Issue 4 Changes for Gravity - Official Thread
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2005-03-22 14:26 in Developers' Corner
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You know... now that i think about... I might've just jumped at the opportunity to brag a little. I do believe Gravity as a whole has an AoE control gap, but I'm often oblivious to it because of my secondary (which, btw, I chose for concept 10 months ago. I knew nothing of any 'control' issues back then). My only point I have, i suppose, is that Gravity can do wonderous things... but it needs outside support to do it. Unlike some of the other Primaries that could almost ignore thier secondaries to pull off what we do solo-wise.
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Bingo.
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I guess the best judge of the relative usefulness of Detention Field vs Dimension Shift would be a Grav/FF Controller. Which power would a Grav/FF rather have?
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Detention Field all the way.
Best solution has already been proposed, but here it is again:
Propel: single target: foe knockback, high (superior? moderate?) damage, AoE disorient
Wormhole: leave as is in i3
So only the single target gets knocked and damaged. Target and the guys near him get disoriented. As long as with a bit of slotting we can perma-disorient an even-con, I'd be one heck of a happy grav. We're not looking at a long-term perma-disorient from propel, the end. cost sees to that nicely.
This gives the grav. controllers their needed AoE in the level range they need it, closes the evil control gap, doesn't take away from the grav controllers already using propel as a damage source (either leave as is in i3 or a slight boost) and doesn't interfere with the few gravs who use dim. shift and wormhole as they are.
If anyone would be unhappy with that proposal, please say so.
(actually I would be a bit miffed because I've used all my respec's and don't have propel, but c'est la vie)
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Best solution has already been proposed, but here it is again:
Propel: single target: foe knockback, high (superior? moderate?) damage, AoE disorient
Wormhole: leave as is in i3
So only the single target gets knocked and damaged. Target and the guys near him get disoriented. As long as with a bit of slotting we can perma-disorient an even-con, I'd be one heck of a happy grav. We're not looking at a long-term perma-disorient from propel, the end. cost sees to that nicely.
This gives the grav. controllers their needed AoE in the level range they need it, closes the evil control gap, doesn't take away from the grav controllers already using propel as a damage source (either leave as is in i3 or a slight boost) and doesn't interfere with the few gravs who use dim. shift and wormhole as they are.
If anyone would be unhappy with that proposal, please say so.
(actually I would be a bit miffed because I've used all my respec's and don't have propel, but c'est la vie)
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I'd like this solution over modifying wormhole too.
Just so happens I'm in the same boat of not having any respecs left either. But I've been trying to reason out why we should get more respecs as well.
Upsen.
Regarding the propel idea:
Yeah, sure. This proposal could address the control gap.
But I'd still prefer they increase the disorient duration on test and use the new wormhole from there. Why? It gives us major flair. And it encourages us to continue playing tactically instead of turning gravity into a brute-force set.
My (and others) main objection to the wormhole change is it removes the existing wormhole - which some of us quite like.
That and it doesn't address the control gap issue until level 26, where all other controllers have a method of area control that is combat-friendly by level 12.
I'd suggest changing propel to the new wormhole, giving it a shorter range and keeping the old wormhole as it is, but that'd be stepping on the toes of people who like the current propel. The new wormhole is kinda fun, but it doesn't (for me) provide the same flexibility as the old wormhole does.
This is a substantial change to a power that isn't broken and allows us to do something very few other controllers can - remove pesky enemies that don't react to being held/stunned and cannot be knocked, or specifically place a single enemy where we want them - without agro-ing the enemies they've just run next to.
I for one will be lobbying for additional respec's if this goes ahead. I didn't anticipate that I should have to save my respec's for my powerset shifting under me.
I really like this idea since it gives someone the choice to slot propel with damage or disorient.
I first liked WH 2.0 and how I could move whole groups around. But the truth is I miss the 1.0 version and how much I use it during combat. All 1.0 really needs is a faster activation time and optional knockback to make it killer.
Here is an off idea for DS. What if those who are shifted are unable to regenerate health or endurance. Basicly when they came back from being shifted they would still be at the same point in the battle that they left.
