Issue 4 Changes for Gravity - Official Thread
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2005-03-22 14:26 in Developers' Corner
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Currently, I use Propel not for the damage but to knock opponents back toward the tanker, into ice patches, etc. If the speed of the power were improved it becomes a decent single target knockback. (By the way, unlike some people, I find knockback very useful. I just make sure I'm knocking the target in the direction I want, as opposed to firing randomly.)
And, of course, shortening animation/recharge likewise increases damage per second, which some people want. I don't care about that, though - I'd just like to be able to keep people off their feet more easily.
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If your secondary is FF, then Force Bolt will do what you want very nicely.
"Destiny's powerful hand has made the bed of my future, and it's up to me to lie in it. I am destined to be a superhero. To right wrongs, and to pound two-fisted justice into the hearts of evildoers everywhere." -- The Tick
Even though I favor a single-target wormhole, I have to admit, that's an interesting application of the AoE wormhole.
It sounds like it would work similar to the grav/ff combination of Dimension Shift and Repulsion Field: the effect is to shift some and pull out the unshifted and drop them over by the team. Its nice to help everyone know who'll take damage and who won't - one of the biggest problems with Dimension Shift.
On the downside, I don't think the AoE is large enough to be an effective gathering technique, and there's still a pretty big element of randomness to it. I may use a respec to incorporate DS to try this out. If we have to try to cobble together uses for a new power...at least it's something.
That's a lot more hoping and praying than I prefer to have when playing my controller. 
Then again, I suppose that's why I use the three brothers Darryl when occasions like that come up.
These changes to Wormhole aren't enough to make me want to get it. That's too bad really because it sounds like a fun power but it simply doesn't mesh with my playstyle.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
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As an aside, I haven't had a chance to try, but it's possible that AE Dimension Shift and AE Wormhole might combine with a little synergy. You can phase a high level group, then AE Wormhole the phased group somewhere else. The already phased opponents will stay in place, while the unphased opponents will be teleported away into a corner for your team to kill. This might allow AE Wormhole to act like a sifter to seperate phased from non-phased opponents. Not sure how useful this tactic might or might not be, but it's interesting to think about.
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That's a decent idea in theory, though still situational, but unfortunately you can't cast any powers on shifted bad guys. You'd just get an "unaffected" notice if you tried to do that.
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Also to note is that you will need a very high accuracy, or you run the risk of seperating the foes into 3 groups - phased old spot, unphased old spot, and unphased new spot, meaning you may be dealing with attacks from 2 angles, with a cavalry group to back them up at an unexpected time. 8)
Upsen.
I've got a level 50 grav/kin, and Ive tried out the new Wormhole on the test server. I like the wow factor of the AoE teleport, but it does, as many have noted, drastically change the tactical implications of using Wormhole.
Regarding this powers control factor, what if it was changed so that it was *un-resistible*? Then wed know exactly whats going where. And the certainty should offset the downsides of the AoE change.
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I've got a level 50 grav/kin, and Ive tried out the new Wormhole on the test server. I like the wow factor of the AoE teleport, but it does, as many have noted, drastically change the tactical implications of using Wormhole.
Regarding this powers control factor, what if it was changed so that it was *un-resistible*? Then wed know exactly whats going where. And the certainty should offset the downsides of the AoE change.
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While I'd like that, I think that it'd be too powerful and unbalanced when compared to other controllers, to have an automatic hit to move a bunch of enemies.
Upsen.
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Anogther good way to do disorient on propel is to make it an AOE from the point of the impact. You throw an object, it hits the target for damage, and the boom from the impact causes an AOE disorient.
I'd take that power.
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I like that idea. I'd take it, too. Keeps the flavor of the original power better than a cone, imo. Also easier to use than a cone. Powers like Transference already work on the same 'AoE around a target enemy' principle, so shouldn't be too hard to code either.
