Aside from concept, why pick anything over EM?
By
Behold_Gravitas,
Posted on: 2005-12-10 17:03 in Brutes
SS is nice cause you get knockout blow so early but i agree that concept would normally be the only reason to chose the other primaries
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SS is nice cause you get knockout blow so early but i agree that concept would normally be the only reason to chose the other primaries
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Indeeed, the reason I don't include DM or FM is because they have their own reasons to be on par with EM. (DM has NICE utility and FM has some good AE/Fire damage)
Personally, it seems to me that Stone Melee/Super Strength might be underpowered? Unless someone can share their insight who has played EM and SM or EM and SS?
Btw, here are the endurance costs (Although I think the recent 11.5% reduction or whatever is NOT factored in)
Energy Melee
Super Strength
Stone Melee
SS underpowered? Without Rage, most certainly. With rage, and it has the best melee DPS bar none.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
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SS underpowered? Without Rage, most certainly. With rage, and it has the best melee DPS bar none.
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And what about Stone Melee?
Additionally, I don't think the smashing damage coupled with rage is going to get any near Energy Melee's damage. Smashing damage is very resisted in the end game.
Rage is 80% damage buff that is still perma-able in addition it also buffs accuracy. so you need not slot accuracy in the attacks anymore leaveing you more slots to play with.
Also, my milage always seems better when i'm working with attacks that do knockdown as opposed to stun,mez,etc
knockdown they're not attacking you AND they're not superspeeding away either.
Energy Melee is heavy on Mez if i recall. Stone and Strength are heavy on Knockdown
add in the fact that Stone and Strength both have MUCH better AoE attacks (again with lots of knockdown ability and a a higher brawl index rating) and the sets begin to look a bit better.
oh yeah and one more thing. Energy Melee doesn't have a ranged attack. stone and SS both do. slow. but its there.
power isn't always measured in pure DPS.
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Rage is 80% damage buff that is still perma-able in addition it also buffs accuracy. so you need not slot accuracy in the attacks anymore leaveing you more slots to play with.
Also, my milage always seems better when i'm working with attacks that do knockdown as opposed to stun,mez,etc
knockdown they're not attacking you AND they're not superspeeding away either.
Energy Melee is heavy on Mez if i recall. Stone and Strength are heavy on Knockdown
add in the fact that Stone and Strength both have MUCH better AoE attacks (again with lots of knockdown ability and a a higher brawl index rating) and the sets begin to look a bit better.
oh yeah and one more thing. Energy Melee doesn't have a ranged attack. stone and SS both do. slow. but its there.
power isn't always measured in pure DPS.
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Regarding the AOE attacks...
Stone Melee and Energy Melee AOE attacks have the same brawl index with Energy dealing some energy damage. Super Strength's AOE has a higher brawl index but at the same time the recharge timer is much longer then the timer on EM's AOE attack.
Edit: Additionally, I believe the accuracy buff of Rage is only 20-25%. (I would have to double check as I am not sure on this ...)
Second Edit: The COH hero builder claims Rage gives 83% accuracy buff... however I would of sworn that on the Tanker forums it was around the number listed above through various testing by KaliMagelena or whatever her name is.
SS takes it hard on the damage type getting resisted, but it has Rage and a whole lot of knockdown.
Chain knockdown is broken in PvE. The reason I can solo basically any elite boss has nothing to do with my secondary...it's just SS punch/haymaker/KO with air superiority to round out the chain. Bosses spend most of the fight falling down or getting up.
Aside from concept, why pick anything over EM?
Because they want to.
Why ask why?
well, i have no experience with stone melee, but i can comment on super strength.
there was one reason outside of concept i chose super strength for my brute: rage.
rage allows me to slot all my attacks 2dam/2end/2rech, which gives me a full attack chain with just jab/punch/haymaker, as well as allowing me to attack forever. rage also gets over the initial weakness of the brute class- the low starting damage (before fury buildup).
as far as i know, rage is a 50% to-hit buff (not accuracy buff), and even if it is lower, it allows you to hit oranges regularly without any accuracy in your attacks. this on top of the 80% damage boost. the drop sucks, but is a lot more manageable without the hasten drop i used to have.
Proud captain of BOSS
The Altruist, Lvl 50 (+3) INVUL/SS Tanker
Omega Centauri, Lvl 50 SS/INVUL Brute
Stone melee has - by far - the best sound effects. No other set sounds as powerful when you swing at an enemy.
whirr bop just does not compare to rumble blam.
So stone is simply more fun because it has the smashtastic SFX
Well...
Some people like Knockdown more than Disorients.
Some people like the Rage buff, as it is active a lot more than buildup(even if I three-slot BU).
Some people just plain like it.
That said, my SO runs a SS/EA brute along with my EM/EA. They're pretty neck and neck, for the most part. So.... On paper, I suppose there's the question of why. But in practice? Why ask why seems to be the question of the day.
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Stone melee has - by far - the best sound effects. No other set sounds as powerful when you swing at an enemy.
whirr bop just does not compare to rumble blam.
