I did some math, the !3.33% endurance reduction is Exactly enough to make up the difference between the pre ED 6 slot stamina and Quick recovery and the post ED 3 slot stamina and QR. In the end those without stamina or QR make out better than before ED those with Stamina and QR will have no change in end usage due to the reduction in End recovery being equal to the reduction in end usage.
my powers aren't going to be reduced by anything, other than 100% across the board. i mean, with a cancelled account comes no powers, right?
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, if you put END REDUX in those 2 or 3 slots, your DPE will be BETTER.
Let's say I have an attack today hat does 100 HP with a 2 second animation, 8 second recharge, and costing 10 END
Today I have it 6 slotted for DMG so I get 300 HP in 10 seconds for 10 end
OR
30 DPS and 30 DPE
Post ED it's going to do 210 HP in 10 seconds for 10*(1-.133) = 8.67 END
OR
21 DPS and 24.22 DPE
Post ED with 4 DMG, 2 END it's going to be 200 HP in 10 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.66) = 5.22 END
OR
20 DPS and 38.3 DPE
Post ED with 4 DMG, 1 RECH, 1 END it's going to be 200 HP in (2+8/(1+.33))=8 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.33) = 6.5 END
OR
25 DPS and 30 DPE
Post ED with 3 DMG, 2 RECH, 1 END it's going to be 195 HP in (2+8/(1+.66))=6.8 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.33) = 6.5 END
OR
28.6 DPS and 30 DPE
Almost no change IF properly slotted.
But, wait a minute, most people slot 1 ACC + 5 DMG how does that work out?
Today I have it 1 ACC + 5 DMG so I get 267 HP in 10 seconds for 10 end
OR
26.7 DPS and 26.7 DPE
Post ED with 3 DMG, 1 ACC, 1 RECH, 1 END it's going to be 195 HP in (2+8/(1+.33))=8 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.33) = 6.5 END
OR
25 DPS and 30 DPE <--Better DPE than today, retaining 94% of my DPS
Post ED with 3 DMG, 1 ACC, 2 RECH it's going to be 195 HP in (2+8/(1+.66))=6.8 seconds for 10*(1-.133) = 8.67 END
OR
28.6 DPS and 24.22 DPE <--Better DPS than today, retaining 90% of my DPE
You can see where they think the levelling speed will remain the same and such under their new plan.
As you alluded to, the problem with thier plan is not that people will be cut in power by 1/3. It's that the only diversity you will see is people slotting in recharge and end redux, all the other enhancers will stay on the shelf collecting dust, just as they did before. People today have a choice to get the max DPS by NOT slotting 1+5, the best DPE by not slotting 1 + 5 and the best compromise between the two by slotting 1+5. What we have today is actually MORE diverse than the new plan.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just a passing observation. If a player has perma hasten pre-ED isn't his DPS with 5 - 6 damage possibly higher than a post-ED with 2 recharge and 3 damage?
Just a thought.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, if you put END REDUX in those 2 or 3 slots, your DPE will be BETTER.
Let's say I have an attack today hat does 100 HP with a 2 second animation, 8 second recharge, and costing 10 END
Today I have it 6 slotted for DMG so I get 300 HP in 10 seconds for 10 end
OR
30 DPS and 30 DPE
Post ED it's going to do 210 HP in 10 seconds for 10*(1-.133) = 8.67 END
OR
21 DPS and 24.22 DPE
Post ED with 4 DMG, 2 END it's going to be 200 HP in 10 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.66) = 5.22 END
OR
20 DPS and 38.3 DPE
Post ED with 4 DMG, 1 RECH, 1 END it's going to be 200 HP in (2+8/(1+.33))=8 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.33) = 6.5 END
OR
25 DPS and 30 DPE
Post ED with 3 DMG, 2 RECH, 1 END it's going to be 195 HP in (2+8/(1+.66))=6.8 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.33) = 6.5 END
OR
28.6 DPS and 30 DPE
Almost no change IF properly slotted.
But, wait a minute, most people slot 1 ACC + 5 DMG how does that work out?
Today I have it 1 ACC + 5 DMG so I get 267 HP in 10 seconds for 10 end
OR
26.7 DPS and 26.7 DPE
Post ED with 3 DMG, 1 ACC, 1 RECH, 1 END it's going to be 195 HP in (2+8/(1+.33))=8 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.33) = 6.5 END
OR
25 DPS and 30 DPE <--Better DPE than today, retaining 94% of my DPS
Post ED with 3 DMG, 1 ACC, 2 RECH it's going to be 195 HP in (2+8/(1+.66))=6.8 seconds for 10*(1-.133) = 8.67 END
OR
28.6 DPS and 24.22 DPE <--Better DPS than today, retaining 90% of my DPE
You can see where they think the levelling speed will remain the same and such under their new plan.
As you alluded to, the problem with thier plan is not that people will be cut in power by 1/3. It's that the only diversity you will see is people slotting in recharge and end redux, all the other enhancers will stay on the shelf collecting dust, just as they did before. People today have a choice to get the max DPS by NOT slotting 1+5, the best DPE by not slotting 1 + 5 and the best compromise between the two by slotting 1+5. What we have today is actually MORE diverse than the new plan.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just a passing observation. If a player has perma hasten pre-ED isn't his DPS with 5 - 6 damage possibly higher than a post-ED with 2 recharge and 3 damage?
Just a thought.
[/ QUOTE ]
and besides if you have enough attack powers, like scrappers and blasters should have, dps and dpe are null and void, because of the useage of powers allow the recharge by itself i know my blaster can dish out enough attacks for my sniper blast 2 or 3 times without stopping, except for endurance drain than snipe gives me as a resut of being hit before snipe goes off
That's the least you can do to make up for Enhancement Dysfunction. I mean Enhantile Diversification...um...yeah. Don't try to fool us. ED does not now stand for endurance discount.
:-P
Total Focus is a hold, right?
ED & ED -The lucky number 13 huh? Stamnia has been nerfed since day 1.. I will take this pea-shooter buff and attack the city of villains wholesale!
[ QUOTE ]
Good fix for the problems ED created with endurance. Now fix every other problem ED has created, and you will have undone the mess.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just a passing observation. If a player has perma hasten pre-ED isn't his DPS with 5 - 6 damage possibly higher than a post-ED with 2 recharge and 3 damage?
Just a thought.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely true, went over that in another thread and Hasten becomes redundant and a hair useless if you've slotted in 1-2 RECH per power. I'm sure the devs consider this a good thing and I'm not sure I blame them.
Hasten has become a long-timer fixer post-ED with minimal utility post SOs (previous, it's still a big DPS boost). And they did want it and stamina to be less appealing, so I'm sure they're giddy.
They should make the long timers shorter now, though. They were balanced for full SOs and perma-hasten.
[ QUOTE ]
and besides if you have enough attack powers, like scrappers and blasters should have, dps and dpe are null and void, because of the useage of powers allow the recharge by itself i know my blaster can dish out enough attacks for my sniper blast 2 or 3 times without stopping, except for endurance drain than snipe gives me as a resut of being hit before snipe goes off
[/ QUOTE ]
You still get to use your strongest attacks more often, which gives you better DPS. If you can take Ice Bolt out of your attack chain and still have a full attack chain, you've boosted your DPS up. And freed a power slot to get something else with.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, if you put END REDUX in those 2 or 3 slots, your DPE will be BETTER.
[/ QUOTE ]
For attacks. For those who run on toggles, the nerf to stamina will be a major hit. My bubbler is a toggle fiend, he already has 2 endredux in all his toggles, and still doesn't have the endurance to fight much. ED will *cripple* him.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
I know this has been said, but it needs to be harped on constantly...
Reduction in end is great for attacks to compensate for ED. Slot in some recgarge and reduced end lets you stay at some relative damage levels.
But this DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR DEFENSES WHICH ARE GETTING REAMED BY ED!
6 Slotted defenese are what it takes to be the tanker or a durable scrapper. Reduced End costs do NOTHING to compensate for the GIGANTIC defense/resist nerf!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that if you remove a third of a powers "umpf" (for instance 3 SO's from a damage power)...then take out a third of Stamina's endurance recovery ability...
...you're gonna have alot of tired heroes and the 13.3% discount isnt gonna make up for it.
I guess end cost is what the extra slots are for. Just doesnt sound very diverse to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, if you put END REDUX in those 2 or 3 slots, your DPE will be BETTER.
Let's say I have an attack today hat does 100 HP with a 2 second animation, 8 second recharge, and costing 10 END
Today I have it 6 slotted for DMG so I get 300 HP in 10 seconds for 10 end
OR
30 DPS and 30 DPE
Post ED it's going to do 210 HP in 10 seconds for 10*(1-.133) = 8.67 END
OR
21 DPS and 24.22 DPE
Post ED with 4 DMG, 2 END it's going to be 200 HP in 10 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.66) = 5.22 END
OR
20 DPS and 38.3 DPE
Post ED with 4 DMG, 1 RECH, 1 END it's going to be 200 HP in (2+8/(1+.33))=8 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.33) = 6.5 END
OR
25 DPS and 30 DPE
Post ED with 3 DMG, 2 RECH, 1 END it's going to be 195 HP in (2+8/(1+.66))=6.8 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.33) = 6.5 END
OR
28.6 DPS and 30 DPE
Almost no change IF properly slotted.
But, wait a minute, most people slot 1 ACC + 5 DMG how does that work out?
Today I have it 1 ACC + 5 DMG so I get 267 HP in 10 seconds for 10 end
OR
26.7 DPS and 26.7 DPE
Post ED with 3 DMG, 1 ACC, 1 RECH, 1 END it's going to be 195 HP in (2+8/(1+.33))=8 seconds for (10*(1-.133))/(1+.33) = 6.5 END
OR
25 DPS and 30 DPE <--Better DPE than today, retaining 94% of my DPS
Post ED with 3 DMG, 1 ACC, 2 RECH it's going to be 195 HP in (2+8/(1+.66))=6.8 seconds for 10*(1-.133) = 8.67 END
OR
28.6 DPS and 24.22 DPE <--Better DPS than today, retaining 90% of my DPE
You can see where they think the levelling speed will remain the same and such under their new plan.
[/ QUOTE ]
When the ED patch hits CoH, will there be a slide rule included?
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just a passing observation. If a player has perma hasten pre-ED isn't his DPS with 5 - 6 damage possibly higher than a post-ED with 2 recharge and 3 damage?
Just a thought.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely true, went over that in another thread and Hasten becomes redundant and a hair useless if you've slotted in 1-2 RECH per power. I'm sure the devs consider this a good thing and I'm not sure I blame them.
Hasten has become a long-timer fixer post-ED with minimal utility post SOs (previous, it's still a big DPS boost). And they did want it and stamina to be less appealing, so I'm sure they're giddy.
They should make the long timers shorter now, though. They were balanced for full SOs and perma-hasten.
[/ QUOTE ]
If Statesman is to be believed, the long timers were also balanced with ED in mind. So they're here to stay. Officially. For now.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I'm in full agreement with you, Antic. I'd like to read some feedback from a dev for how they will correct this problem.
TrueHero
[ QUOTE ]
When the ED patch hits CoH, will there be a slide rule included?
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL.
This is SUCH a fair criticism of ED. The devs have shot for simplicity in so many things so you don't need to see numbers to play. And yet, ED is so complex that they finally put numbers in the interface.
ED is cruel to casual players, complex, confusing and penalizing to simplistic slotting.
Ironic given it was put in (in part) to normalize the min/maxxers with the casual players.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just a passing observation. If a player has perma hasten pre-ED isn't his DPS with 5 - 6 damage possibly higher than a post-ED with 2 recharge and 3 damage?
Just a thought.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely true, went over that in another thread and Hasten becomes redundant and a hair useless if you've slotted in 1-2 RECH per power. I'm sure the devs consider this a good thing and I'm not sure I blame them.
Hasten has become a long-timer fixer post-ED with minimal utility post SOs (previous, it's still a big DPS boost). And they did want it and stamina to be less appealing, so I'm sure they're giddy.
They should make the long timers shorter now, though. They were balanced for full SOs and perma-hasten.
[/ QUOTE ]
If Statesman is to be believed, the long timers were also balanced with ED in mind. So they're here to stay. Officially. For now.
[/ QUOTE ]
AAAAARGH! Say it ain't so.
Linky please.
Wait.. this mean Stamina is getting like a 100% recharge hit due to bad ED... and a 13% reduction in costs from the good ED... Stamina is still gonna suck worse than ever huh?
City (of Tired) Heroes 
Well, the thing about the Endurance discount is that it is basically an admission by the devs that Recharge Enhancement is inferior to Damage Enhancement. If you just replace Damage with Recharge one to one, you end up paying more in Endurance. So the discount is basically covering up the problem.
The thing about the 3 Damage, 1 Recharge, 1 Endurance example one poster gave is that it takes advantage of the fact that different types of Enhancement stack better than the same type. For more than one Recharge, that advantage goes down. So you are stuck with the choice of balancing Recharge with Endurance, trading two Enhancements for one, or accepting the higher End cost.
The folks like me, who like efficient builds, might actually be able to get something out of the greater leeway in slotting Endurance, as the costs will probably be balanced with extra Recharges in mind. But it neither solves the underlying problem of Damage increasing DPS and DPE, and Recharge and Endurance increasing only one of them, nor gives a huge advantage to people who want to slot for efficiency since everyone will basically be efficient.
I probably should have asked this earlier, but why can't Damage just increase your Endurance cost, like Recharge? Then the most damaging combination will still be 1 Acc 5 Dam, but the End costs will be so great that you'll be better off adding some End Enhancers instead. You can deal the greater damage, if you're willing to exhaust yourself in the first couple of shots.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, the thing about the Endurance discount is that it is basically an admission by the devs that Recharge Enhancement is inferior to Damage Enhancement. If you just replace Damage with Recharge one to one, you end up paying more in Endurance. So the discount is basically covering up the problem.
The thing about the 3 Damage, 1 Recharge, 1 Endurance example one poster gave is that it takes advantage of the fact that different types of Enhancement stack better than the same type. For more than one Recharge, that advantage goes down. So you are stuck with the choice of balancing Recharge with Endurance, trading two Enhancements for one, or accepting the higher End cost.
