Not once, not twice, but three times...

XeroShadow · 01-19-2006 09:41 AM

I was never not wanted i always got a team and 80% of my friends list were + level tankers.

I've always been wanted. Often it was nothing more than padding or bridging though.

I love my defenders and ED cut my damage output

Did it really cut your damage output or just the frontloading of damage?

Besides only the best builds come close to self capping

Did you know that many people didn't even know Speed Boost offered anything more than a run speed boost because that was the only noticable effect to a character with perma hasten and stamina. The best builds had these but so did most everyone else.

Any character with an attack six slotted for damage was also very close to the damage cap. Add in self buffs and any external damage buff powers are effectively dessert as opposed to part of the meal.

A single sonic defender could also allow any non-tank to hit the damage resist cap with just a few powers. You shouldn't balance for a team of 8 people buffing the same stat but you should have enough room that a second or possibly a third are providing some form of benefit.

Freedom55 · 01-19-2006 11:02 AM

i just wanted to say thanks to the devs for listening to the appeals for the repeal.

and after playing in the new systems for the past little while i
do feel that many of the changes have actually made the game better.

I still miss herding ( and no i dont just mean PL farming dreck)
but what can i do. and some of the other things that i think need tweaking will probably get settled eventually.

Im just happy to think that the Devs and states are still listening to our suggestions on how to improve game play.
and rather than making it a 2 sided debate, incorporating
us into "The Vision"

Rajani Isa · 01-19-2006 12:11 PM

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Um actually since ED doesnt ADD anything it cant BREAK anything by remving it except leting folks 6 slot powers again.

ED did not ADD one thing to the game, not one.

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You realize that the code showing how much you are getting to different variables from all the enhancements in a given power is part of the ED patch, right?

If they rollback the ED patch, they would have to code the enhancement display stuff back in.

And then do a Q&A check just to make sure no ghosts surface.

Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net

Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.

Darkaj · 01-19-2006 12:34 PM

This is GREAT! Especially the news that Stealth won't be nerfed. Stealth is one of my favorite parts of the game.

I also love the idea that people will be able to solo all the missions -- no forced teaming -- yay!

Now, there are other commonsense changes that should also be made. For example, the wildly popular Jetpacks showed that there is no reason to make the first 14 levels a grind to get a travel power. Having a good travel power at level 1 did not imbalance the game or spoil anyone's fun -- so why not make it permanent?

Second -- get rid of the Stamina grind. One of the least fun aspects of the game is that in the teens, right when a bunch of great new powers are becoming available, you can't take any of them for *6 levels* because you have to get Stamina. The changes to Health to make the pool a little more worthwhile were nice, but there is still no justification for having to take the first 2 powers in order to get Stamina. Make Stamina an inherent = game will be much more fun.

Finally -- you really, really, need to find a way to accomplish the goals of suppression without suppression. Suppression is one of the most un-fun aspects of the game.

FivefifteenA

ScionofSatan · 01-19-2006 01:29 PM

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ME on the other hand ive always proposed tanks shoud not only be tough but hit hardbut have a horible, horible rechnage on every attack.

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I agree with this whole-heartedly. When they hit you, it should hurt worse than any other attacker (with the possible exception of blasters), but they should have a much slower attack rate, either because they are so big, so dense, so dumb, generally slow, or because they are very, very careful about WHO they are hitting, and how hard, so as to avoid killing an innocent bystander, a teammate, or even a villain (since tanks are heroes, after all).

And thanks for the backup, Neko.

ScionofSatan · 01-19-2006 01:37 PM

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they rollback the ED patch, they would have to code the enhancement display stuff back in.

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Leave it out. I'd rather have things be guesswork, but not nerfed, than nerfed, and obviously so.

ScionofSatan · 01-19-2006 01:52 PM

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You stated that you got no influence from drops. I stated I gathered a frickin buttload from drops. You are splitting hairs. I dropped out of SGmode for End of Arc bonuses because I thought they should have been scaled differently than simply being reduced to a mission complete prestige wise.

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Ok, first, I never said you got NOTHING from drops. That's false. If you say it again, I'd suggest you find the quote and put it in the post, otherwise I'm going to have to call you a liar. Again.