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I'd also like to chime in and say I like this idea. I keep Propel only because of the style and probably won't spec out of it. While I'm glad to see there has been some damage added to it I still don't think it's a very useful power. *shrug*
Not sure if someone has said this before...but it'd be neat if Singularities used Propel here and there.
Count me as another voice in the 'nay!' camp. I don't like it.
I've not read the thread in its entirety, so apologies if I'm writing things already said.
* Wormhole as it was had a tactical use that came up fairly regularly. There's enough placeable annoyings in the 26+ game that make this worthwhile - DE eminators, gun turrets, etc. and it is also an excellent pulling tool and method of keeping debuff-anchors in the fight. It's not useful as such in the pre-26 game, but its also not available in the pre-26 game. So no problem.
* Wormhole the 'improved' has been relegated to a pulling tool or very crappy disorient. The animation times are too long to make this work with something else, and I feel we've now been given yet another 'wow, looks cool but doesn't do much' power to replace one that actually had a use. If you want something for putting enemies out of the fight a long way away that the team will have to move over to after the current fight, can I recommend dimension shift?
* The gravity controller suffers the most in the 8-17 range. Every other controller archetype has a method of keeping groups under control in this level range. It may be a sleep, sure, but given that most even-level heroes don't have a plethora of AoE attacks at this time (spines scrapper and fire blaster notwithstanding) a sleep can be pretty effective.
As a player with a level 50 gravity controller I always feel bad about broadcasting 'Caverns Trial looking for non-gravity controller!' because a pre-18 gravity controller cannot provide the control to handle a bad pull or adds. But I'd only recruit a pre-18 gravity controller if I had another controller to do the control job already. A level 26+ AoE short disorient with a long cast time is not the solution here.
* Propel is still pretty but useless, and remains more useless than pre-change wormhole.
The current wormhole changes are just that - changes. They add nothing to the powerset.
I don't understand why propel wasn't chosen as the one to change. There are mixed feelings on wormhole, mixed feelings on dimension shift. But from what I can tell practically everyone considers propel to be sub-par. How sub-par varies, but sub-par nonetheless. Not to mention it sits smack in the middle of the level range where we gravs have our biggest weakness.
Level 8-17 is a very long control gap. At level 18 we can at least make the gap shorter.
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In solo play, you toss your AoE Hold and then start cycling your single-target holds. In the standard mob spawn of 3 bad guys, you can keep the entire group held indefinitely while you plink away at one target with your damage, assuming you devoted some slotting to your primary holds.
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I think this depends on the kind of solo play you do. I tend to prefer to play my other controllers' solo missions on +1 level, +foe numbers, and I also prefer to do street sweeping on the biggest packs I can handle. I'd say the foe size I face on my Ice and Fire controllers is closer to 6-8, sometimes more, depending on placement for indoor missions, and as big as I can handle for outdoor stuff (I try for packs size 8-15, depending on where I am).
I haven't achieved Singularities yet (I'm level 27, and about 3 bubbles from level 28) but I could see opening with a hold on a pack of 10 or so +3 minions (reds), throwing my second hold for the boss (purple), and then I've got my control gap because, based on the damage I've seen from playing with other Sungularity users, my hold will wear off before the Sings go through these guys. I won't be able to single-cycle that many. I have been anticipating using the Wormhole as a mechanism for feeding guys near the Singularity kill zone so that I DONT have to personally hold them anymore. Even so, I'm not sure I could handle that pack with a control gap. However, if I could handle it, Wormhole + Feeding seems like the ticket. Now, I guess I could throw CF on them also and try to WH the left half somewhere far away, but I'd have to see if that is viable myself by testing it. I might have to lower my spawn size or level difference.
Of course this is all conjecture on my part, based on experiences with my other pet-enabled controllers, and on having teaming with Gravity controllers.
I guess I'll find out (though I probably won't make level 34 (maxed Singularities) in time to test the old (current) wormhole with them). I will only be able to see if I can AoE WH part of a CF-ed pack far enough away to finish one half while working on another half.
