Why is base building so discouraging?
By
AimlessWanderer,
Posted on: 2005-11-23 23:30 in Base Construction
That sort of illustrates another important point. You could have a 75 member group that only has about 10 people total that are what you would really call active as in play daily or at least every other day. In that case you wouldn't be at such a great advantage then either, since you only for a bonus for those first 15 members, it's not like getting a bonus for each and every member. Also, sometimes even though you ask member and explain what the prestige is for you can't force them to play on sg mode.
You could have a 75 member SG that's one player with 75 alts.
I always refer to players not alts. i think I already mentioned in this thread I think the limit should be based on accounts not toons.
I don't mean they are all alts, but if the thinking behind the pricing of base items is on the idea of 40 members that are pretty much playing daily or at least every other day, that skews all the number. I myself like playing alts and anyone that started with CoH, probably still has however many heroes to play as well in addition to however many villains they created. For arguments sake if you had only 5 characters (with both Coh/V you have 12 slots) then if you chose to at least play all of them, you might play each one day and your two favorite for an extra day each, if you only play 3-5 hours during the week and then maybe 6-8 hours on weekend, that is quite a bit of playing but no so much on the prestige if you are only donating with one of those characters 1 day a week or even 2 days a week.
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The lack of patience shown by the player base concerns me...
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Is it just me or did the Ego in this place just double???
- Okay - that was unfair. But the "impatience" issue is really a subset of the over all question. Why is it discouraging?
Well for one thing it requires a pretty monumental effort for very little return. And yes - regardless of the size of your SG the return thus far has been minimal.
Let's look at the items from the CoH perspective -
SG Mission Computer - everyone thought this would be cool. A possible answer for the lack of end game content. It A) Was bugged from the day they sent it out the door. B) Has no missions for anyone in CoH (so why make it an option at this point for us???). C) Please tell us if the item won't do us any good BEFORE we get our hopes up.
Reclaimators - One of the few Items I do like we've built. But even still - at first they were disapearing from the base without notice. Our SG spent over 60k on them until we got a decent response on it. Now they appear to be one of the few items that works - but frankly at 25% health, no end - and the only way to upgrade them was via the Healing Badges which were bugged, and even then we're talking some massive healing action. They are at best - a margninal success.
Teleporters - another useful item - but hey, even though you get 7 zones to choose from only 3 are actually useful to anyone... and I'm being generous when I include Striga as useful since you zone in at Moonfire which is a damn long way. You have Perez, Crey's Folley and Striga - the rest will probably seldom if ever be used. Again - marginal functionality.
Workshops - Hey we can build our own stuff!! Hey.... it costs us money when we do and they're only slightly better than off the shelf. Not a particularly good bargain there. I personally have issues with having to pay really outrageous prices for something I make with my own salvage. That grates on me.
Make me do TF's or something hard so that when I get the stuff -- I have to bust my butt to get it - but don't charge me for it after I've done all the work. It's insulting.
In essence - everything else will take so long - require such a level of sacrifice and for what? The more than likely probability that the quality of the experience will be the same as what we've come to expect? Broken, expensive trinkets??
Don't blame the player base for being impatient. Blame the dev team for releasing this without thinking it through - planning it sufficiently and testing it thoroughly.
The players had no part in this.
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Is it just me or did the Ego in this place just double???
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Is this the part where I respond with something witty like "Yes, since you arrived?" to start a silly flame war?
Look, this forum is about a video game. Nothing about a video game is ever going to rate as a truly meaningful issue. In the end it's just a video game. That said, a forum discussing unimportant issues can still yield insight into important ones. And I've seen a lot of things on this forum that makes me very concerned about how impatient and entitled our society has become. Does that mean I'm exempt from that category, not necessarily, but I am at least conscious of the issue so I can watch myself and try to ensure I don't end up falling into the same category. I think society would be better off if everyone did the same but I have no right to expect it of others, only myself.
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Is it just me or did the Ego in this place just double???
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Is this the part where I respond with something witty like "Yes, since you arrived?" to start a silly flame war?
