Debuff on an AV would result in the AV having (50% - 30%) * 1.5 [Their Accuracy Modifier] or 30% chance to hit someone with no Defense. If you have 5% Defense on top of the Debuff, that would be cut down to 22.5% chance to hit. If you have 20% Defense on top of the Debuff, then the AV's chance to hit would be 7.5%. A Defender with Darkest Night with 3 even level To Hit Debuff Enhancements has a 30% To Hit Debuff.
Lastly, To Hit Debuffs essentially fulfill the function of Defense for everyone the Debuffed target attacks.
Everyone go take and slot Smoke Grenade!
Come to think of it, whoever said SG worked better against LTs/bosses was wrong.
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Don't forget that accuracy debuffs were heavily affected under ED. My Darkest Night (which was about a 90% -ACC before) is now only 65% -ACC, a fairly hefty change.
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Debuffs are applied to To Hit, not Accuracy. So, a 30% To Hit Debuff on an AV would result in the AV having (50% - 30%) * 1.5 [Their Accuracy Modifier] or 30% chance to hit someone with no Defense. If you have 5% Defense on top of the Debuff, that would be cut down to 22.5% chance to hit. If you have 20% Defense on top of the Debuff, then the AV's chance to hit would be 7.5%. A Defender with Darkest Night with 3 even level To Hit Debuff Enhancements has a 30% To Hit Debuff.
Lastly, To Hit Debuffs essentially fulfill the function of Defense for everyone the Debuffed target attacks.
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Thanks for the clarification Castle!
W00T. -ToHit is still as strong as DEF and +ToHit still "penetrates"
<-----Happy with the implementation (on paper at least)!
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Don't forget that accuracy debuffs were heavily affected under ED. My Darkest Night (which was about a 90% -ACC before) is now only 65% -ACC, a fairly hefty change.
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Debuffs are applied to To Hit, not Accuracy. So, a 30% To Hit Debuff on an AV would result in the AV having (50% - 30%) * 1.5 [Their Accuracy Modifier] or 30% chance to hit someone with no Defense. If you have 5% Defense on top of the Debuff, that would be cut down to 22.5% chance to hit. If you have 20% Defense on top of the Debuff, then the AV's chance to hit would be 7.5%. A Defender with Darkest Night with 3 even level To Hit Debuff Enhancements has a 30% To Hit Debuff.
Lastly, To Hit Debuffs essentially fulfill the function of Defense for everyone the Debuffed target attacks.
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Castle, back when debuffs were explained originally (by Geko or Positron) they were stated to be a function of multiplication/division (not a straight subtraction/addition like defense was.)
Has this been changed? Or is this now how it is figured? Because facing off against +mobs would immediately (and drastically) impact the accuracy debuff.
The way I understood it used to work that Total_Hit = (Base_Accuracy * Purple_Patch_Modifier) * (Debuff * Purple_Patch_Modifier)
This covers both the increasing accuracy *and* the fact that powers that affect mobs are hit by the diminishing returns of mobs resisting the power via the purple patch.
Just like attacks have to deal with their decreasing accuracy and decreasing damage, but you can't slot debuffs {to hit better with accuracy SOs}.
AFAIK, there was never a time that I could throw out a -90% subtraction on accuracy, as it was always "division". They would always have 10% of their accuracy (which for old style bosses even level was still about 7.5% accuracy.)
Still here, even after all this time!
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That facet is that they are reduced by the purple barrier (as are all powers that affect foes)
[/ QUOTE ] Ahhh, I see where you are coming from. I am not under the impression that RI debuffs less against a +5 than a +0.
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That facet is that they are reduced by the purple barrier (as are all powers that affect foes)
[/ QUOTE ] Ahhh, I see where you are coming from. I am not under the impression that RI debuffs less against a +5 than a +0.
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Debuffs are listed as "attack" powers (and cause aggro) so are resisted directly by the purple patch on mobs.
Damage debuffs were tested and proven to work this way, and it was clarified that accuracy did too, I believe.
Still here, even after all this time!
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as to be honest that is what I thought your MO was when I have brought up a valid and demobstrably true mathematical effect and all you keep bringing up is artistic issues to obfuscate the point I was trying to make.
[/ QUOTE ] The artistic is not a red herring, but directly pertinent to the issue you raise. You want to ignore it and suggest the game is focused on preserving some illogical application and should ignore any artistic purpose the math intended to support.