Secondly, now you're admitting even MORE "influence" not from drops. And none of this answers the math I did so painstakingly in that post for you. And if you think I "suck", then let's do this: We'll both start a character on the same server, with the same powersets, we'll play that character from one-fifty, in SG mode the entire time, and we'll record the exact drops we get, in each mission, how much inf we get from them when we sell them, and how much we have total at each "buy all new enhancements" level, and what we bought in the form of how all our powers were enhanced at that point, and how much inf we had left over. We'll also record each mission, and when we die (because the more debt you have, the longer it takes to level, and the more time you have to get enhancements to sell). That's the only way to settle this objectively. Of course, it would have to be on the honor system, since there is no way to prevent cheating by, say, getting a friend to give you inf.

Or better yet, YOU do it in SG mode, and I'll do it with inf from kills and mission bonuses, and we'll compare all the same notes, and we'll see who's right and who's wrong, once and for all.

If you don't want to go to all that trouble, then show me where the numbers were wrong in the post I did where I showed there is NO way you could get that kind of inf without kills/mission bonuses. Or shut up. Because your anecdotal evidence, even were it true and not exaggeration and poor recollection, does not reflect the "average" level 50, nor what they "ended up with" (which you still haven't defined...do you mean "ended up with" when you stopped playing them regularly, or ended up with after buying all enhancements as soon as you hit level 50?)

Anyway, this isn't going anywhere, and I'm bored with it.

P.S. I was just re-reading this after posting it, and I noticed something: You must suck at this game. That's the only way you could die enough to stay in a level long enough to get enough drops to have enough money to do what you said you did.

Yup, it all makes sense now. You suck. Heh. Sorry it took me so long to realize it. Guess you're not a liar after all.

XeroShadow · 01-19-2006 02:03 PM

Especially the news that Stealth won't be nerfed.

FYI stealth is still gonig to be altered. They are going to apply stealth suppresion to glowy interaction. The original change is being repealed because it caused potential griefing problems.

Having a good travel power at level 1 did not imbalance the game

Opinion not fully supported. Giving players a free power permanently could have further ramifications. I would also require the redesign of the 4 of the power pools.

because you have to get Stamina.

No you don't. You simply want the benefit of stamina without having to pay the cost. The game is balanced with you having to take some means of endurance management. It will always be so because we have a static endurance reserve. People choose stamina because you end up with the most bang for your buck.

but there is still no justification for having to take the first 2 powers in order to get Stamina

I happen to like the fitness powers prior to stamina. Swift and Hurdle allow me to get around much better and health reduces my downtime. If you don't like these powers then I suggest finding an alternate means of endurance management.

Make Stamina an inherent = game will be much more fun.

And even further imbalanced.

Flamus · 01-19-2006 02:08 PM

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P.S. I was just re-reading this after posting it, and I noticed something: You must suck at this game. That's the only way you could die enough to stay in a level long enough to get enough drops to have enough money to do what you said you did.

Yup, it all makes sense now. You suck. Heh. Sorry it took me so long to realize it. Guess you're not a liar after all.

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Umm ... so deaths mean someone sucks? Death *IS* suppose to be a learning tool. Anyway, I die ... and frankly i've gotten the first death badge -- and cause I *suck* cause i push a character to the breaking point. I find every weakness and strength.

Hell, i've fought and just about died an somehow got some good hits and survived. Then, again, i forgot i'm suppose to suck cause i die.

come on. find something else to be lame about.

You probably got PL'd or something, dropped on your head, and skipped the deaths. Who knows. but there is nothing wrong with dieing. so give out over it.

Flamus · 01-19-2006 02:12 PM

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because you have to get Stamina.

No you don't. You simply want the benefit of stamina without having to pay the cost. The game is balanced with you having to take some means of endurance management. It will always be so because we have a static endurance reserve. People choose stamina because you end up with the most bang for your buck.

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I agree here. My DA scrapper took stamina only cause in longer more demanding fights he was lacking. Dark Armor has 7 toggles. With him, I run like 6 i think at a time.

Even then, i don't NEED it. nor do i plan to take it either for all my characters.

Lycantropus · 01-19-2006 02:49 PM

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People choose stamina because you end up with the most bang for your buck.