Look, this forum is about a video game. Nothing about a video game is ever going to rate as a truly meaningful issue. In the end it's just a video game. That said, a forum discussing unimportant issues can still yield insight into important ones. And I've seen a lot of things on this forum that makes me very concerned about how impatient and entitled our society has become. Does that mean I'm exempt from that category, not necessarily, but I am at least conscious of the issue so I can watch myself and try to ensure I don't end up falling into the same category. I think society would be better off if everyone did the same but I have no right to expect it of others, only myself.
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As you will note - I did in fact edit and apologise for that comment being unfair.
As for societies issues - that's between you and society. As for this just being a 'video game' - true. But it's one that I and others such as yourself pay for not just for the initial copy but for the on going maintenance of. As such, we have a right to expect certain things in return for our money - - just as in the game we have a right to expect certain things in exchange for the level of effort we exert to achieve a goal.
At this point - I would say the costs of SG bases make them only marginally more successful than the Arenas which seem to be only useful as an extra place to buy Insps these days.
If we are impatient - it is because we feel as if the level of effort we've performed thus far should provide us with certain levels of satisfaction from the product which are not being met. That's a basic law of consumerism - that the customer dictates the direction of the product based on their input.
Your model of thinking is - we just need to try the product more. Okay - fair enough. But since I'm the one having to put forth the effort - and I'm the one having to test it out - yeah, I expect something better than what we've seen so far.
I'm not an economics major, but as far as I'm concerned, the consumer only has one right. To purchase, or not to purchase. If you don't like what is being sold (continuing access to CoH), then don't buy it.
Nowhere no how have I ever heard of consumers having a right to dictate how a product is created, or what that product's final form will be, unless you're talking about a commission.
CoH ain't no commission. It's a regular consumer product. You buy your access each month. If you don't like it, don't buy it. The fact that you -have- bought it in the past doesn't give you any more right to try and control its development.
Naturally, the developers will try to listen to their consumers so that enough of them continue to see CoH as a worthwhile purchase. But you aren't ENTITLED to any kind of input at all.
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As you will note - I did in fact edit and apologise for that comment being unfair.
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Noted and appreciated.
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As for societies issues - that's between you and society.
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I do not agree. MMOGs act as a microcosm society. One of the ways to dervive real value from MMOGs is to examine how people function under a set of constraints to see if the principles used to design those
Studies in game theory from the likes of Nobel Prize winner (and inspiration for the movie A Beautiful Mind) have had frar reaching implications for other aspects of society.
Besides, aren't we all part of society?
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As such, we have a right to expect certain things in return for our money
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Less than you might think. Your monthly fee buys you access to the servers, nothing more nothing less. Any other expectations you may have (not rights, they are not enshrined in any consitution I am aware of nor part of any religious doctrine that might enshrine them under freedom of religion rules) are overrided by the phrase "game content may change online" or whatever equivalent phrase appears on the box.
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just as in the game we have a right to expect certain things in exchange for the level of effort we exert to achieve a goal.
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And those can change at a moment's notice. You are using the word right. That's a very strong word to use. A right is something you are guarenteed by your government or possibly your religion. It is not the same as good customer service.
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That's a basic law of consumerism - that the customer dictates the direction of the product based on their input.
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Where can I find these "laws of consumerism"? Do they vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction? Or were they handed down written on stone tablets by some sort of Ferengi god?
Consumerism doesn't work nearly as well when applied to art. Art is created by artists. If, once created, it appeals to an audience it accrues financial value. But the financial value is not the sole determinant of the artisit design. Creative vision from the artist(s) determines that.
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Your model of thinking is - we just need to try the product more.
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Hmmm...no I don't think so. My model of thinking is:
The developers will design the game they choose to, for whatever reasons they do. If you decide you like the game, keep paying to play it. If not, don't.
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Okay - fair enough. But since I'm the one having to put forth the effort - and I'm the one having to test it out - yeah, I expect something better than what we've seen so far.
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You can expect whatever you like. But please don't confuse your expectations with your rights.
Oh yeah, and base building prices are out of whack. If bases mattered to me more they are out of whack enough I'd be rethinking continuing to pay to play too.
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I'm not an economics major, but as far as I'm concerned, the consumer only has one right. To purchase, or not to purchase. If you don't like what is being sold (continuing access to CoH), then don't buy it.
Nowhere no how have I ever heard of consumers having a right to dictate how a product is created, or what that product's final form will be, unless you're talking about a commission.
