[ QUOTE ]
-Imob Groups of mobs, and prevented attacks unless attacked
[/ QUOTE ]
Except that ST's cone every 7.5 seconds was percieved to be an attack. There was no "hold" when I used ST. Now, maybe that changed when they added the debuff fix to fear (Debuffs used to awaken mobs from fear, now they don't), but that didn't happen until after the scatter returned.
[ QUOTE ]
-It also debuffed and stacked with itself -acc until the point the mob cudn't hit.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is very true. It made the start of the battle much more interesting because they were still hitting then. Granted, there were ways around this. Personally, I'm willing to succeede that the stackable debuff was too strong. I've said all along I'd want ST to just use Fearsome Stare, which still has the acc debuff, but it doesn't stack (you can slot it, though.)
[ QUOTE ]
-Mobs that can't hit back with success, and can't move, are pretty much sitting ducks
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yes, this is pretty much the point behind the entire Controller AT. Flash does the same thing, only there's no retaliation at all. Again, if we remove the stackable debuff, ST becomes a good Secondary control tool. Not as good as your area hold, but still useful in battle.
[ QUOTE ]
-No defenses were designed for mobs against fear, unlike holds, since orgianlly it was an oh pooo power.
[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't true. Fear works just like any other hold. AV's have a high resistance to it with their triangles up, Bosses require two hits to cower (unless there's a crit), and monsters require an incredible magnitude to make cower (except for Hatched Krackens, but they already only have Boss level resistances).
Also, there are mobs that are resistant to fear. Nemesis are an example of this. If you were to cast fear on a group of nemesis soldiers, all you'd get is a ton of agro. The second hit would do the job, but resistances exist.
[ QUOTE ]
The proposed spectral terror basically destroys its usefulness for AoE. The power would still be very powerful if combined with an Imob but, obviously thats not within the Illusion bag of tricks.
I think it should just be made to not self stack. It would allow the mobs a better then smoke grenade chance of hitting, while not destroying AoE.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahh, at least we agree at the core of the matter. I'm willing to accept that the devs felt that I3 Spectral Terror was overpowered. I may not agree, but I'm willing to work on this.
This is why I want Spectral Terror to just cast Fearsome Stare. This gives us the limited crowd control we're looking for without having an over powering debuff in the power.
Also, to be fair, I think the recast time of the power should be doubled. Make it every 15 second, so ST only gets 4 casts before it dies (as opposed to the 8 it gets now). This will require you to use more tactics against mobs with higher resitances, and keeps bosses a factor.
I think with those changes ST remains a useful power (no scatter, with an increased crowd control), but not over powered (The debuff doesn't stack however, it can be slotted like Fearsome Stare, and you don't have the "instant lockdown" some felt the old ST had. Also, ST will still no take agro, so those 15 second between casts will be a lot more interesting against Boss's and Fear resistant mobs.)
Am I crazy here?
[ QUOTE ]
Fear works just like any other hold. AV's have a high resistance to it with their triangles up, Bosses require two hits to cower (unless there's a crit)
[/ QUOTE ]
Can dark defenders get fear crits? Because Ive feared bosses in one shot before.
[ QUOTE ]
This isn't true. Fear works just like any other hold. AV's have a high resistance to it with their triangles up, Bosses require two hits to cower (unless there's a crit), and monsters require an incredible magnitude to make cower (except for Hatched Krackens, but they already only have Boss level resistances).
Also, there are mobs that are resistant to fear. Nemesis are an example of this. If you were to cast fear on a group of nemesis soldiers, all you'd get is a ton of agro. The second hit would do the job, but resistances exist.
[/ QUOTE ]
Forgive the error. I was more thinking of things like fungi emitters. Things which are defenses beyond normal resistances. I'll concede those inherent resistances do exist.