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly. That's not a bad thing though... It helps keep the game fast paced and fun when you get the "big gun" powers, which is kinda' the point.

If you could defeat mobs at the levels you have those kinds of powers without having to take them (aka, your lower end ones scale up to be just as effective- comparitively speaking- as they were when you took them) then maybe it would be more of an option than it currently seems to be; at least for some AT's (ones with lots of toggles would still probably want it).

And yes, the powers you took at the lower levels are still "effective" and useful, but many of them are not nearly as effective against the mobs you faced when you first got them. The game is built around the assumption you got the higher end powers, and the mobs were built around that. This, of course, means more endurance cost, and a more winded you...

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Make Stamina an inherent = game will be much more fun.

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And even further imbalanced.

[/ QUOTE ]Only if it wasn't applied across the board to every AT. If everyone had it, then it's still balanced within itself.

The only "imbalance" I could see it cause, would be to give you three more power selections, and maybe a few more slots to play with (assuming you bothered to slot the other two powers you had to get to take Stamina- while I do on a few of my toons, some don't, that's all I'm sayin'). More choice doesn't mean imbalance. If all the toons work that way, that just means more "fun" choices. The PvE mobs get hit the same way, and hit you the same way... no real change there, except maybe you have one or two more ways to hit them, or keep from being hit. Since you still have do x ammount of damage to them before they fall, and vice versa, that really doesn't imbalance the game... just makes it a little faster paced... and fates forbid... super...

In PvE, most mobs can spam attacks and never get winded- they can do it all day, regardless of what they can do. Electric used to be the end-drainer that helped stifle that, but with all the changes it doesn't really do that any more... while I'm sure it's still good for PvP, it's pretty useless in PvE, as enemies are pretty much an "all or nothing" on endurance vs. effectiveness. Us having something even remotely comparable by having Stamina (though it still isn't as cool as what the mobs have) again, isn't imbalanced...

As for PvP, that would still be "balanced" within itself, as the same would apply to all the other players too...

People get Stamina not because they want to "exploit" anything as far as I'm concerned. Some get it because they have to because of the degree of endurance they need to keep their powers running (as it seems some Powers/sets are built around the assumption that the player has, or is going to get, Stamina) and just want to make it through a fight without getting winded half-way through. I do that with a few toons with Stamina only now 3-slotted, and end reducers in almost every power (including attacks).

I can also posit that regardless of "need" some just want less down time in the game... having to rest between every mob isn't "fun" nor is it "challenging". Sure, if you're with a group you like that gives you time for chit-chat, but in many PuG's this doesn't happen, or worse, someone (with or without the need to rest) goes running off and aggros a bunch of baddies. That leaves you with the option to a) run away until you can get your end up enough, or b) make due with what you have and hope you don't faceplant. Again... not fun... um.."challenging" maybe... but not fun (stupidity or a lack of consideration for the rest of the team is not the kind of "challenge" I find "fun" at any rate...)

"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.

XeroShadow · 01-19-2006 04:18 PM

Ok, first, I never said you got NOTHING from drops.

Your memory much like your comprehension skills need improvement:

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And in order to be fully decked out with SO's at even-con level the moment he hits lvl 50, he CAN'T be gaining prestige, or he won't have any inf. to spend on SO's.

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And none of this answers the math I did so painstakingly in that post for you.

It must have been painful to pull numbers from where you did.

Or better yet, YOU do it in SG mode, and I'll do it with inf from kills and mission bonuses, and we'll compare all the same notes, and we'll see who's right and who's wrong, once and for all.

I already compared with a friend who was leveling with me from 1-40 in CoV. I ran in SGmode from the very end of 29 to 40. He did not. Upon acquiring level 40 he had an extra 8 million infamy and I had an extra 2 Million.

If you don't want to go to all that trouble, then show me where the numbers were wrong in the post I did where I showed there is NO way you could get that kind of inf without kills/mission bonuses

Your example you were running invincible missions. This is not required to play the game. As you pointed out it is actually making the game more difficult, as it should. Also your proposed XP numbers that do not seem to fall in line with the actual XP requirements to gain a level in the 30+ game.

which you still haven't defined...do you mean "ended up with" when you stopped playing them regularly, or ended up with after buying all enhancements as soon as you hit level 50?