Anyway, the idea that a solo spawn size is 3 foes is one I don't agree with, because at 32 my Ice Controller could do packs of +2s with some effort, and by the my Jacks were maxed, I could do packs of +3s, and by packs I mean 8 or more guys, or more when I find them. Sometimes the packs were smaller but in those cases, unless they were +3, I barely even had to do much. For +4s I try to stick to only 3 or 4 foes tops.
Maybe foe pack size affects how you like the new singularity. Dunno, you guys tell me. I'll find out in 4.3 levels.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Uh, if you want to increase your mission difficulty pre-32, more power to you Uni. Personally I do not see how you can take a gravity controller against a pack of 10 red minions and even kill one of them pre-32 before you faceplant.
And I'm not talking about what you can handle anyway. I'm talking what tends to spawn inside a mission. Clumps of three bad guys. Sometimes multiple clumps, sure. Sometimes clumps of 2 bad guys. But typically a spawn happens in groups of three on base heroic. Heck, spawn size is similar on invincible, the mobs are just two levels higher.
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I always wanted a disorient cone on Propel, with the targeted foe being struck by the old damage (or even the new amount) but everybody else just gets the disorient. A FULL LENGTH disorient. The zero range would balance the damage to 1 target. You could slot this puppy for damage or for disorient, your choice. Would rock.
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Anogther good way to do disorient on propel is to make it an AOE from the point of the impact. You throw an object, it hits the target for damage, and the boom from the impact causes an AOE disorient.
I'd take that power.
Upsen.
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Now that is a great idea! Even I would pick up Propel!
Keep the same activation time, keep the new single target damage, adjust the recast timer accordingly and make the point of impact a radiant AoE stun with a good 10 second or so base disorient or whatever. Beautiful. Or even reduce the single target damage a bit and make the AoE a possible toggle killer too. heh.
This solves so many issues... One it makes propel a worthwhile power to pick up. Two, it fills the Control gap nicely and uniquely AND at the right point in the Gravity Controllers career.
Then you can put Worm Hole back to the way it was/currently is and I think almost everyone would be happy. I know I would. I would pick up both Propel and Worm hole which currently have no place anywhere in my build.
I hope the devs are still reading this thread...
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Uh, if you want to increase your mission difficulty pre-32, more power to you Uni. Personally I do not see how you can take a gravity controller against a pack of 10 red minions and even kill one of them pre-32 before you faceplant.
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I don't bother soloing pre-32. I guess I didn't communicate it very well, but I'm trying to say that based on the difficulty I can handle with my Ice and my Fire controllers (who do have their pets), and based with my general familiarity with gravity (having played 5 of them, a few into the mid-late 20s now, and having grouped with several pet-enabled ones), I don't see how gravity could handle the same level of opposition (EDIT: depending on your secondary and your level).
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And I'm not talking about what you can handle anyway. I'm talking what tends to spawn inside a mission. Clumps of three bad guys. Sometimes multiple clumps, sure. Sometimes clumps of 2 bad guys. But typically a spawn happens in groups of three on base heroic. Heck, spawn size is similar on invincible, the mobs are just two levels higher.
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Yeah, I'll grant you that a solo gravity controller can play on easy mode and do fine, from what I can infer from my as-yet-incomplete experience (based on seeing other people's singularities in action). However, I can think of a lot of missions like COT missions that Arctic Moon soloed on the next to last setting, which I think is +1/+numbers. Despite the fact that they were only +1, supposedly, they were actually mostly all +2, which meant oranges, with red LTs and purple bosses. Also, with more spawning, and the way the Caves clump packs, it was almost impossible to isolate one pack from another. Invariably, the next group 20 feet over would aggro on me so I'm dealing with 2 packs. Sometimes 3 on a steep temple slope. On some missions I'd have to deal with those portals that spew out nasties (I failed some of those because I couldnt target the portal reliably, but went back and won some of them too). So in reality, I'd often fight 10 or more. I had similar issues with Rikti, especially in the instanced outdoor zones.