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To me the social aspect is no more a part of the game itself than a conversation you might have with a friend as you are playing a video game on a ps2, gamecube, or xbox"
[/ QUOTE ] My response doesn't take your statement out of context at all. I refute your whole contention that the social aspect of ths game is no more important than a conversation I might have with someone while playing Halo. I simply quoted part of it for the sake if brevity. I guess that confused you, but you seem to not have processsed my response at all. It refutes the entire assertion and not just the part I quoted.
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My assertion rests upon the fact that in certain cases the developers desire varying effects dependant upon mob classification...
[/ QUOTE ] Then you seem to be confused about the entire debate. This has nothing to do with mob type...but their level, which I have been calling +Rank. That may be confusing with rank in terms of minion, lt, boss, apologies if that is what you thought I meant. I am referring to a mob going from lvl 1 to lvl 2 and the fact that the Uny debuff does not scale appropriately.
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If the original idea was to make the debuff effect a 6.67% increase in damage from bosses
[/ QUOTE ] Again, apoloogies for the confusion, but I am not stating anything in terms of bosses vs minions.
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Asking for a particular effect to be examined in light of this change is hardly comparable to wanting perma-unstoppable.
[/ QUOTE ] Out come the strawmen. My response to your feelings that the debuff is not appropriate. It is not a statement on whether they should confirm the effects.
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yet you resist my attempts to garner new information here for no reason that is really clear to me.
[/ QUOTE ] Well, the discussion is over. You've repeated this like 10 times now and you haven't show one single statement where I say this or suggest this. What is your disfunction here Hunter?
EDIT:
Btw, it looks like you are right about the Acc added to the 5% base on the low end once they move the to hit modifier outside.
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Don't forget that accuracy debuffs were heavily affected under ED. My Darkest Night (which was about a 90% -ACC before) is now only 65% -ACC, a fairly hefty change.
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Debuffs are applied to To Hit, not Accuracy. So, a 30% To Hit Debuff on an AV would result in the AV having (50% - 30%) * 1.5 [Their Accuracy Modifier] or 30% chance to hit someone with no Defense. If you have 5% Defense on top of the Debuff, that would be cut down to 22.5% chance to hit. If you have 20% Defense on top of the Debuff, then the AV's chance to hit would be 7.5%. A Defender with Darkest Night with 3 even level To Hit Debuff Enhancements has a 30% To Hit Debuff.
Lastly, To Hit Debuffs essentially fulfill the function of Defense for everyone the Debuffed target attacks.
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Is this going to completely overpower things? Before you jump on me for saying that let me explain...
If suddenly debuffs + Defence make the game 'too easy' again, this will just end up resulting in more nerfs towards those classes who utilize these powers?
I mean really, a %7.5 chance to hit for an AV?????? Thats a joke.
Am I completely missing something here? 
Can we just get a full accuracy equation please? ... or a link to the post if it is already there.
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That facet is that they are reduced by the purple barrier (as are all powers that affect foes)
[/ QUOTE ] Ahhh, I see where you are coming from. I am not under the impression that RI debuffs less against a +5 than a +0.
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Debuffs are listed as "attack" powers (and cause aggro) so are resisted directly by the purple patch on mobs.
Damage debuffs were tested and proven to work this way, and it was clarified that accuracy did too, I believe.
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From Castle:
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Lastly, To Hit Debuffs essentially fulfill the function of Defense for everyone the Debuffed target attacks.
[/ QUOTE ] This suggests there is no inherent weakness of one versus the other from a design perspective. Which is why Arcana's statement is a curiosity. It doesn't preclude the PP from reducing the debuff, but I haven't seen any statement that says the PP provides -to hit buff resistance as of yet.
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This suggests there is no inherent weakness of one versus the other from a design perspective. Which is why Arcana's statement is a curiosity. It doesn't preclude the PP from reducing the debuff, but I haven't seen any statement that says the PP provides -to hit buff resistance as of yet.
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Debuffs are affected by level difference, so that 30% debuff won't be a 30% debuff against a +2 enemy.
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An excellent change overall, that gives added survivability to defense based sets vs. Lts, bosses, and higher level mobs in general while slightly reducing their survivability by increasing final to hit floors for bosses and AVs. I like the fact that the functionality of non-final (read: NOT Elude, Overload, or Kujin Retsu) defense powers is boosted, while reliance on those final powers is decreased.
This makes the already strong purple inspirations much stronger in PvE. With this change, anyone, regardless of AT, can use two small purple inspirations and "tank" an AV, or a room full of mobs (any class, any level) for 60 seconds. I fully support a reduction in effectiveness for purple inspirations.