The latter. People who are still playing have excess of 50M a few I know even got into the 200M range.

P.S. I was just re-reading this after posting it, and I noticed something: You must suck at this game. That's the only way you could die enough to stay in a level long enough to get enough drops to have enough money to do what you said you did.

Nope sorry. I generally get complimented as one of the best players people have seen and was one of the highest level villains on Virtue for the first week of CoV. I did die but it was by no means frequently.

Yup, it all makes sense now. You suck

And not but a few posts back you were proclaiming I was too good for the game. Perhaps I'm just a whole lot better and particularly smarter than you? In this statement you've essentially said that i utilized what was supposed to be a punishment to maximize my rewards. I'd say that's downright ingenious.

XeroShadow · 01-19-2006 04:28 PM

If everyone had it, then it's still balanced within itself.

Incorrect. While it may seem like a universal buff it is infact a nerf to all endurance recovery powers.

The only "imbalance" I could see it cause, would be to give you three more power selections, and maybe a few more slots to play with

Currently my level 34 (test only) DM/Regen scrapper as well as my level 50 Kin/Psy defender both do not have stamina. These characters gain only the stamina boost not the 3 extra powers and various slots everyone else acquires. I'm also tempted to eliminate stamina from my EM/EA brute but have so far chosen not to because the benefits of Health and Swift on said character are too great.

(as it seems some Powers/sets are built around the assumption that the player has, or is going to get, Stamina

I stated before that the game assumes (as it should) that you will utilize at least part of your character for endurance management. Stamina is the easy way out.

Rajani Isa · 01-19-2006 05:14 PM

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they rollback the ED patch, they would have to code the enhancement display stuff back in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leave it out. I'd rather have things be guesswork, but not nerfed, than nerfed, and obviously so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just saying there was something added with ED. You were the one saying ED added nothing.

Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net

Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.

Rajani Isa · 01-19-2006 05:19 PM

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because you have to get Stamina.

No you don't. You simply want the benefit of stamina without having to pay the cost. The game is balanced with you having to take some means of endurance management. It will always be so because we have a static endurance reserve. People choose stamina because you end up with the most bang for your buck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree here. My DA scrapper took stamina only cause in longer more demanding fights he was lacking. Dark Armor has 7 toggles. With him, I run like 6 i think at a time.

Even then, i don't NEED it. nor do i plan to take it either for all my characters.

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I did, eventually, take stamina on my Dark/Dark scrapper. The only reason I even put three slots into it is eventually I want to take Whirlwind(? the third-tier Speed power), and it is an end hog. At that, when I had two I was going around just fine with DOs.

Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net

Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.

Mialiah · 01-19-2006 06:59 PM

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Or simply, when a mission is completed, then the mission is marked as completed.

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But since this is the way it actually does work, there is no exploit there.

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I thought the idea was:

Person A has glowie mission, set to Invincible
Person B joins team, both enter
Person A quits
Person B stealths mission, gets mega XP

Person A's mission isn't marked as 'completed' because they weren't there - it was finished by someone who wasn't on the team.

(so in that case, you could potentially fix this by denying mission completion bonus if the owner wasn't present when the mission was completed.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think it might work this way. A SG member of mine was on a mission with a random person - said person ran through HIS mission, clicking all the glowies and not doing anything useful (hence, stealing all his glowies, wich we consider rude, and leave him to deal with everything else). After asking her to quit and be useful several times, he quit. Quit the mission, quit the team - and when he logged in next, the mission was completed.. by someone else, who was no longer on his team. Dunno if thats how it always goes but..

Great_Scott · 01-19-2006 07:23 PM

I bought WoW the day it came out in November '04. I quit in the early days of January '05 with a 60 Hunter and 42 Rogue because the PvE game was too easy, except for EQ-style grinding in instances hoping for the 1% chance something would drop that would improve my character and someone else didn't win the roll for it. After five months of 2-5 Hate raids a week for Earthcaller I've had my fill of that. And I'd rather stab out my eye with a salad fork than get involved with PvP.

Isn't this a sign that you might perhaps be a awesome MMO player, and therefore have a skewed idea on difficulty?