CoH ain't no commission. It's a regular consumer product. You buy your access each month. If you don't like it, don't buy it. The fact that you -have- bought it in the past doesn't give you any more right to try and control its development.
Naturally, the developers will try to listen to their consumers so that enough of them continue to see CoH as a worthwhile purchase. But you aren't ENTITLED to any kind of input at all.
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Something tells me you work in IT
heh.... I've seen this discussion or dare I say argument, on this forum probably 11 or 12 times now in casual forum browsing concerning many aspects of this game. Expectations, rights, economics, "quit if you don't like it".
Repeatedly the developers have asked for feedback on the forum. As long as it is feedback delivered in a respectful manner, even if what is asked is not possible, it is still ok to ask for change. Our group of 4 is actually maintaining a respectable non-raidable base. We do wish we had quite a few more things. Here is my ultimate reason why I think they are deserved us. By the best of my calculations, at least 1 of us if not all of us will make it to 50 with our mains and we will still not have access to serveral items in the base. If our SG/VG membership had not made so many alts we would all easily be 40 by now, with the same incomplete base.
We wouldn't mind reasonably waiting till low 40s to get all the basics in the base, but when we see that we will probably hit the end game and still not have our goals met, then it is hard to be patient for something we will never get. All 4 of us agree we like our small group and really at this point, even if one of us desired a raidable SG, we wouldn't leave the others behind. So our "moral" choice in essence has us stuck.
As to the poster concerned for our society. Going into this game with our friend group in mind, we thought 4 or 5 members could make a nice base. We find out we can't, but we feel obligated to stay committed to our friends. So that being said, what is the answer? Abandon our friends for a larger SG? Abandon the game to spend money elsewhere which also causes us to abandon our friends (as related to the game, not ending friendships here)?
I figure the socially right thing to do is voice our grievances, to the devs where the the devs have asked us to, and see if we can affect change before giving up.
So if that isn't hard work and socially healthy, thoughtful and/or considerate, I don't know what is.
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I'm not an economics major, but as far as I'm concerned, the consumer only has one right. To purchase, or not to purchase. If you don't like what is being sold (continuing access to CoH), then don't buy it.
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Do other consumers have the right to tell said consumers to just shut up and go away?
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Something tells me you work in IT
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Could it be his whole "screw the customer" attitude?
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As to the poster concerned for our society. Going into this game with our friend group in mind, we thought 4 or 5 members could make a nice base. We find out we can't, but we feel obligated to stay committed to our friends. So that being said, what is the answer? Abandon our friends for a larger SG? Abandon the game to spend money elsewhere which also causes us to abandon our friends (as related to the game, not ending friendships here)?
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Possible answers:
-Don't make a base
-Wait for apartments, or at least more details on howmany people will be able to share one
-Accept that you will probably be able to make a base of some functionality before you reach the point where weekly rent = weekly prestige income
-Move all the members of your SG to another en masse (I've suggested in the past that SGs be able to merge and keep their earned prestige)
-Move all the members of your SG to another game en masse (I've heard of people doing it in other games)
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I figure the socially right thing to do is voice our grievances, to the devs where the the devs have asked us to, and see if we can affect change before giving up.
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Fair enough. The key difference here is you are voicing greivances whereas many people come to these boards to make demands.
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So if that isn't hard work and socially healthy, thoughtful and/or considerate, I don't know what is.
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I donb't see how it's hard work to type up a message; but I agree on the other points.
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Now we are at a point where we want to buy SO's, but you have to make that choice between earning prestige for the group or earning infamy for yourself. It makes no sense. I would think that the higher level characters, as high powered representatives of their SG, should be earning more prestige than anyone else. All this system does is discourage people from playing in SG mode later on. And then it adds guilt to it!
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Yes this is the part I don't understand. The logic is bass-ackwards.
People keep saying that the "lose inf for prestige after 25" business was designed to lower influence (or infamy -- same difference). But that's not what it does. People at level 25 are usually (unless they've been in perma-debt on purpose or doing lots of exemplaring) really, really strapped for inf. They can't afford their enhancements even with full influence earned, let alone dropping it by 10+% over time. So what happens? People don't stay in SG mode and gain less influence... they go OUT of SG mode, so influence isn't being earned at a lower rate. Instead, prestige is being earned more slowly.