To comment on the toHitBuff vs. defense in PvP issue, I believe that it is almost balanced as it is. I used to feel that toHitBuffs had too much of an advantage (and commented to that effect in response to the announcement of resistance to
defense debuffs, prompting a reply from Statesman that they are "looking into it"). With the reduction of base to hit in PvP to 50%, I no longer see a problem. Aim and Build Up still cut right through defenses, but only last a short while. Defense based sets need a counter, and these powers provide it. Focused Accuracy should probably be reduced in effectivness (and endurance cost), since it can always be on and allows the user to completely bypass non-9th power defenses. I don't see a problem with stacked tactics (from a team) cutting through defenses.
I'm actually curious now how the other side of the "purple patch," e.g. the reduced chance to hit and damage of players on higher level mobs, works. Is the reduced chance to hit manifested as a toHit debuff on players, or something else?
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This suggests there is no inherent weakness of one versus the other from a design perspective. Which is why Arcana's statement is a curiosity. It doesn't preclude the PP from reducing the debuff, but I haven't seen any statement that says the PP provides -to hit buff resistance as of yet.
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Debuffs are affected by level difference, so that 30% debuff won't be a 30% debuff against a +2 enemy.
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Indeed, and this change will greatly help the sharp scaling of to-hit debuffs. I might be able to consider +3 enemies again 
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This suggests there is no inherent weakness of one versus the other from a design perspective. Which is why Arcana's statement is a curiosity. It doesn't preclude the PP from reducing the debuff, but I haven't seen any statement that says the PP provides -to hit buff resistance as of yet.
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Debuffs are affected by level difference, so that 30% debuff won't be a 30% debuff against a +2 enemy.
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Indeed, the debuff will work just as well as the def, but since the debuff gets purple patched WHEN YOU APPLY IT, your 10% -ToHit debuff will not result in the foe receiving a -10% ToHit debuff if he cons higher than you. If he is three levels above you, he will get more like a 6.4% debuff. That -6.4% debuff works exactly as well as if everyone he was targeting had 6.4% more DEF.
Some people say this makes DEF better than -ACC, and in a solo situation that is true. But where your 10% DEF helps only you, the -ACC debuffs helps your whole team.
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This suggests there is no inherent weakness of one versus the other from a design perspective. Which is why Arcana's statement is a curiosity. It doesn't preclude the PP from reducing the debuff, but I haven't seen any statement that says the PP provides -to hit buff resistance as of yet.
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Debuffs are affected by level difference, so that 30% debuff won't be a 30% debuff against a +2 enemy.
[/ QUOTE ]I know things like Slows are less effective in what appears to be both duration and magnitude.
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This suggests there is no inherent weakness of one versus the other from a design perspective. Which is why Arcana's statement is a curiosity. It doesn't preclude the PP from reducing the debuff, but I haven't seen any statement that says the PP provides -to hit buff resistance as of yet.
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Debuffs are affected by level difference, so that 30% debuff won't be a 30% debuff against a +2 enemy.
[/ QUOTE ]I know things like Slows are less effective in what appears to be both duration and magnitude.
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Slow leads this wierd double life. It's kind of a status and kind of a debuff, and so sometimes it gets the best of both worlds, and sometimes it gets the worst of both worlds. This seems to be a case where it gets the worst of both worlds. It's the platypus of CoH. Slow should not be used to meaasure the usual behavior of debuff or status.
While it appears from my testing that most debuffs do NOT have their duration shortened by the purple patch (just their effectivity), I haven't tested extensively enough (stopwatch) to be able to say that for sure.
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Then you seem to be confused about the entire debate. This has nothing to do with mob type...but their level, which I have been calling +Rank. That may be confusing with rank in terms of minion, lt, boss, apologies if that is what you thought I meant. I am referring to a mob going from lvl 1 to lvl 2 and the fact that the Uny debuff does not scale appropriately.
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Then we have been argueing entirely different points here.
I have nothing against the debuff scaling with level... that is fine by me actually as it is definately in line with the intended purpose of this change.
My only objection has been what it does to enemy classifications of the same level over what we currently see.
Currently the debuff within the same +0 level is -5% across the board... within the same level, this change will expand that debuff dependant upon villain type and I am not certain that is an intended effect.
Hopefully that clairifies my stance here... I have never been refering to the alteration over level differences... only the alteration within the same level that will be a byproduct of this change.
This effect is more subtle than the level difference one and might have originally been overlooked.
Just to point out... I have never been confused about my side of this argument here, I have always been talking about the change as it affects minions, lieutenants, and bosses... I referenced it in my original post and have remained consistant upon that point.