Again, setting it back down to heroic is a viable option, but I'm not claiming a Grav can't solo. I'm just saying I wonder if I will be able to handle large numbers of spawns with them? I can't visualize a Gravity controller handling a room full of portaled Behemoths. To come full circle, I would think that one way to help a little with the control gap in big situations would be the scalpel Wormhole for delivering targets (after an opening hold) into the limited lock-down zone of the Singularities. With new packs being added, I'd think I'd have to expose myself to too much risk to try to use the new AoE WH (multi aggro during slow animation) to move a new pack or section to the Wormholes. Could they lock down 5-10 adds? I'd almost rather pull in one at a time.
As I've said before, this is just a concern I have. I liked the precision tool but I won't really be able to know for sure until I'm 32-34 myself.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
I just wish every powerset could offer a choice of powers to take similar to the kheldian system. So when you get new power choices, you can choose what you want. I think it would be fun to have folding space back, but I wouldn't want gravity to lose its pet either.
One thing I have a problem with is that Dimension Shift has the potential to be useful, but it's very hard to tell which enemies are phased and which aren't when they are all clustered up in a group. I think adding a little phased icon to the target window for phased enemies might help a lot, or maybe change the color of the targeting reticle if they are phased.
Uh. Okay. Lemme gather my thoughts here.
First, this was a gravity discussion. How your ice controller could solo pre-pet is relevant, but only as a comparison. A gravity controller who set mission difficulty to +1lvl/+numbers actually just set his difficulty to the highest difficulty for his set (because the numbers make it more dangerous than the extra level of the next setting, even post-pet thru 50). All other controller sets are better at atypically-large mob spawns than gravity.
Second, gravity can solo its missions. Wormhole v2.0 doesn't change that, especially considering that it's the 8th power in the set. It's not going to have much impact on small teams, but I think it might be positive if the team relies upon the grav controller to set the pace and lead the team. The changes in gravity might have impact on making gravity solo more effectively, given the additional damage of propel. I'm not sure, but I've started a fresh grav troller on test to give it a whirl.
Third, the real question here is "do these changes reduce our control gap, enabling us to bring as much to large teams as the other controller classes?"
***CONTROL GAP EXPLAINED HERE, SKIP IF YOU WANT***
The control gap is that time that passes between when GDF (AoE hold) on a group of mobs falls and when it recharges. All other control sets have secondary, combat friendly patches to cover the time between AoE holds. Ice gets a knockdown patch. Fire gets a disorient. Illusion gets invincible tankers. Mind gets several options. Earth gets that evil knockdown power. These powers are almost all universally usable, with the slight tweak that some of them require mobs to be on the ground (which is not that big a deal--any controller can lock a flier to the ground if he needs to).
Gravity had dimension shift before the change. DS is a power that can get you kicked from a team if you use it as control. It's functionality really only applies in PvE as a panic button. Wormhole v1.0 didn't apply as it was single-target.
***CONTROL GAP LECTURE ENDS HERE***
The new wormhole does not really close the gap. The disorient duration is extremely short. Wormhole can still be used to send mobs away, which is a form of control. But it is not a combat-friendly form. The knockback is easy to manipulate how you want it, since we have walls and other such items to work with. But it's going to have a break between AoE mezzes, which could be our death as all controllers rely upon lockdown for defense. It's significantly weaker than the other sets secondary control.
On a positive note, I think we might become very popular with taunting tankers. Grab a group, port them to the tanker, make sure he knows to taunt before the disorient breaks (or a scrapper with an AoE), and you have a legitimate form of crowd control. It sucks that we'll require a tanker to do it, but this could work out really well. Couple gravity with kinetics (heh heh, surprise!) and you have quite the tanker/scrapper buddy.
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First, this was a gravity discussion. How your ice controller could solo pre-pet is relevant, but only as a comparison. A gravity controller who set mission difficulty to +1lvl/+numbers actually just set his difficulty to the highest difficulty for his set (because the numbers make it more dangerous than the extra level of the next setting, even post-pet thru 50). All other controller sets are better at atypically-large mob spawns than gravity.
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I know we're taking the subject slightly off track, but I have to mildly disagree with this. While a Gravity controller that relied entirely on his/her Primary set to solo might be limited by those level ranges, I can assure you that Gravity can solo higher levels than that depending on their secondary. I used to solo hunt lvl 41-42 Nemesis in PI when I was 38. I've even soloed 5 AVs... which I consider my personal crowning achievments in this game. Nemesis, Chimera, Countess Crey, Terra and Envoy of Shadows (Countess was -1, Envoy and Terra were -2, Nemesis and Chimera were even con). I question my ability to have done that without a hefty supply of Inspirations, determination and my radiation secondary. My point is that Gravity is in no way limited to small groups of +1 enemies. Are we as efficient as a Fire or Illusion controller? Doubtful, but we aren't pushovers.
If you were talking pre-32, then I apologize for ranting.
Hey, express your opinions! Free country, public board. I was mostly talking about pre-32, although the control gap exists for the entire game for gravity as a primary.
However, what I said and what you quoted is that gravity is more challenging at +1 with more mobs than +2. I didn't say gravity was limited to small groups. But without the secondary AoE mezzer, larger groups are significantly more dangerous to us than other sets. And that is true for all levels of the game, although the definition of "large groups" changes as your level goes up.
But this is all besides the point. The point is that the new wormhole still doesn't seem to cover the control gap as well as any other set can do. I don't really have a problem with this, since we're the premier mag-builders in the game and I enjoy the game regardless.
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First, this was a gravity discussion. How your ice controller could solo pre-pet is relevant, but only as a comparison. A gravity controller who set mission difficulty to +1lvl/+numbers actually just set his difficulty to the highest difficulty for his set (because the numbers make it more dangerous than the extra level of the next setting, even post-pet thru 50). All other controller sets are better at atypically-large mob spawns than gravity.
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I know we're taking the subject slightly off track, but I have to mildly disagree with this. While a Gravity controller that relied entirely on his/her Primary set to solo might be limited by those level ranges, I can assure you that Gravity can solo higher levels than that depending on their secondary. I used to solo hunt lvl 41-42 Nemesis in PI when I was 38. I've even soloed 5 AVs... which I consider my personal crowning achievments in this game. Nemesis, Chimera, Countess Crey, Terra and Envoy of Shadows (Countess was -1, Envoy and Terra were -2, Nemesis and Chimera were even con). I question my ability to have done that without a hefty supply of Inspirations, determination and my radiation secondary. My point is that Gravity is in no way limited to small groups of +1 enemies. Are we as efficient as a Fire or Illusion controller? Doubtful, but we aren't pushovers.
If you were talking pre-32, then I apologize for ranting.
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Rad secondary has control aspects that other secondaries do not have. Which is why this discussion is not about secondaries, but primaries... namely Grav. Obviously you have a way around the "Grav" issues, being that you have access to the Rad secondary. Others, such as myself, do not have a secondary that is as multi-functional as Rad and therefore suffer from the base troubles associated with Grav Primary.
So with all due respect... I'm thrilled your life is so easy... seems to be a common thread with anything */rad. (hmmm...) But as for the rest of us, your argument is just so much... Hyperbole.
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I used to solo hunt lvl 41-42 Nemesis in PI when I was 38. I've even soloed 5 AVs... which I consider my personal crowning achievments in this game. Nemesis, Chimera, Countess Crey, Terra and Envoy of Shadows (Countess was -1, Envoy and Terra were -2, Nemesis and Chimera were even con). I question my ability to have done that without a hefty supply of Inspirations, determination and my radiation secondary.
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I also took Radiation as a secondary so that my Gravity controller would be a real controller (meaning that I'd eventually have a real second hold).
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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Uh, if you want to increase your mission difficulty pre-32, more power to you Uni. Personally I do not see how you can take a gravity controller against a pack of 10 red minions and even kill one of them pre-32 before you faceplant.
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I don't bother soloing pre-32. I guess I didn't communicate it very well, but I'm trying to say that based on the difficulty I can handle with my Ice and my Fire controllers (who do have their pets), and based with my general familiarity with gravity (having played 5 of them, a few into the mid-late 20s now, and having grouped with several pet-enabled ones), I don't see how gravity could handle the same level of opposition (EDIT: depending on your secondary and your level).
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And I'm not talking about what you can handle anyway. I'm talking what tends to spawn inside a mission. Clumps of three bad guys. Sometimes multiple clumps, sure. Sometimes clumps of 2 bad guys. But typically a spawn happens in groups of three on base heroic. Heck, spawn size is similar on invincible, the mobs are just two levels higher.
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Yeah, I'll grant you that a solo gravity controller can play on easy mode and do fine, from what I can infer from my as-yet-incomplete experience (based on seeing other people's singularities in action). However, I can think of a lot of missions like COT missions that Arctic Moon soloed on the next to last setting, which I think is +1/+numbers. Despite the fact that they were only +1, supposedly, they were actually mostly all +2, which meant oranges, with red LTs and purple bosses. Also, with more spawning, and the way the Caves clump packs, it was almost impossible to isolate one pack from another. Invariably, the next group 20 feet over would aggro on me so I'm dealing with 2 packs. Sometimes 3 on a steep temple slope. On some missions I'd have to deal with those portals that spew out nasties (I failed some of those because I couldnt target the portal reliably, but went back and won some of them too). So in reality, I'd often fight 10 or more. I had similar issues with Rikti, especially in the instanced outdoor zones.
Again, setting it back down to heroic is a viable option, but I'm not claiming a Grav can't solo. I'm just saying I wonder if I will be able to handle large numbers of spawns with them? I can't visualize a Gravity controller handling a room full of portaled Behemoths. To come full circle, I would think that one way to help a little with the control gap in big situations would be the scalpel Wormhole for delivering targets (after an opening hold) into the limited lock-down zone of the Singularities. With new packs being added, I'd think I'd have to expose myself to too much risk to try to use the new AoE WH (multi aggro during slow animation) to move a new pack or section to the Wormholes. Could they lock down 5-10 adds? I'd almost rather pull in one at a time.
As I've said before, this is just a concern I have. I liked the precision tool but I won't really be able to know for sure until I'm 32-34 myself.
Lewis
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This was a good post. Sorry I missed it before.
Your concerns are well founded UP. And I can tell you that at 35 with 3 pets up and fully slotted a Grav/Kin is in serious trouble as a lone controller in any large encounter as you described above. The control gap exists in the upper game just as prevalently. Our pets do help, but they are not designed to help us where we need it most. They have no AoE holds. They have a root and single target holds only. Now try to get them to hold that entire extra group of Nemesis that just joined in. LOL Fat chance. At this level, squishies (you know the people who depend on you) can't afford to wait while you slow down the enemy attack... one foe at a time.
Oh and did I mention the first group you held, before being so rudely interupted, is about to drop out of your first hold and with Perma hasten and two recharge slots... your GDF is still some time off from returning.
Dont get me wrong, I like our pets. They aren't the problem, they just aren't the solution either. Which means, neither is progressing post 32.
Seems the best solution remains an elusive beast. The more I think about it though, the more I favor an AoE disorient or stun to Propel. That way it doesn't in any way lose it's current functionality (single target direct damage) for those who like it as such, and at the same time fills a very large gap at the oportune moment and becomes/remains a useful power justifying that ungodly activation sequence.
Meanwhile, wormhole remains unchanged for those who have come to depend on it over the last year as it is. As for DS, make it single target... or don't. /shrug
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Seems the best solution remains an elusive beast. The more I think about it though, the more I favor an AoE disorient or stun to Propel. That way it doesn't in any way lose it's current functionality (single target direct damage) for those who like it as such, and at the same time fills a very large gap at the oportune moment and becomes/remains a useful power justifying that ungodly activation sequence.
Meanwhile, wormhole remains unchanged for those who have come to depend on it over the last year as it is. As for DS, make it single target... or don't. /shrug
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This does sound like a pretty good solution, my only worry woudl be that it'd reduce the utility for controllers who want to spam a direct damage power over and over for damage on AVs or held opponents; there's no way we're going to get a worthwhile AE disorient with the recharge time propel currently has. Then again, as much as I love the idea of pounding the ever living stuffing out of a target with a rain of sofas and forklifts, it might be the overall least painful solution. As much as I dislike dimension shift, it does seem like it'll be very powerful in PvP.
IMO it'll also be an even more inferior power if made single target, after all I haven't heard people talking about how ungodly good detention field is and that's better than a single target dim shift (and available to defenders too, so if it was that good you'd think you'd hear from them about it). Then again, that's just my opinion and it's not an especially well informed one since I don't really read the defender forums.
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This does sound like a pretty good solution, my only worry woudl be that it'd reduce the utility for controllers who want to spam a direct damage power over and over for damage on AVs or held opponents; there's no way we're going to get a worthwhile AE disorient with the recharge time propel currently has. Then again, as much as I love the idea of pounding the ever living stuffing out of a target with a rain of sofas and forklifts, it might be the overall least painful solution. As much as I dislike dimension shift, it does seem like it'll be very powerful in PvP.
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As someone who's always had Propel and never respecced out of it, I can tell you it's fairly meaningless in AV battles. Against Held opponents I use it all the time, but relying on Lift and Crush for damage instead of Propel gives you about the same damage over time, if not more (I believe Crush on Live is the best damage over time power in the Gravity set if slotted for damage, though I'm not sure if Propel has overtaken it now with its new damage). So a longer recharge time on a Propel with an AoE Disorient on impact shouldn't really hurt overall Gravity damage much if Lift and Crush are slotted for damage.
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IMO it'll also be an even more inferior power if made single target, after all I haven't heard people talking about how ungodly good detention field is and that's better than a single target dim shift (and available to defenders too, so if it was that good you'd think you'd hear from them about it). Then again, that's just my opinion and it's not an especially well informed one since I don't really read the defender forums.
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Detention Field isn't hailed as a wonder power, it's true. However, it isn't reviled nearly as much as Dimension Shift and Black Hole from what I've seen. Faint praise, I know. 
I guess the best judge of the relative usefulness of Detention Field vs Dimension Shift would be a Grav/FF Controller. Which power would a Grav/FF rather have?
Edit: And seeing as the person I'm quoting is a Grav/FF, which would you rather have if you had to choose one, and only one? (I'm honestly curious, a lot of us aren't in the position the Grav/FFs are)
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
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First, this was a gravity discussion. How your ice controller could solo pre-pet is relevant, but only as a comparison. A gravity controller who set mission difficulty to +1lvl/+numbers actually just set his difficulty to the highest difficulty for his set (because the numbers make it more dangerous than the extra level of the next setting, even post-pet thru 50). All other controller sets are better at atypically-large mob spawns than gravity.