Thus, the system is not accomplishing the stated desired effect, which is to lower the rate of inf gain.
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When a game goes from being fun to being work, you can count on seeing people leave. The bases simply don't provide enough reward for the amount of effort put into them.
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I agree with this.
One thing people also haven't mentioned, but I will: the Base/SG/VG system discourages allowing alts on the same team. If you really want to earn max prestige at max rate, you want 75 different people on your SG. Why? Because you can only play one character at a time. A 75-character SG with 10 people each playing 7 or 8 alts, is only going to earn prestige at roughly the rate of a 10-man SG with no alts, because you can't play multiple characters at once. So not only are they, because of how it works, effectively pushing big groups, but they're also pushing people to limit groups to 1 character per player, etc.... so they're really pushing HUGE groups.
That's really a shame... I see no reason why a 5-man SG shouldn't have a functional base. Small, sure... but functional. The way things are now, you can only have a small NON-functional base in a reasonable time frame.
F
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[ People at level 25 are usually (unless they've been in perma-debt on purpose or doing lots of exemplaring) really, really strapped for inf. They can't afford their enhancements even with full influence earned, let alone dropping it by 10+% over time.
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Speaking from a CoH perspective this is true... BUT... once you get over the hump into your 30s prestige is never an issue again.
In CoV if wasnt really an issue. All it meant was buying a few enhancements a few missions later as oppsoed to updating them all at 27 and 32
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Yes this is the part I don't understand. The logic is bass-ackwards.
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Any other design would mean it would be better to have higher level characters in an SG than lower level characters. That was something the developers have stated they designed the system specifically to avoid. They want it to be just as valueable to an SG to invite a level 1 member as a level 50 member.
Once you take that goal into account it's a brilliant design.
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People at level 25 are usually (unless they've been in perma-debt on purpose or doing lots of exemplaring) really, really strapped for inf.
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Actually people at level 25 are usually given a ton of INF from a higher level toon/alt. At least in CoH that's been my experience and I think it will be the same in a few months in CoV. In fact, the current prestiuge system encourages higher level toons to stay out of SG mode and earn INF for lower level members so that those lower level members can stay in SG mode. Another benefit of the present design: it encourages inter-dependency within SGs.
And let's not get into the entire issue of whether people are actually "really strapped for INF" or simply have very high expectations as to how many SOs they should be able to afford by level 25.
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One thing people also haven't mentioned, but I will: the Base/SG/VG system discourages allowing alts on the same team. If you really want to earn max prestige at max rate, you want 75 different people on your SG. Why? Because you can only play one character at a time. A 75-character SG with 10 people each playing 7 or 8 alts, is only going to earn prestige at roughly the rate of a 10-man SG with no alts, because you can't play multiple characters at once.
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Ok, even if we assume that SGs can always find 75 players willing to join, it's not a tough matter to swap your alts in and out of the SG. It just takes a leader being online.
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That's really a shame... I see no reason why a 5-man SG shouldn't have a functional base.
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Hence why they announced they will introduce something for smaller SGs in the near future.
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Small, sure... but functional. The way things are now, you can only have a small NON-functional base in a reasonable time frame.
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Runs counter to anecdotal evidence I have experienced. Even smaller groups seem able to get the PvE basics in a reasonable time frame. This is aided by the ability to sell back items at 100% value.
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Any other design would mean it would be better to have higher level characters in an SG than lower level characters. That was something the developers have stated they designed the system specifically to avoid. They want it to be just as valueable to an SG to invite a level 1 member as a level 50 member.
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This explains why prestige earned per mission or per villain is about the same for level 1 and level 50. I have no problem with this.
It doesn't explain why a level 25 should have to choose Inf *or* Prestige, and a level 1 shouldn't. That actually makes lower levels potentially more valuable, as there is no reason to go out of SG mode until level 25, but there is after that.
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Actually people at level 25 are usually given a ton of INF from a higher level toon/alt. At least in CoH that's been my experience and I think it will be the same in a few months in CoV.
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It's not clear to me that the design should be implemented from the standpoint of assuming that there are level 40+ "patrons" for every SG member who needs influence.
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In fact, the current prestiuge system encourages higher level toons to stay out of SG mode and earn INF for lower level members so that those lower level members can stay in SG mode. Another benefit of the present design: it encourages inter-dependency within SGs.
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Again, only assuming you have a large # of high level patrons as bankrollers. I have not seen this to be the case in my SGs (Hero, or villain). The highest member of the villain group right now is 28 and thus more strapped for "cash" than anyone else. Everyone's primary character is now level 25 or higher and most of us have (guilty though we feel) gone out of SG mode. This makes those characters *less* valuable to the team than some newbie who is level 2. We may have enough to be super-rich by 40, but that's going to be a long grind, and by the calculations of the 28 (who has an MBA and is good at crunching numbers) he will be about level 34 or so (out of 40) before the enhancement drops and XP gain rate and XP needed to level are such, that he will be able to go back into SG mode. That's 9 levels of him being unable to earn prestige -- him, and every other one of the mains in the SG.
The point here is that, yes, numerically over time it may work, but in real terms... you're talking months and months before players have enough influence to start bankrolling each other, unless you're talking about hardcore powergamers, which I and my SG friends are not. And the question remains, should this be a deliberate design element -- the assumption of higher level uber-characters to bankroll the newbies.
And how does this help encourage newbies anyway, since, for example, my level 50 can run missions faster and with less risk than, say, my level 10, and will still, in the long run, rack up more prestige per hour... meaning that once you have a bunch of level 50s, it's actually smarter to just let them churn prestige, than having some level 28s that need to be bankrolled *or* lowbies in the single-digit levels.
I understand their goals. I do not agree that their design is matching those goals. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.
F
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Actually people at level 25 are usually given a ton of INF from a higher level toon/alt. At least in CoH that's been my experience and I think it will be the same in a few months in CoV.
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Really.... I make just enough selling enhancemnts to do the upgrades....
Since I am in SG there is no extra prestige like there would be if I wasnt in SG mode
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If you get raided at some point ALOT of that work can be thrown out the window when your gens, control, defeneses get destroyed.
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Not everything blown up during a raid stays blown up afterwards. A percentage of the items are automatically fixed. This percentage can be improved by building certain aux items for the workshop.
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I know this violates the "keep the players in the dark" policy...but what is that percentage?
If there's a 75% chance of a destroyed object surviving, that's still going to hurt, but it's worth considering. If there's a 5% chance of a destroyed object surviving--I'll never contribute my prestige to a SG that will waste it by being raidable.
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I haven't thought about base raids much except that I'd like to experience one and was wondering why there werent more. You pretty much summed that up. Sounds like bases/items/raids needs some balance.
Wow, Thats a lot of money in a monthly fee.
We began our very modest VG about 2 months ago. It consists of about 7 people, most of them casual players, all friends.
We finally got just enough Prestige in those 2 months to make a base, turn on the lights, fire up a computer and build a worktable.
Then, I made the mistake of making something from salvage: a Holodisplay! It generates 25 points of control.
To place the thing will cost 97k. A terminal costs only 30k and generates 10 control. What the heck is that about?
To top it off, my base Prestige dropped to -23k. I never even placed it!
Since then, I have started searching for explanation on how to use the salvage items (or even why). Is there any reason for a non-raiding base to do ANYTHING with salvage?
We probably will not ever have enough Prestige to build a raidable base ; I'll just roll up a toon and join a mega-VG for that - Hooray! 
So: can we sell this stuff? can we destroy it? WHAT CAN WE DO WITH IT?
"No on moves unless I say so!" Minde Bender 50th LVL Mind/Empath
And a sack of others at 50th
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Is there any reason for a non-raiding base to do ANYTHING with salvage?
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Not really... only "useful
" items are the telepads and the medical stuff. everything else is related to power, control and defense. If you dont add defense then you wont need more power and control..
Once you get the telepads in and a med bay set up you are basically thru with base building unless you just want to add rooms to have imagimary tea parties in.
That sort of illustrates another important point. You could have a 75 member group that only has about 10 people total that are what you would really call active as in play daily or at least every other day. In that case you wouldn't be at such a great advantage then either, since you only for a bonus for those first 15 members, it's not like getting a bonus for each and every member. Also, sometimes even though you ask member and explain what the prestige is for you can't force them to play on sg mode.