If you are talking about level differences then that is a different issue entirely and I am not in dissagreement with you here.
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My response to your feelings that the debuff is not appropriate.
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I am not saying the debuff itself is inappropriate... I am not saying the debuff should not scale with level.
All I am saying is that within the same level we always saw identicle debuffs across all villain types (barring special cases).
This change will adjust that parameter and I just want it to be considered.
As for "repeating myself"... apparently it was necessary as we were discussing two completely different things this whole time.
Maybe now that we are on the same page you can revisit your arguments in reference to what I am actually trying to get at here... the change in the debuff so far as level is concerned is not the issue I am trying to bring to light... that part makes sense to me.
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Then we have been argueing entirely different points here.
[/ QUOTE ] Too funny. Then I owe you an apology since it was I who challenged your assertion. It is incumbent upon me to understand your point.
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I am not saying the debuff itself is inappropriate...
[/ QUOTE ] Disregard my comment as I thought you were referring to +Levels.
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you can revisit your arguments
[/ QUOTE ] No need as I don't have anything compelling to compare the differences that might occur between a minion and a boss.
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sometimes it gets the best of both worlds, and sometimes it gets the worst of both worlds
[/ QUOTE ] Correct me if I'm wrong, but the PP was introduced to the game. It wasn't part of the original design strategy as far as we know. That is why I don't see why Debuffs would be any less effective than +DEF if we ignore the context of the game.
Heh, yep, no doubt about it. This is a sugar coat for the next round of nerfs to powers.
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Is this going to completely overpower things? Before you jump on me for saying that let me explain...
If suddenly debuffs + Defence make the game 'too easy' again, this will just end up resulting in more nerfs towards those classes who utilize these powers?
I mean really, a %7.5 chance to hit for an AV?????? Thats a joke.
Am I completely missing something here?
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H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
Mieux, you have no idea how relieved I am to see that we are finally on the same page here.
Looking back and reading over your posts keeping in mind that you were referring to level I have a much easier time understanding where you were coming from (and also why you felt so strongly about your position).
It is just unfortunate it took us so long to realize we were talking about entirely different things lol
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sometimes it gets the best of both worlds, and sometimes it gets the worst of both worlds
[/ QUOTE ] Correct me if I'm wrong, but the PP was introduced to the game. It wasn't part of the original design strategy as far as we know. That is why I don't see why Debuffs would be any less effective than +DEF if we ignore the context of the game.
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You're wrong. The idea that power effectiveness (accuracy, effect, duration, etc) would be lessened by level difference was in the game since launch. The purple patch simply narrowed the range of levels you could fight from something like +10 to +3.
The purple patch was eased a bit, to expand the level range to +5, if I recall correctly.
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sometimes it gets the best of both worlds, and sometimes it gets the worst of both worlds
[/ QUOTE ] Correct me if I'm wrong, but the PP was introduced to the game. It wasn't part of the original design strategy as far as we know. That is why I don't see why Debuffs would be any less effective than +DEF if we ignore the context of the game.
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You're wrong. The idea that power effectiveness (accuracy, effect, duration, etc) would be lessened by level difference was in the game since launch. The purple patch simply narrowed the range of levels you could fight from something like +10 to +3.
The purple patch was eased a bit, to expand the level range to +5, if I recall correctly.
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I believe Mieux should have used the word "should" instead of "would." We all know it does: he's asking if it ought to.
Personally I believe it ought to, but the reasoning is lengthy.
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A Defender with Darkest Night with 3 even level To Hit Debuff Enhancements has a 30% To Hit Debuff.
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Yikes. So did Darkest Night get a nerf somewhere along the line? Because 30% is the BASE tohit debuff percentage I've seen listed for it in many places. From what Castle wrote, the base is actually, what, 15%? Or have previous estimates of the power just been way wrong, and that bad info has made it into guides and character builders uncorrected? I'm guessing we just never knew the real numbers. (So count that as one more reason we need quantitative values in the power descriptions!)
And what about Radiation Infection? Is that the same type of debuff (ToHit, not Accuracy)? They both take ToHit Debuff enhancements. In the power and enhancement descriptions, the phrases are used interchangeably, but there's actually a pretty significant difference. Not that the difference is easy to explain, so I don't blame them for being vague on the details in the user interface.
My understanding was that they weren't doing anything to toHit debuffs. (Or toHit buffs, for that matter, though that's a related but separate debate, mostly focusing on PvP issues.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA