Why is base building so discouraging?
By
AimlessWanderer,
Posted on: 2005-11-23 23:30 in Base Construction
I gave the example in another thread that ist like a carnival game. You know they show you cool prizes and you play and then they give you a 3 cent plastic snake... Collect 10 of those and you 50 cent minuture stuffed bear and so on..
Its really discouraging to earn badges for weapons that cant be place for months.
There is too much waiting and saving for something that isnt that cool and way over priced.
The devs have also FORCED you to have to upgrade and add rooms you might not even want or need. Like only allowing 2 teleporters in a pretty big room and requiring 8 rooms for raids or only allowing 2 tables in the workshop. Then charging 100K to even do a raid
My VG signed on to this game because of bases and PVP. They are slobbering to do base raids. I estimate it will be a minimum of 25-32 weeks to have a base that is the modestly defensive. We are talking well over a year to have a pretty good one.
Bases could have been a super cool addition to the game that would keep people ineterested in the game but it looks like its just a big time and money sink. A lot of effort for not much in return.
Charging 600,000 - 7 million to place items we have EARNED the schematics for and EARNED the salvage for and EARNED The room it goes and EARNED the plot upgrade is just not right. A device costs more than the freaking plot!
We were discussing this tonight. Its costing us at least 3 million just to do the Catherdral. And for what. An Item which gives us a 1% increase in something. For that money we could just buy everyone a life time supply of inspirations that will have basically the same effect.
We are all 40 or about to hit it and were going to focus on the base. Right now all we will be doing is twidling our thumbs waiting for I7 and hoping people dont get bored and move on to another game.
Base construction has so many possiblities, however the amount is rediculess. In the instruction booklet it states every 14 days you have to pay construction cost to keep it operational. Just in time too I was finally beginning to earn enough to add another room. The would be great if it were real time I guess. I share this game with my son and every other night works for us. However thats 7 days to pay for this monster. I was saving for level 20 and capes then I just couldn't change the character I created just for a cape. With all this saved prestige I was so looking forward to COVs, bases, and a reinjection of serious rpg. I cannot see a reason to splurge for an additional headache. Games are supposed to be fun in all my time reading comics watching cartoons I never once heard or read that the hall of justice was closing cause the electic company wants paid. Reality it might be but the reason I'm playing this is distraction and escapism. After 8 hours of real work, its nice to sit down go take care of some evil-doers and then kick back at the workstation to create a super weapon and have the power go off. No bug or computer failure just another "aspect" thrown in. Repair cost from raids are high enough why do we have to pay to make, repair, and then keep after 2 weeks. Right by that point you realize that it just wasn't worth it. Hello I think we need a patch to make this a reward instead of a cruel "real world" experience. If you want stuff you are going to have bills, thanks dad but this is a super hero game not sims or payday.
i really enjoy these over dramatic threads. keep them up. they give me fun stuff to read.
but what i enjoy more is double posting. heh
[ QUOTE ]
I think it should have been fairly easy to get at least the first version of a secret base
[/ QUOTE ]
it would appear the game's developers disagree.
Now, there are a lot of good reasons why they may have set the prices very high at first with the intention of lowering them later. That may be the case here. I wouldn't get too concerned yet. The devs have already said they'll keep an eye on prices for the first few months and see how far people are getting.
The lack of patience shown by the player base concerns me...
[ QUOTE ]
Charging 600,000 - 7 million to place items we have EARNED the schematics for and EARNED the salvage for and EARNED The room it goes and EARNED the plot upgrade is just not right. A device costs more than the freaking plot!
[/ QUOTE ]
They are still trying to mask they don't have content. If you want better, try WOW. Of course you can't fly there 
Actually it is my opinion for the high cost is basicly bases are not ready yet for general use so they want to restrict the building of them until they can develop the code to make the bases work.
This is just my opinion since the Devs have responded very littlie to anything that deals with bases.
I don't mind That the light is at the end of the tunnel. Just let me be able to see the light.
I don't think a year is too long to save for a base that has all the bells and whistles. The again, I am a casual gamer and don't think 2 years is too long to hit the level cap.
If you keep playing, you will eventually have enough to have an awesome base. If you don't keep playing, it's a moot point.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I disagree. While the prices are very high and I wouldn't mind seeing them come down some, I don't think it's unreasonable to have to invest some time towards making a base. Also, I don't think that everyone is working towards the same goals. You want a PvP raid base. Others may want a PvE facilitation base, others just a fancy place to gather.
Overall, the current system works pretty well for giving the casual and RP community their gathering hall for a relatively small investment, a PvE for a proportionately larger cost, and the PvP as an evolving entity as you can always upgrade further, add more defenses, up your control and power to add still more defenses, etc - which in my opinion is a good system for the serious PvP community.
As for the PvPers who want to be 'leet' right now and lose patience quickly, well, honestly I think raids and the entire PvP system are better off without them. As for the IoPs giving small benefits, I suggest you check out the posts concerning the 'unique' super-IoPs, which do far more.
Obtaining and defending one such Item is likely to be quite a committment - honestly, I'd think it would be better to get a solid group of players together first before even going after one, and those who possess the patience to wait for a good base are going to be those kind of dedicated players. If you lose a few kiddieleet punks along the way, I'd say you're probably better for it.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
My one and only problem with working very hard to be able to afford a decent base is................ If you get raided at some point ALOT of that work can be thrown out the window when your gens, control, defeneses get destroyed.
That right there will just kill any sort of raiding for any sort of casual SG. My SG is somewhat casual, we have about 8 active members. We have atm, 1 workshop with one bench, 1 power room with 1 generator, 1 control room with a mainframe and database, 1 infirmary with one reclaimator, 2 teleport rooms with 3 porters total. All around a decent size base and we are moving alittle quicker then I expected actually. The problem is if we ever decide we want to raid alot of that can be destroyed. I mean it could literally set back months of work...
Discouraging the content is not a good thing...
[ QUOTE ]
If you keep playing, you will eventually have enough to have an awesome base.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, that's not true. It is quite possible for a group to reach a stage where they are unable to generate enough prestige to regualrly pay their rent. Now, rent only accumulates for a month so it's possible to skip paying rent for a while until you build a fresh stockpile of prestige...but I think we'd agree this is a potential problem for smaller SGs.
Now, if the hideouts/apartments they are adding in the near future act as an acceptable substitute for the small SG (it would be nice if up to as many as 7 people could share a hideout) then this issue becomes less pressing.
[ QUOTE ]
If you get raided at some point ALOT of that work can be thrown out the window when your gens, control, defeneses get destroyed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not everything blown up during a raid stays blown up afterwards. A percentage of the items are automatically fixed. This percentage can be improved by building certain aux items for the workshop.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you get raided at some point ALOT of that work can be thrown out the window when your gens, control, defeneses get destroyed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not everything blown up during a raid stays blown up afterwards. A percentage of the items are automatically fixed. This percentage can be improved by building certain aux items for the workshop.
[/ QUOTE ]
But can those items be destroyed themselves? They aren't much use if they can.
Poz, are you really so blind as to think the recovery chance matters? If there is even the POSSIBILITY of all the prestige needed to put down the stuff needed for a base raid will disappear, many people will choose to go in, destroy the base, and then hope that at least one item won't recover. At 100,000 prestige per raid, the cost is minimal compared to the potential damage inflicted. To really discourage that behavior, you would probably have to charge at least as much as a raid base is actually worth, maybe even up to ten times that, and people would still take advantage just to grief.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you get raided at some point ALOT of that work can be thrown out the window when your gens, control, defeneses get destroyed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not everything blown up during a raid stays blown up afterwards. A percentage of the items are automatically fixed. This percentage can be improved by building certain aux items for the workshop.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know this violates the "keep the players in the dark" policy...but what is that percentage?
If there's a 75% chance of a destroyed object surviving, that's still going to hurt, but it's worth considering. If there's a 5% chance of a destroyed object surviving--I'll never contribute my prestige to a SG that will waste it by being raidable.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. While the prices are very high and I wouldn't mind seeing them come down some, I don't think it's unreasonable to have to invest some time towards making a base. Also, I don't think that everyone is working towards the same goals. You want a PvP raid base. Others may want a PvE facilitation base, others just a fancy place to gather.
Overall, the current system works pretty well for giving the casual and RP community their gathering hall for a relatively small investment, a PvE for a proportionately larger cost, and the PvP as an evolving entity as you can always upgrade further, add more defenses, up your control and power to add still more defenses, etc - which in my opinion is a good system for the serious PvP community.
As for the PvPers who want to be 'leet' right now and lose patience quickly, well, honestly I think raids and the entire PvP system are better off without them. As for the IoPs giving small benefits, I suggest you check out the posts concerning the 'unique' super-IoPs, which do far more.
Obtaining and defending one such Item is likely to be quite a committment - honestly, I'd think it would be better to get a solid group of players together first before even going after one, and those who possess the patience to wait for a good base are going to be those kind of dedicated players. If you lose a few kiddieleet punks along the way, I'd say you're probably better for it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you havent really dwelved into base building that far. Say you want a defensive control center... Well thats like 1.5 million to be able to add 1 defensive item to the room. an item that will probably cost you another million to place. Its a slow, slow process if you want a "modest" defensive type base.
Another issue I havent seen really raised is that the bases really dont lend themselves to upgrading. Once you have rooms placed, if they connect to other rooms you cant really change them because it will break the contunity. So it will be a lot of selling back and deleteing several rooms just to add a larger or more defensive one. For instance you cant just upgrade a workshop to the one that accepts 3 tables. You either have to build 2 or go thru the complete rebuild process. Many of the rooms that allow you to place defensive items are larger, much larger in some cases. This in turn requires a larger plot. which requires more waiting and more complete rebuilding of the base
Then there are the defensive rooms. You cant simply just add a choke point or defensive hallway. You either have to go through the tedious process of selling everything back and deleteing rooms and then rebuilding everything or wait and wait and wait and build it right from the get go.
I spent a few hours on test coming up with a configuration taht would lend itself to future upgrades by being able to add doorways so continuity doesnt get broken and replace several long control rooms with defensive corridors. I dont think the majority of people are planning in that manner. I anticpate a lot of issues with upgrades in the coming months.
From what I see, its a much better option to just wait 4-6 months and save, save, save than it is to start and build in baby steps.
Then there are issues with salvage. Aside from slavage gain leveling off like prestige gain will, people in my VG are already running out of space to hold things because of the 20 item limit. In another couple of weeks we are going to just start having to build items we cant afford to place and actually have no place to put them since we dont have any defensive rooms.. and wont for a few months. And if you can place it requires much more power and much more control which puts you back to needing millions of prestige.
Thats what is discouraging... getting schematics and building an item you cant do anything with for 5 months.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you get raided at some point ALOT of that work can be thrown out the window when your gens, control, defeneses get destroyed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not everything blown up during a raid stays blown up afterwards. A percentage of the items are automatically fixed. This percentage can be improved by building certain aux items for the workshop.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know this violates the "keep the players in the dark" policy...but what is that percentage?
If there's a 75% chance of a destroyed object surviving, that's still going to hurt, but it's worth considering. If there's a 5% chance of a destroyed object surviving--I'll never contribute my prestige to a SG that will waste it by being raidable.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know there are the reapair bots which I always thought would be repairing during the raid. Then there is another item whose name escapes me but the description reads like it allows you to "rebuild" an item after a raid.
But none of this is really clear since all the item descriptions are so vague.. "Reduces the control cost of an Item" well great but by how much?
Alright folks - SHADOWBANE
Kickass game, similar problems. Costs too much, takes too long.
30 days after opening there was some small villages much like we're already seeing small bases. However, they could be invaded at any time - UNLIKE CoV. At the very least you could invade and kill people. Destroying buildings required a "bane circle" much like the current Raid Scheduling.
All in all it was a blast. I remember not even 60 days from launch having a level 50 fighterlock and flying around with 300 guildmates laying waste to city after city. Deathhead Legion on my server War, totally dominated and destroyed over a dozen cities during my stay there.
Destoryed cities were a total loss. Entirely gone. You die and you lose items even.
Overall the game did well until people realized the cost and the stakes. Hundreds of people participated in raids because of the stakes. Literally hundreds. I had some screen shots I still can't entirely believe :P Staying awake until 6AM because Da'boss wanted every last wall demolished. Fun times.
But I was on the winning side. In the end I had to leave because of bugs, lack of content, and well,,,, everyone else left when they lost their city to the overpowering guild. I sure hope CoV learns and doesn't fall into the same cycle of problems. Until then, we farm and farm and farm and farm and farm and...
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think a year is too long to save for a base that has all the bells and whistles.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which would be great except that for those of us in smaller SGs (you know, the kind formed by groups of RL friends that play together) that year will get us half a bell and no whistles. 
-RC
I'm of the belief that the current restrictions and penalties would make more people choose to be on the side lines, just like before when any bots or pets could cause you to have debt. That put me completely off from PvP, now that they fixed it, rather quickly it seems, I might try it again. You are trying to introduce PvP in my opnion as an alternative to no "end game" content, but hardly anyone is going to embrace it, if you make it so tough to build your way up. Some things that I think are a problem, created items on the work bench, you already had to scrim and scrape all these items, to make refined items to create the item you wanted, now you have to keep that item, because you have to pay to place it! If you have to start replotting your base, you can't just simply reabsorb that item and put it someplace safe, all you can do is buy another similar room to temporarily keep it, or you have to get your prestige back, while losing the crafting material that you used in the first place. From the time I started with all this super group set up, one of the most common questions is "how many members do you have?", now for anyone that is serious about possibly doing any PvP that will be a big watch phrase, and it might even discourage new groups, because if it's going to take you 1 year to set up and adequate base for PvP, then that means the natural draw for someone new to the game will not be to create a new group but to join one of the oldest largest ones in order to have access to that content with "ease". I think that stifles the "joy" of PvP because would you want to fight the same 10 sg's all the time? I am not saying that I know anything about how the devs have anything planned, but the above ideas seem to me to make some sort of sense. Heck I don't even know how active I personally will be in PvP, but it's something I am sure some of my members will be into and it's a part of the game what I don't want to just summarily close the door on. I do hope that they will somehow correct some of the inconsistencies (such as the raid portal for magic fitting in the smalles room type versus the tech raid porter) my base is all tech and I don't think I should have to get the larger room size so that everything in my base matches. I also firmly believe that items you create should be free to place, it would help in two ways, that way you are not charged twice (material and bench costs and then placement cost) and also it would prevent any issues with any member in your group creating an item and then placing it and depleting your prestige in one shot. Then the only arguments would be regarding asthetics and not squandering prestige.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you get raided at some point ALOT of that work can be thrown out the window when your gens, control, defeneses get destroyed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not everything blown up during a raid stays blown up afterwards. A percentage of the items are automatically fixed. This percentage can be improved by building certain aux items for the workshop.
[/ QUOTE ]
Losing an item in a base raid is a lot like losing a level in EQ. You risk losing critical functionality that will take a long time to regain.
The death penality in CoX is a lot less harsh than the EQ one so why does being raided carry this extremely heavy penality?
I have to agree with Reality Check. Bases do seem to be violently skewed to large SG/VG's. One of the most attractive elements of the 'City' games, IMHO, has been the ability to affiliate and identify with a small group but still feel like you make a difference. Now, if you associate with a small group you are at a distict and SEVERE disadvantage.
*shrug*
I, for one, am disappointed...
Heart.Breaker, Pinnacle
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."
-George Carlin
[ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with Reality Check. Bases do seem to be violently skewed to large SG/VG's. One of the most attractive elements of the 'City' games, IMHO, has been the ability to affiliate and identify with a small group but still feel like you make a difference. Now, if you associate with a small group you are at a distict and SEVERE disadvantage.
*shrug*
I, for one, am disappointed...
[/ QUOTE ]
I would have to agree as well. Those of us with small groups, that still enjoy playing our heroes as well and went to COV to create a small SG with our mains and all our alts still doens't number the limit of 15 bonus cap. Yeah some of you will come along and say well why didn't you join another group? Well because we didn't want to. I look at all the cool things I could do with the base editor and then look at the lack of prestige I have.....shrug.
Maybe there is something I'm not fully understanding about all this. Not like we want a base that can be raidable or anything but it would be nice to have the infirmary and the transporters and just a nice place to call our own.
I think it's a cool idea, just would rather it not be so twisted toward large groups.
[ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with Reality Check. Bases do seem to be violently skewed to large SG/VG's. One of the most attractive elements of the 'City' games, IMHO, has been the ability to affiliate and identify with a small group but still feel like you make a difference. Now, if you associate with a small group you are at a distict and SEVERE disadvantage.
*shrug*
I, for one, am disappointed...
[/ QUOTE ]
My SG is on the "modestly small" size too. And we really have to scrimp and save most of the time. We aren't even planning on PvPing for the most part, but even a good PvE base can be discouraging.
Larger rooms for millions. Buggy SG badge earning (I think the tree of wonder/autodoc requires a badge for healing. A badge that we can't seem to earn.)
Very frustrating.
Still here, even after all this time!
Hello all,
It just seems to me that if base building is one of the big goals to help entice you into actually spending time into PvP it is being discouraged in every possible way. I mean you get a hole in the wall, where you can just basically build a functional base. Yes you could build a base that would be raidable, but it would be pretty pathetic, you would never be able to deploy all the defenses that I am sure every person here would put into a base if money was no object. I read in the base faq (that was very well written) that supposedly the defenders of a base if their power is taken out can no longer spawn in their base after defeat but instead at the nearest hospital, whereas the attackers even when defeasted immediately respawn in your base. I would expect that they would make it so items at a certain point might be a major premium but what I consider the basics should be affordable enough for a decently large sized group to get up and running fairly quickly. My group has about 60 members and we only have a functional base, still at the begining base size, I think it should have been fairly easy to get at least the first version of a secret base, also by allowing people to build, you would actually allow them to create and customize a base to their own building style, when the PvP part takes off, how long will it be before there are 3 standard base types that everyone is using because they are the most effective for the prestige value. With the danger of losing base items as well, I just don't see where the risk versus reward is coming in at all. maybe it's just me. Thoughts?