What makes Dimension Shift dangerous to use is that mobs phase back into synch with their powers well-recharged. They're prone to alpha-strike you, potentially for the second time. If you're going to talk about freezing health and endurance regen, freeze power recharge too. Or you could do what the rest of us do--avoid using the power like the plague.
I will also miss wormhole v1.0 if the change occurs. But you know, we've been making lemonade out of lemons for quite some time. We'll adjust, find great uses for it, and eventually be happy about it.
That being said, it would be really, really cool to get both versions! This would also enable us to stack disorients on bosses to overcome mag resistance when GDF is busy recharging. I'd give up propel or dimension shift for that. Assuming the disorient duration is worth anything. . ..
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Best solution has already been proposed, but here it is again:
Propel: single target: foe knockback, high (superior? moderate?) damage, AoE disorient
Wormhole: leave as is in i3
So only the single target gets knocked and damaged. Target and the guys near him get disoriented. As long as with a bit of slotting we can perma-disorient an even-con, I'd be one heck of a happy grav. We're not looking at a long-term perma-disorient from propel, the end. cost sees to that nicely.
This gives the grav. controllers their needed AoE in the level range they need it, closes the evil control gap, doesn't take away from the grav controllers already using propel as a damage source (either leave as is in i3 or a slight boost) and doesn't interfere with the few gravs who use dim. shift and wormhole as they are.
If anyone would be unhappy with that proposal, please say so.
(actually I would be a bit miffed because I've used all my respec's and don't have propel, but c'est la vie)
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/agree
"Looks like we arrived in the nick of time. What does that make us?"
"Big damn heroes, sir."
"Ain't we just."
-Mal & Zoe, "Firefly"
The thing with Gravity is that there are so many possibilities for changing powers many of which are all actually good ideas. The problem is to narrow down which changes will provide the A) Most balance B) Satisfy the majority and C) Close the control gap.
This thread alone contains the following:
Propel: v1 Keep I4 damage but lower the animation time
v2: Keep the I4 single target damage / knock back effect, but make it an AoE disorient from the original target.
v3. Keep the pre I4 damange, lower the animation time to match Lift, making it a single target kock back version of lift.
v4. Get rid of all damange and make it an AoE disorient.
Dimension Shift: v1. Make it an AoE disorient
v2 Make it a single target phase
v3 Make it an AoE lift w/ no damange - like Ice slick from Ice Control.
v4 Keep it the same
Worm Hole: v1 Keep the pre I4 version
v2 Keep the pre I4 version, but get rid of the knock back and lower the animation time
v3 Keep the new I4 veriosn, but increase the base disorient time, stop the stringing effect, get rid of the knock back, and lower the recharge time a little bit.
IMOHP, the following seems the best way over all:
Propel v2
Dimension Shift v4
Worm Hole v2
The only problem I see with the v2 of Propel is the animation time, its way to long.
Now there is a way to help the control gap, by using the AoE disorient of propel, with Crushing field. There is still the single target damange capability of propel. DS still exists for those that like to use it. The original worm hole is back for those that like the single target utiltiy it has, along with the appropriate changes to make it a bit for friendly to the user.
/agree w/ last two
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The thing with Gravity is that there are so many possibilities for changing powers many of which are all actually good ideas. The problem is to narrow down which changes will provide the A) Most balance B) Satisfy the majority and C) Close the control gap.
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Ding ding ding! 
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This thread alone contains the following:
Propel: v1 Keep I4 damage but lower the animation time
v2: Keep the I4 single target damage / knock back effect, but make it an AoE disorient from the original target.
v3. Keep the pre I4 damange, lower the animation time to match Lift, making it a single target kock back version of lift.
v4. Get rid of all damange and make it an AoE disorient.
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v5. Keep the pre-I4 damage, KB, & animation time; but make it a cone effect.
BTW, I hate v4. It's mere existence fills me with rage and spite.
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Dimension Shift: v1. Make it an AoE disorient
v2 Make it a single target phase
v3 Make it an AoE lift w/ no damange - like Ice slick from Ice Control.
v4 Keep it the same
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v1 and v3 are each completely different from what it is now. The power would have to be renamed. That being said, Yay for v3.
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Worm Hole: v1 Keep the pre I4 version
v2 Keep the pre I4 version, but get rid of the knock back and lower the animation time
v3 Keep the new I4 veriosn, but increase the base disorient time, stop the stringing effect, get rid of the knock back, and lower the recharge time a little bit.
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Wow, v3 is a just a bucket o' tweaks, innit?
v4. Keep the new I4 version. If you must tweak it, increase the disorient magnitude or duration.
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The only problem I see with the v2 of Propel is the animation time, its way to long.
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Honestly...if they actually broke down and dialed back the activation time on Propel, I don't know what people would find to complain about.
Just kidding. We always find something to complain about.
"Destiny's powerful hand has made the bed of my future, and it's up to me to lie in it. I am destined to be a superhero. To right wrongs, and to pound two-fisted justice into the hearts of evildoers everywhere." -- The Tick
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Honestly...if they actually broke down and dialed back the activation time on Propel, I don't know what people would find to complain about.
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I don't even have to wait for them to do it to complain. 
Making Propel into a valuable single target damage tool still fails to address the control gap, which is the drive behind most issues with gravity. Animation times are a limiting factor for the set's control powers as a whole, not just on a flawed damage power like Propel.
If there is some desire to add damage to the set, they should add it to the single target Immobilize (Crush for gravity). That is where it should be added to all the controllers that have one. Make that thing be as good as Spectral Wounds and THEN you have an "OK if you MUST solo for a bit, you can" power.
Propel, both old and new, is clearly a hybrid damage / control power. The problem with hybrid powers is that in order to balance them, the individual components that form the whole are reduced in effectiveness. Isolating these components into different powers would allow gravity users to customize their powers like everyone else can.
Put damage on Crush. Lift is adequate as it is, you CAN slot it for a bit of extra damage, or for perma-flop. Make Propel a ranged disorient, keep the cool animation, keep the OLD levels of damage (in other words, negligible) to the targeted foe, and then trigger a disorient in an area around that target. The base disorient duration should match Flashfires and Stalagmites. Leave Wormhole as it is in Issue 3 (single target scalpel). Dimension Shift? Leave it as it is for the PvPers or for the types who like the additional tertiary / situational control powers such as sleeps and phase powers.
If there were some way to also keep the new Wormhole without losing the single target one, that'd be cool, but it's just an extra happy. If Dimension Shift could behave as it does now with a phase enhancement or act like WH 2.0 without one, that'd be cool, but probably too weird for the developers to consider.
Anyway, NOW is the time to reject WH 2.0 before we get it in play for a whole year and have people become attached to it.
THAT woud fix gravity right up.
Then scale the single target immobilize powers for ALL controllers to be effective as Spectral Wounds is now. That would let all controllers solo painfully if they absolutely had to, without becoming a melee puppy to get by. I don't know enough about mind to suggest anything or even know if it needs damage.
So, yeah, I can complain about Propel, even one that had its animation time reduced. "Thanks for returning my CDs after having them for a year. By the way, you've still got my DVD player, I kinda need that."
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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Making Propel into a valuable single target damage tool still fails to address the control gap, which is the drive behind most issues with gravity. Animation times are a limiting factor for the set's control powers as a whole, not just on a flawed damage power like Propel.
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Fair enough. I contend that pre-I4 Gravity also has a damage gap that buffed Propel addresses nicely. But yes...it doesn't give us anything control-like to do while GDF is recharging.
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If there is some desire to add damage to the set, they should add it to the single target Immobilize (Crush for gravity).
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I feel this pain. I used Crush extensively in the early game, when you could squeeze the hits out of an even-con mob with just two or three applications. Then I leveled to the point where Crush's Minor DoT wasn't doing even a pixel or two of damage to mobs. Crush damage doesn't scale; it appears to be a control power that also throws off a little taste of damage (like GDF) rather than a damage power that throws off a little bit of control (like Propel or Lift). I respecced it out and use GD in its place.
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That is where it should be added to all the controllers that have one. Make that thing be as good as Spectral Wounds and THEN you have an "OK if you MUST solo for a bit, you can" power.
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Again, this gets back to the question, what is Crush for? Damage, control, or both? Right now it leans towards control.
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Propel, both old and new, is clearly a hybrid damage / control power. The problem with hybrid powers is that in order to balance them, the individual components that form the whole are reduced in effectiveness. Isolating these components into different powers would allow gravity users to customize their powers like everyone else can.
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I disagree with your assessment of Propel. This is a damage power. It just happens to have a high-magnitude minor control effect. The problem it had before I4 was that, although it was classed as "High" damage, its long activation and recharge times made its DPS lower than Brawl (which is pretty bad). Tweaking its damage by the amount they did in I4 has brought its DPS up to the level of attacks like Lift and Air Superiority.
Everybody seems to want to add +Disorient to Propel. If I could have it for free I wouldn't complain, but I'd rather not trade the additional I4 damage for it. This power is about bringing the big hurt. The long activation time just gives the target time to say "Oh Sh*" before my uncle's 1985 Mercury Sable wallops them in the chin.
We just seem to have fundamentally different opinions about the proper roles of Propel and Crush. You see the first as a control power and the second as a damage power; I'm just the opposite.
"Destiny's powerful hand has made the bed of my future, and it's up to me to lie in it. I am destined to be a superhero. To right wrongs, and to pound two-fisted justice into the hearts of evildoers everywhere." -- The Tick
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We just seem to have fundamentally different opinions about the proper roles of Propel and Crush. You see the first as a control power and the second as a damage power; I'm just the opposite.
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I don't view either one, currently, as significant control or damage powers.
Considering that Propel has done no damage and no real control for a year, I think that's the place to put the disorient. As much as I hate DS, it IS a (tertiary) form of control and I can see leaving it as-is for situational and PvP use. After testing, I'm getting more control from the single-target WH than the new test one. Propel or Crush are the only alternatives.
The control effect from Crush and Propel is minor in both cases. If i put 1 acc and 5 immob dur in Crush, its effect on a combat is almost indistinguishible from the effect of having 1 acc and 1 immob duration. It isn't much of a control power. If you wanted to spam Immob, use CF.
So, no. Crush isn't about control except minimal survival at low levels and in a few rare situations. It also is not about damage. Neither is Propel. If you had to ramp one of these quasi-control powers up to be a damage option, it would be Crush, especially since ALL of the elemental controllers need a single target damage option and all of them have a mostly-pointless single-target Immob.
Propel is barely high enough (level 6), maybe, to justify being an AoE disorient, has an effect that makes sense with it, and has only been collecting dust anyway. You could even move DS to level 6, it isnt too powerful for that, and move Propel (a disorient version) to level 12.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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Currently, I use Propel not for the damage but to knock opponents back toward the tanker, into ice patches, etc. If the speed of the power were improved it becomes a decent single target knockback. (By the way, unlike some people, I find knockback very useful. I just make sure I'm knocking the target in the direction I want, as opposed to firing randomly.)
And, of course, shortening animation/recharge likewise increases damage per second, which some people want. I don't care about that, though - I'd just like to be able to keep people off their feet more easily.
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If your secondary is FF, then Force Bolt will do what you want very nicely.
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And if your secondary isn't FF...? Mine happens to be Kinetics, and yes, I do sometimes use Repel for positioning in a similar manner. And I use Propel when Repel is down or a little too clunky (since it's PBAE and sends them REALLY far), or I feel like doing a little damage too.
Plus, even if your secondary IS FF, I would think alternating Force Bolt with a quickened-version of Propel would be a good thing, allowing you to knockback twice as much as normal.
So yeah, maybe another way of looking at it is make Propel more like Force Bolt. A quick cast knockback attack that does some damage.
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Plus, even if your secondary IS FF, I would think alternating Force Bolt with a quickened-version of Propel would be a good thing, allowing you to knockback twice as much as normal.
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No, it wouldn't. Force bolt has a very fast recharge and a huge accuracy bonus right out of the box. Another knockback power without any other meaningful effect would be 100% redundant for a */FF controller.
I have done some quick runs after a test respec into wormhole.
Lvl 40 Grav/Storm
30 minutes of solo street sweeping in PI. (Rikti and Nemesis)
1 solo mission on invincible (CoT)
1 mission (Rikti and Crey) with 2 other controllers on invincible (a lvl 40 ill/kinetics, and a lvl 35 mind/storm skd to me - ty guys for helping out in case you read this)
Wormhole is slotted with one ACC, one Recharge, and one End reduc (all 40++) and I am perma-hasten.
I very much enjoyed the concept and visual effects of the new wormhole. I even liked the knockback aesthetically.
I had a lot of fun throwing mobs into the Sing field of doom and found that wormhole helped me save a bunch of endurance while street sweeping. It did this because I never felt I needed to spam my holds once I got the enemies in the murder hole and because I could get more use out of one casting of lightning storm.
The solo mish was not a real good test obviously, I used wormhole a couple times to practice with it, but one GDF and then Sings and LS and who needs anything else in a solo mish?
The 3 person mission was a lot of fun and I got to see groups of mobs in tight areas that numbered usually around 6-10 (42s mostly). My teammates were told I was testing the new wormhole and were helpful in watching the mobs and would wait when we were doing tests. We ran through the mish easily and no real problems crept up where emergency control was vitally needed (or with 3 controllers we locked down the battlefield from the get go). It was a lab map and had some good areas where wormhole could be used tactically, which was nice and lucky I got a map like that. Same basic principles applied for wormhole as when I street swept most of the time. Pick a group of baddies up, drop them into Sings, Phantoms, LS, and PA. Meanwhile the bad guys are killing each other and the murder zone is being debuffed with 2 freezing rains. Wormhole was nice to use to get any stragglers from a pull who felt like using range attacks back into our pets. Sending mobs down a long hallway kept them out of the action for a decent time (around 12 seconds from the time I push the button until they get back into combat) and when they did re-enter they would use weaker range attacks (and we could move to the opposite side of our pets while waiting for them). Using crush and wormhole around a corner also worked as described in previous posts, but I dont have crush on live and only respecd it in to check it out again (soon I will respec again and replace it with Propel to test that out).
Overall I like the new wormhole much better than the previous version. It works fabulously as an AoE IMO. At levels 26 + I don't normally want to single pull mobs, so I am glad I could pull a bunch with it. The ability to disorient in a pinch is nice (but flawed). It recharges quick enough to use every fight and will be ready twice in a medium length fight.
1) The AoE was big enough to make me happy with it. A tight pack of 6 - 10 would be all in the AoE. In some of the rooms in the last mish there were three or four groups of mobs in twos and threes all within agro range of each other but I could only get a single little group at a time (dang baddies using tactics and not clumping nicely for me). It rarely agroed baddies who were not in the AoE, even when the guy right next to them was TPd away (but it does agro guys in the AoE you miss, at least it sometimes does).
2) The range is fine (the activation range is shorter than I expected, it seems much shorter than TP Foes activation range). Do range enhcancers up both the range from which I can activate the power and the range I can send them away?
3) Some of the baddies shot at me while I was activating the power, even ones I hit (Obviously the misses can shoot at me all they want). It would be preferable to me if they were disoriented, then TPd. I don't believe any of the other controllers second tier control powers allow the baddies to shoot until after the mez wears off. The activation/animation time "looks" right for the effect, I actually dont think it needs to be shortened, but the baddies I successfully hit should not be able to shoot at me once I hit them, IMO.
4) Disorient time - sigh. It is short. It is so short, it is almost unenhanceable short. Could it last 10 seconds and start as soon as the power hits as opposed to waiting until after the port? The current disorient duration will kill this power as second tier control in 95% of the battlefields we will likely face.
5) Knockback after the port. It is cool. It adds 1-2 seconds to control (so that is 2 seconds of them sometimes shooting at you, 1 second of them porting, 2 seconds of them falling down and getting up, and 5 (?) seconds of disorient, total of ~10 seconds of control, but only 5 seconds of enhanceable control). However, I still question the value of a positioning tool which destroys your positioning. The coolness factor only goes so far. Personally, I would prefer them to stumble out of the wormhole disoreinted but not flying back 10 feet from my target point, but I can get used to it and put my target point 10 feet in front of my real goal or use walls and corners and trucks. So... either way is fine with me.
6) I would be remiss if I did not state that disoriented bad guys often zip around at amazing speeds (yeah I know you are aware of it, and I know it is some pathing (?) thing I have no comprehension of, but it still makes me a sad hero).
I want to try to get a big group (6+ team) together and run 2 or 3 missions with it to see if it helps with the gap. I am afraid the disorient time is too short and I will not be able to enhance it to anything meaningful, but I really want to be able to use this power on live after my testing. I am sorry for those who mourn the loss of old wormhole, but I had a grand time with the new Wormhole.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Thanks for the testing and report.
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I have done some quick runs after a test respec into wormhole.
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This is where I get worried. I'm glad you like the new wormhole, but the fact you respec'd into it suggests you didn't use the old wormhole. This makes a nice change for you - you're getting a power you didn't have before. However, I really hope you use it in every battle - because what you get comes at the cost of me losing a power I use in every battle.
I've also been running around on test with the new womhole (I didn't respec, so it's the same as it has always been - 2 accuravy) and I find that:
1. I can use it to move a debuff anchor around still. However, it has the added danger of nabbing nearby enemies too.
Overall this is more beneficial than before, as if the anchor is near someone else it'll grab them too. Downside is I used GD (not GDF) to knock-protect the target before shifting, so with the new wormhole anyone nearby will get thrown... usually out of the debuff.
I give this 3/5 stars for this use - it's got some advantages and disadvantages compared to old wormhole.
2. Pulling a dangerous boss from a pack when around a corner.
Old wormhole was quite reliable at this. A key difference between it and TP Foe is it will hit some big bosses as well as minions.
New Wormhole grabs the boss and all his friends too. So this tactical use is no longer viable.
Rating: 1/5 stars compared to old wormhole.
3. Removing irritating enemy-buffers: FF generators, DE eminators, Malta gun turrets
New wormhole makes this impossible. You can move that really annoying fungi, but all the DE get moved with it so your hold still isn't affecting them. They do run back leaving the paced buffer behind, but they are more likely to replace it closer to you now.
Rating: 1/5 compared to old wormhole
The upshot is the disorient is laughably short so it doesn't really justify being a control gap closer. The AoE makes it less of a surgical tool than it used to be - making it something I loved to something I regret taking. And with no more respec, I'm stuck with it.
If we are looking for an AoE disorient, I really don't think Wormhole is the sensible power to change. It's purpose is not currently primarily as a disorient.
I'm going to suggest the idea of adding an AoE disorient onto existing propel because this doesn't change the fundamental mechanic of propel (to bean people with forklifts) at all. It doesn't take away from those who already use and love propel in its current incarnation while giving gravity the boost it needs.
The wormhole change does take away from people who are using it as it stands, and that's why I have to cast my nay vote for this particular change.
Well, as long as we are discussing our most favored versions, I'll give ya mine.
Propel.
Go with the I4 version; add an AoE disorient to the impact. Make this the timely and unique AoE control gap power we need for all occassions.
Worm Hole.
Go with the I4 version; (sorry)(leave the disorient slight) but fix the knockback streaming of mobs so that they remain grouped, for so long as the disorient allows them to remain grouped.
Dimension Shift
Make it a single target effect. This will aleviate most of the loss in single target functionality from Worm Hole and at the same time make DS a more widely usable and effective power.
And I still think that overall across the board, we need either our activation times reduced or our damage increased to compensate for being so damn slow.
i haven't test this yet, but will try it, if someone already said this im sorry haven't had time to read the whole thing.
with wormhole an AOE we now have a semi viable run away/ control duo. wormhole then DS and run/fly/jump/tp away as fast as you can. this could also save your team the trouble of dealing with two MOBs
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i haven't test this yet, but will try it, if someone already said this im sorry haven't had time to read the whole thing.
with wormhole an AOE we now have a semi viable run away/ control duo. wormhole then DS and run/fly/jump/tp away as fast as you can. this could also save your team the trouble of dealing with two MOBs
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I'd rather have one viable power that lets my group beat a large group or even two groups than a semi-viable combination of two powers that lets us successfully turn tail and run away. Considering the other controller primaries have such powers, I don't see any reason why it's too much to ask for gravity.
My thoughts after more testing:
Propel can be used more in the late game because sings replace the need to be constantly casting something (depending on your seconday. Mine is storm and nothing i have in it needs to be spammed). with 5 damage so's i was doing somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of an even con minion's hp bar (without freezing rain). In larger fights when enemies die quickly, the animation time still makes it worthless (things often die before it hits) in addition to the fact that you will need to be using more of your other powers. I don't think the increase in damage has made it more viable as a team power, but it's now useable as a solo power after sings and early on. I also found it to be very good in pvp when the enemy was held.
The new wormhole... i can put things close together before they all get knocked apart, and i can use it as a panic button to help me run away, which is what d-shift is for. Of course, none of the old utility. For pvp players tend to spread out and it can be used like the old wormhole. That's about it.
D-shift in pvp-it's actually very useful against scrappers/tankers when on a team, giving you some time to let somebody else take care of the problem of magnitude, but it doesn't immobilize them (may just be due to the immob resist, or may not apply the effect. i didn't encounter other players i needed to use it on). Still the same in pve.
Still have the control gap, wormhole is worse, propel is better but issues are still the same, d-shift is the same. I think propel should activate faster, the aoe wormhole should get a longer disorient, and the old wormhole should be added again and replace crush. Possible new order: lift, gravity distortion, crushing field, propel, new wormhole, d-shift, gdf, old wormhole, sings.
just my thoughts... *shrug* i'm really curious as to what will actually happen.
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I'm probably a bit biased here by my own preference as well, I'd really, really like to be able to just slam a guy with a forklift and not have to worry about anything other than the fact that I just beaned him with the forklift and did a bunch of damage. So my preference just based on how I envision my character is to see propel stay a direct damage power, possibly with a single target disorient. But again, that's just my aesthetic and I admit it'd very likely be best overall for the set if I were dissapointed and propel turned into an AE disorient.
I guess the best judge of the relative usefulness of Detention Field vs Dimension Shift would be a Grav/FF Controller. Which power would a Grav/FF rather have?
As someone who's always had Propel and never respecced out of it, I can tell you it's fairly meaningless in AV battles. Against Held opponents I use it all the time, but relying on Lift and Crush for damage instead of Propel gives you about the same damage over time, if not more (I believe Crush on Live is the best damage over time power in the Gravity set if slotted for damage, though I'm not sure if Propel has overtaken it now with its new damage). So a longer recharge time on a Propel with an AoE Disorient on impact shouldn't really hurt overall Gravity damage much if Lift and Crush are slotted for damage.
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Fair enough. I'm taking into account though the fact that propel seems obviously intended to be a direct damage power; honestly, given that we get lift and propel I suspect that grav was originally intended to be a comparatively high damage controller set, back in the days before people envisioned fire imps and other pets being heavily slotted with recharge SOs.
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Detention Field isn't hailed as a wonder power, it's true. However, it isn't reviled nearly as much as Dimension Shift and Black Hole from what I've seen. Faint praise, I know.
Edit: And seeing as the person I'm quoting is a Grav/FF, which would you rather have if you had to choose one, and only one? (I'm honestly curious, a lot of us aren't in the position the Grav/FFs are)
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You know, that's a difficult call mostly because I don't see myself using either power all that often. If I had to choose I think I'd take dimension shift, I rarely find myself thinking "OMG if only I could have taken that one mob out of the picture, my holds just couldn't do it!" Anything I find myself really needing to do to a single, non-AV non-giant monster target (against whom detention field is worthless anyway) I can do without too much trouble with my regular holds and/or lift and/or force bolt. I see the odds of my wanting to use dimension shift as slim, versus nearly none for detention field.
Now, both powers will probably become more useful in PvP, though how useful remains to be seen. But then I'd still rather have an AE that I can use on an entire enemy team than a single target power with a root that won't get around anti-hold powers any better than my holds already do.