Obviously I would be in favor of reworking the entire system. The current system is nothing but a kluge intended to keep the game from becoming a total snoozefest.

Snoozefest? For great players like you, perhaps. I find the game an awesome challenge on Heroic with my Invuln/EM Tank, and may not ever reach SO's. Of course, that toon only has one slot in armors, and two in attacks...

(I think it's hilarious that my oh-so-mighty "tank mage" PB doesn't dare raise the difficulty past Tenacious because +2 Voids will murder her.)

Er, you just said the game was too easy? I don't get it, if you crave difficulty, why not play your PB on Invincible?

I am far from the only person to point out that the game is too easy. The devs themselves have done so in these forums. I heard Mr. Emmert himself say it in person at one of the East Coast appearances.

He has not said so post-Issue 6. In fact, I doubt he will in the future, either, since they are designing Mobs better, as you point out.

This brings us back to: games that only work if the player refrains from putting "X" in the center square are inherently uninteresting.

Uninteresting? To you? Certainly. Of course, the fact remains that there are ways to make the game harder for you, but the game remains too hard for me.

I don't like the fact that we can't both get what we want, but the fact remains: you can play with the center square taken away, but I can't make the game any easier.

Issue 4 was: You have to be bothered to find challenge, and I was allright.
Issue 6 is: You are allright, but I have no way to reduce challenge.

This is not, as you assert, zero sum. I am the "loser", when before we could both "win".

But that's not what you want. You don't want "synergy". You don't want to need a Defender backing you up and Scrappers or Blasters providing the real offense.

I feel the need to point out that an All-Blaster team, under the current Issue, is sub-par. The game design was "anyone should be able to team and have success", NOT "anyone and a defender should be able to team and have success". Try a better argument?

Outgoing damage, which kills your enemy quickly, is the best way to mitigate INCOMING damage. That is, if your enemy is dead, they can't hurt you anymore.

There are a few Blasters who would like to speak with you about this principle.

As you yourself point out two paragraphs later, unbalanced teams are now broken. How is this good?

It may be "fun" but it was crocking the economy something wicked, to the point where they had to invent a whole new economy for base construction because there was no way to make the old one make sense.

This is not a compelling argument. There should be no balancing based on scarcity of an unlimited resource. The base game design was broken, the economy never made sense, and this is a Developer problem from the beginning. There isn't any way to blame Level 50's from acting this way...

Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?

Great_Scott · 01-19-2006 07:29 PM

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Um actually since ED doesnt ADD anything it cant BREAK anything by remving it except leting folks 6 slot powers again.

ED did not ADD one thing to the game, not one.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize that the code showing how much you are getting to different variables from all the enhancements in a given power is part of the ED patch, right?

If they rollback the ED patch, they would have to code the enhancement display stuff back in.

And then do a Q&A check just to make sure no ghosts surface.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, rolling back ED, while a pleasant thing to think about, can't happen.

ED isn't the problem anyway, a skilled player can bypass the weird limitations that ED brings.

What REALLY needs to be repealed is the Issue 5 changes.

ED + No Issue 5 power alterations = good plan.

Of course, there are some selfish joykills that only care about other people's fun going down... but that doesn't matter, since everyone has their own opinion of what "fun" is, and that will always be the case.

Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?

Absorber_NA · 01-19-2006 07:50 PM

I could live with that

Cuppa_LLX · 01-19-2006 09:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Um actually since ED doesnt ADD anything it cant BREAK anything by remving it except leting folks 6 slot powers again.

ED did not ADD one thing to the game, not one.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize that the code showing how much you are getting to different variables from all the enhancements in a given power is part of the ED patch, right?

If they rollback the ED patch, they would have to code the enhancement display stuff back in.

And then do a Q&A check just to make sure no ghosts surface.

[/ QUOTE ]

actuall thats a change to the enhacment scrren and has not dies to a soft cap on powers

also the best a blaster can do with enhacments is 33%x6 thats what 198%? the blaster/scraper dammage cap is /500/

under I5 a tank could not reach the cap without diving into pool powers...

i stand by the same stand and sicon, dasher and many other.

Repeal ED or the global defense NERF, their over kill together.