The folks like me, who like efficient builds, might actually be able to get something out of the greater leeway in slotting Endurance, as the costs will probably be balanced with extra Recharges in mind. But it neither solves the underlying problem of Damage increasing DPS and DPE, and Recharge and Endurance increasing only one of them, nor gives a huge advantage to people who want to slot for efficiency since everyone will basically be efficient.
I probably should have asked this earlier, but why can't Damage just increase your Endurance cost, like Recharge? Then the most damaging combination will still be 1 Acc 5 Dam, but the End costs will be so great that you'll be better off adding some End Enhancers instead. You can deal the greater damage, if you're willing to exhaust yourself in the first couple of shots.
[/ QUOTE ]
While that works in the microcosmic view of making the damage enhancer less appealing to people who pay attention to both DPS and DPE, it also keeps the distance between the minimum damage and maximum damage as large as it is today - so they have to continue to balance foes to be able to withstand the 3x bursts that 6 damage SOs can produce today instead of the 2.1x bursts that they produce under ED. Which will leave MOB balancing just as hard as it ever was.
Now, here's the ugly little truth about the statement I just made, which is, essentially, a defense of the devs vision...
It all falls apart if BUFFs and INSPIRATIONs aren't ALSO subject to diminishing returns. Take your 2.1x guy, give him a nice Fulcrum Shift, and you STILL have to code those MOBs to be able to take 3x, 4x, even 5x burst damage.
You may recall Statesman's most recent promise of no more major nerfs, the one he made AFTER ED was announced. I just don't see how it could be true without making the sacrifices we're making for ED useless. Either Buffs and Inspirations will get diminishing returns, too, or all of this pain is meaningless.
This happy though brought to you by Pilcrow.
[ QUOTE ]
It all falls apart if BUFFs and INSPIRATIONs aren't ALSO subject to diminishing returns. Take your 2.1x guy, give him a nice Fulcrum Shift, and you STILL have to code those MOBs to be able to take 3x, 4x, even 5x burst damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I think it was somewhat the point to make buffs/inspirations that much more appealing..
So city of skittles then? Playing as a tanker pre ED who eats the candies as fast as possible to keep up defence, damage resist, end, acc, dam I can only imagine post ED candy eating. Soon we will be City of Tubbies and the tailors will have to start ordering in some plus sizes to keep up with the weight gain.
Soon will be able to test all this, so let's see what happens. IJ
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It all falls apart if BUFFs and INSPIRATIONs aren't ALSO subject to diminishing returns. Take your 2.1x guy, give him a nice Fulcrum Shift, and you STILL have to code those MOBs to be able to take 3x, 4x, even 5x burst damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I think it was somewhat the point to make buffs/inspirations that much more appealing..
[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly part of the motive, only it doesn't help them to balance the MOBs.
[ QUOTE ]
Clearly part of the motive, only it doesn't help them to balance the MOBs.
[/ QUOTE ]
How exactly will the ability to pop an insane amount of reds and then run back to the contact to buy more to do it again make it hard to balance the mobs? Sounds like you've slowed yourself down plenty.
Kinetics primary means of defending is by allowing your teammates to kill faster. With MOBs being more spaced and in smaller groups this power becomes easily managable on how big a boost it will provide. If they actually didn't want you to be able to reach the caps they have currently set then they wouldn't have set them so high to begin with. They simply want it to be difficult to do so.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Clearly part of the motive, only it doesn't help them to balance the MOBs.
[/ QUOTE ]
How exactly will the ability to pop an insane amount of reds and then run back to the contact to buy more to do it again make it hard to balance the mobs? Sounds like you've slowed yourself down plenty.
Kinetics primary means of defending is by allowing your teammates to kill faster. With MOBs being more spaced and in smaller groups this power becomes easily managable on how big a boost it will provide. If they actually didn't want you to be able to reach the caps they have currently set then they wouldn't have set them so high to begin with. They simply want it to be difficult to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, what's stopping you from bringing another Kinetics Defender? And another?
Or a Kinetics Defender and Controller?
Sigh.
Moving both Damage and Recharge to Schedule "B" does everything that the Devs want ED to do, and doesn't do many of the things Players don't like about ED. (Travel powers not able to be 6-slotted, etc)
But I suppose Dev solutions aren't allowed to make sense...
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
I don't think this is primarily for stamina people....I think it makes the non-stamina game that much more viable.
As for ED itself.
I'd like to see only DMG, Recharge, end recovery, and end drain affected by ED. Those seem to be the major abuseables.
This would leave def/res the same as it is now...and healing wouldn't be affected either.
Recharges for powers such as maybe RA should be looked at with no perma-hasten in mind.