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I know we're taking the subject slightly off track, but I have to mildly disagree with this. While a Gravity controller that relied entirely on his/her Primary set to solo might be limited by those level ranges, I can assure you that Gravity can solo higher levels than that depending on their secondary. I used to solo hunt lvl 41-42 Nemesis in PI when I was 38. I've even soloed 5 AVs... which I consider my personal crowning achievments in this game. Nemesis, Chimera, Countess Crey, Terra and Envoy of Shadows (Countess was -1, Envoy and Terra were -2, Nemesis and Chimera were even con). I question my ability to have done that without a hefty supply of Inspirations, determination and my radiation secondary. My point is that Gravity is in no way limited to small groups of +1 enemies. Are we as efficient as a Fire or Illusion controller? Doubtful, but we aren't pushovers.
If you were talking pre-32, then I apologize for ranting.
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Rad secondary has control aspects that other secondaries do not have. Which is why this discussion is not about secondaries, but primaries... namely Grav. Obviously you have a way around the "Grav" issues, being that you have access to the Rad secondary. Others, such as myself, do not have a secondary that is as multi-functional as Rad and therefore suffer from the base troubles associated with Grav Primary.
So with all due respect... I'm thrilled your life is so easy... seems to be a common thread with anything */rad. (hmmm...) But as for the rest of us, your argument is just so much... Hyperbole.
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Since you quoted me I'll assume you actually read this part: "I question my ability to have done that without a hefty supply of Inspirations, determination and my radiation secondary."
And it's actually more the buff/debuffs/heal aura that make me able to solo those higher levels and AVs. The extra slow from Lingering Rad and the holds from Choking Cloud and EMP are nice, but aren't the reason I'm able to do what I do.
Not trying to derail this thread Thoth93, but I think that what PMM was trying to say is that yes, there is a control gap, which is why I and others picked Rad as a Secondary to have more situational tools in my box, of which EMP is just one. I'm not all that familiar with some of Kin's abilities aside from the mainstays, but even though x/Rads don't get the glory that is FS, we get a lot of other little things that add up.
There are ways to handle those 2 seperate groups of up to 10 +2's with a Boss & some Lt's, and most of that has to do with my Secondary, not my Primary. It's nice to be able to dip into your magic bag of Secondary tricks & grab a heal, a buff, 2 debuffs, a slow, a monster hold, I know that there's something in there that I can pull out to get me out of this mess. Should it be that way, should I have to depend on my 2ndary to try and bridge the gap? No, it shouldn't. IMHO I feel that other Primaries can use their 2ndaries to compliment them, not prop them up.
I know that a lot of people want to stress the individuality of the Gravity set, you have your view of things and I respect that. But I look at things purely on a functional level, not based on character concepts. Bottom line, I'd like to have as many tools & options in my Primary as Fire, Ice, Mind and Earth do. Right now it's not even close. A few clicks and they can change to the :newspaper: emote because nothing will be posing any danger until they're dispatched. In pure Primary controlling ability, I feel inferior next to them and it makes me angry.
I'm not saying that we're gimped, compared to my Illusion I feel like Magneto, but I for one would rather have powers with more utility than some that are cool eye candy and very unique but at best extremely situational, and at worst all but useless in PvE on an every fight basis.
You know... now that i think about... I might've just jumped at the opportunity to brag a little. I do believe Gravity as a whole has an AoE control gap, but I'm often oblivious to it because of my secondary (which, btw, I chose for concept 10 months ago. I knew nothing of any 'control' issues back then). My only point I have, i suppose, is that Gravity can do wonderous things... but it needs outside support to do it. Unlike some of the other Primaries that could almost ignore thier secondaries to pull off what we do solo-wise.
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As an aside, I haven't had a chance to try, but it's possible that AE Dimension Shift and AE Wormhole might combine with a little synergy. You can phase a high level group, then AE Wormhole the phased group somewhere else. The already phased opponents will stay in place, while the unphased opponents will be teleported away into a corner for your team to kill. This might allow AE Wormhole to act like a sifter to seperate phased from non-phased opponents. Not sure how useful this tactic might or might not be, but it's interesting to think about.
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That's a decent idea in theory, though still situational, but unfortunately you can't cast any powers on shifted bad guys. You'd just get an "unaffected" notice if you tried to do that.