So stone is simply more fun because it has the smashtastic SFX
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I agree 100%. I'm suddenly enjoying the SMASHING effects of SM to the fullest with my current Brute. EM is a sight but with SM,its a sight for sore eyes when I bring the stone hammers against my foes when they're already knocked down. It really adds insult to injury in the most painful sense. SM has definitely won me over. The sound effects and the absolute SMASH of this set really is fun to use!
[Beta Testers]Zombie Man: Harlot is Swan's nickname too. And Dominatrix. And Sister Psyche. And Mynx. And Bobcat. And Synapse.
Uhm, I took SS cause, well, I don't crunch numbers like a fiend. I saw it had an AE, and I like AE's. AE's are what drop the packs in a hurry if slotted right.
And Rage, well, rage just kicks butt... period. With rage up and some +ACC in the attacks I can take on reds and purps like a champ.
If only stone melee had rage.... *sigh*
Oh, and something like KO blow instead of fault. Grr.
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If only stone melee had rage.... *sigh*
Oh, and something like KO blow instead of fault. Grr.
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Seismac Smash deals damage equal to KO blow they just get it at 18.
Personally I quite like fault and overall with Ragdoll Knockdown, Knockup and Knockback has improved quite alot since it takes a while for your enemies to get up, especially Freak tanks.
And Seismic smash might just be the most smashtastic strike in the game.
Because, quite simply, not everyone is a min maxer. And they don't worry about such things.
Ill share my experience with Stone/Stone up to this point @ 34
When standing toe to toe with electric or other brutes, I have consistently moved through mobs faster / dealed damage better. I think it has to do with how my brute is built and slotted.
Stone Mallet, Heavy Mallet, and sesimic smash are all six slotted three damage and three accuracy. Stone melee is three slotted two acc and one dmg.
With hasten on the combo regens extremely quickly and renders most targets disoriented/juggled indefinitely. I have hasten three slotted thus I have little downtime in it.
I run rooted and stone armor 24/7, three slots in swift helps bunches with my running speed (which is at a normal rate, rather than gimped speed) For situations where im fighting blasters I took Brimstone Armor (1 slot, defense), helps in many pvp/pve settings to resist multiple damage types. On top of that I have Earth's Embrace three slotted with heals giving me a 800-1000 heal every couple minutes, works nicely as a panic button. Has turned the tide of many pvp battles.
I have aid self six slotted with interruptable time x 3 and Healing x 3, which makes it nere un-interruptable as I can heal inbetween most dot's.
For my endurance issues I took Stamina, and on top of that for the stacking regen effects I took health, both are three slotted apropriately (sp?) I had hurdle for fun (helped me to escape many situations that SS often creates) but dropped it for tp-foe, which is very useful in PvE and Warburg.
In the future I plan on taking teleport so I can tp away from Immobs that get through my rooted, and eventually taking granite armor (and possibly hurdle again). Once its all said and done, without pure numbers im not saying too much, but in my experience I have not seen an equal in front loaded damage or resistances when pvping and teaming with other brutes.
Beyond all that the sound is by far the best, and has a psych-out factor in pvp, and lots of disorients and such in PvE. The only time my brute felt slow was between 15 and 22. from 1-14 and 22+ its been a blast.
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SS underpowered? Without Rage, most certainly. With rage, and it has the best melee DPS bar none.
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And what about Stone Melee?
Additionally, I don't think the smashing damage coupled with rage is going to get any near Energy Melee's damage. Smashing damage is very resisted in the end game.
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Well that's an interesting theory but it's hard to quantify "very". You seem to want to min/max this debate with numbers but a good portion of your argument is subjective. Exactly how much is resisted in the end game? When does it start? And does that resistance overshadow the practically always on nature of something like Rage? Sems like your gut feel is no but this entire post starts off pure numbers and being objective and ends up with nothing but subjective opinion. The AE attack for SS is tronger but comes later but the heavy hitting single target for SS comes earlier but is weaker than the EM version. So which wins?
In the end I'd agree with this:
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Because, quite simply, not everyone is a min maxer. And they don't worry about such things.
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Having both a lvl 50 Inv/SS and Inv/EM tank, I chose SS for my brute. For three reasons really, or should I say powers:
Rage, as previously stated adds a nice damage buff and tohit buff. My inv tank hardly ever misses when attacking a pesky stalker. And toe to toe with a an Elude SR scrapper and I can get some hits in.
Footstomp has a LARGE AoE and with the knockdown keeps me that much safer. It does great damage for a melee AoE as well. Much better than the PUNY Whirlwind or whatever teh EM AoE is called. Whirlwind has a tiny AoE and paultry damage by comparison.
Hurl, the bane of many a flying foe. It has -fly, so my hurl with two range enhancements makes for a pretty deadly combo on flying foes. I knock them out of the sky and try to 'catch' the fly ball with my Knockout Blow. Nothing like running around trying to hit a falling foe like that. 
On top it does nice knockback/down so if they are superspeeding away I can run/jump up on them pretty quick while they are getting back up. Yeah, it's a slow animation but it's well worth it for versitility. The -fly is invaluable.
While EM's burst damage in the form of ET and TF are great, the acc buff of rage does wonders.
Some strong cases have been made with Super Strength all centering around the AOE it gets and the Rage power it gets. However, what about Stone Melee?
A previous poster said that Super Strength without rage would be underpowered... so how does this hold up to stone melee?
Edit: I am convinced with Super Strength now but I am still not convinced with Stone Melee. People made good points and Super Strength has some great staple powers.
the long winded post indicates how a stoner works. Oh and for clairfication how does BuildUp differ from Rage. From what I understand both give you damage + tohit buffs? With the way mine is slotted I can run it almost perma, so how does that differ from rage?
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the long winded post indicates how a stoner works. Oh and for clairfication how does BuildUp differ from Rage. From what I understand both give you damage + tohit buffs? With the way mine is slotted I can run it almost perma, so how does that differ from rage?
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because there is a massive difference between the "almost" perma of build up and the perma of rage. if you 3 slot build up, it's up 10 seconds, down for 35, if you 3 slot rage, it's up for 120 seconds, down for 2 (with the built-in 10 second downtime making those 2 seconds meaningless anyway).
Proud captain of BOSS
The Altruist, Lvl 50 (+3) INVUL/SS Tanker
Omega Centauri, Lvl 50 SS/INVUL Brute
My title is a little deceiving because I am only going to refer to two primaries versus Energy Melee. (I am NOT going to include Fire or Dark)
Basically, why would someone (Other then concept) pick Super Strength or Stone Melee over Energy Melee?
1) SS/SM both deal smashing damage compared to Energy Melee's Energy/Smashing Damage. Smashing/Lethal damage becomes VERY resisted in the end game. Thus, SS/SM will lose out on DPS as levels progress.
2) Stone Melee/Super Strength both have knockback and Energy has disorient. All the level 8 (Knockoutblow) and 18 (Total Focus/Seismac Smash) have holds. I'd say this evens out. (Although Disorient is sometimes considered "weaker" since enemies behave oddly at times)
3) The Brawl Indexes are almost identical:
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Energy Melee-
Barrage - 0.6944 Smashing * 2 + 0.2500 Energy * 2
Energy Punch - 1.9444 Smashing + 0.8333 Energy
Bone Smasher - 2.7778 Smashing + 1.7778 Energy
Whirling Hands - 1.6667 Smashing + 1.1111 Energy
Stun - 0.4167 Smashing + 0.2778 Energy
Energy Transfer - 4.3333 Smashing + 8.3333 Energy
Total Focus - 2.7778 Smashing + 7.1111 Energy
Stone Melee
Stone Fist - 2.7778 Smashing
Stone Mallet - 4.5556 Smashing
Heavy Mallet - 6.3333 Smashing
Hurl Boulder - 4.5556 Smashing
Tremor - 2.7778 Smashing
Seismic Smash - 9.8889
-Super Strength-
Jab - 1.8889 Smashing
Punch - 2.7778 Smashing
Haymaker - 4.5556 Smashing
Knockout Blow - 9.8889 Smashing
Hurl - 4.5556
Foot Stomp - 3.9444 Smashing
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5) Here are the activation times for each set:
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Barrage 1.3 seconds
Energy Punch .6
Bone Smasher 1.5
Whirling Hands 1.7
Stun 1.8
Energy Transfer 1
Total Focus 3.3
Stone Fist .6
Stone Mallet 1.5
Heavy Stone Mallet 1.5
Fault 2.1
Hurl Boulder 3.8
Tremor 3.3
Seismac Smash 1.5 (Equal to Total Focus in brawl index)
Jab 1.1
Punch 1.2
Haymaker 1.5
Hand Clap 1.2
Knockout Blow 2.2
Hurl 3.8
Foot Stomp 2.1
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Stone Fists is (recharge 4)
Stone Mallet is (recharge 8)
Heavy Mallet is (recharge 12)
Fault is (recharge 20)
Seismic Smash is (recharge 20)
Hurl Bolder is (recharge 8)
Tremor is (recharge 14)
EM
Barrage - 2
Energy Punch - 4
Bone Smasher - 8
Whirling Hands - 14
Total Focus - 20
Stun - 20
Energy Transfer - 20
SS
Jab - 2
Punch - 4
Haymaker - 8
Hand Clap - 30
KO Blow - 25
Hurl - 8
Foot Stomp - 20
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Finally, the endurance costs are the same across the board assuming the brawl index is equal. That means if a power has a brawl index of say 5, the endurance cost is the same as the power with a brawl index of 5 in another set. (NOTE: Only applies to these sets with a few minor exceptions)
Ultimately, I am wanting to know why would anyone choose Super Strength or Stone Melee over Energy Melee? (Concept builds NOT included)
I know SS gets Rage which is a nice power but is it really worth it to sacrifice everything energy gets?
I am really hoping for a response because I cannot see why would anyone choose these two sets.