But at the end I think we're in agreement.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fear works just like any other hold. AV's have a high resistance to it with their triangles up, Bosses require two hits to cower (unless there's a crit)
[/ QUOTE ]
Can dark defenders get fear crits? Because Ive feared bosses in one shot before.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, all AT's have a 5% chance of hitting for a critical, except for Scrappers who have a higher chance.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fear works just like any other hold. AV's have a high resistance to it with their triangles up, Bosses require two hits to cower (unless there's a crit)
[/ QUOTE ]
Can dark defenders get fear crits? Because Ive feared bosses in one shot before.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, all AT's have a 5% chance of hitting for a critical, except for Scrappers who have a higher chance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can anyone else confirm this? I know for a fact its not true on damage. Moreover, I so routinely fear bosses in one shot, I dont think its just a 5% chance...
Okay, I'm thinking, just from a RolePlaying perspective, ST should cause scatter. Just thinking about the actual name of the power 'Spectral Terror '. From my point of view, I would tremble in fear , and flee in terror . Just a poetic word thing.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fear works just like any other hold. AV's have a high resistance to it with their triangles up, Bosses require two hits to cower (unless there's a crit)
[/ QUOTE ]
Can dark defenders get fear crits? Because Ive feared bosses in one shot before.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, all AT's have a 5% chance of hitting for a critical, except for Scrappers who have a higher chance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can anyone else confirm this? I know for a fact its not true on damage. Moreover, I so routinely fear bosses in one shot, I dont think its just a 5% chance...
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I should have qualified that. Those are the "official" numbers that are going around the forums. As you know the devs (except for Geko) hate giving out numbers. While it does seem that it's more then 5% (especially as you get higher in level), I've yet to hear a different number.
I should have said "All AT's have a chance to Critical, although it's slightly higher for Scrappers".
No this is not true...only certain powers have crits.... Like blind is a Mag 3 hold it also has a mag 1 hold that hits 20% of the time so you can say it is mag 3 hold that is mag 4 20% of the time. There are others like this. But it is by no means in all sets and all AT's.
The above statement was not meant to say that only mez powers have crits I was just using a particular mez power as an example.
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I'm thinking, just from a RolePlaying perspective, ST should cause scatter. Just thinking about the actual name of the power 'Spectral Terror '. From my point of view, I would tremble in fear , and flee in terror . Just a poetic word thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
From a role playing perspective, I should be able to open a door with my superstrength tanker. Or at least not get shoved by a pedestrian. Throw RP out the window, the rest of the game does. Moreover, this was what the old fear did, and it was relatively useless. Datamining showed it was rarely taken, and players didnt like it. Hence fear was changed. Have you ever heard the expression "paralyzed with fear"? Apply it here.
[ QUOTE ]
No this is not true...only certain powers have crits.... Like blind is a Mag 3 hold it also has a mag 1 hold that hits 20% of the time so you can say it is mag 3 hold that is mag 4 20% of the time. There are others like this. But it is by no means in all sets and all AT's.
The above statement was not meant to say that only mez powers have crits I was just using a particular mez power as an example.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, thats a controller power. I would hope anyoen posting here is aware that controllers can get crit holds to hold a boss in 1 shot. I however, was questioning whether or not a boss normalyl takes a crit fear to be feared. I dont think they do. As for defenders getting crit holds, I believe geko said only controllers (and not defenders, blasters, or anyone else) can get crit holds to hold a boss in 1 shot.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why people care about the stackable debuffs. By the time ST put a mob at the accuracy minimum, the mobs were long since dead unless your build was terrible. It was kewl and all, but it didn't add to Subby's power at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well the fights your describing, using ST might be overkill. 
It likes comparing the minimum fighting even con minions vs fighting an AV. And saying well since I didn't need vs the even con minions the power mustn't be good. 
Stacking buffs/debuffs, make a heroe all the more powerful as a fight progresses. And if it doesn't make that big a difference I'd think you'd be very supportive of just removing the Stacking since afterall, it doesn't make much difference to you. 
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought it was kewl because it was the only control power we had that would have any impact on an AV fight. Cool ST could stack up accuracy debuffs and be useful in that fight, partially making up for the fact that, oh, every other control power we had sucked wind.
How on gawd's green earth that made ST "overpowered" is beyond me. Other than that, it was a semi-sleep that you could only use after you used some other control power.
Woot.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No this is not true...only certain powers have crits.... Like blind is a Mag 3 hold it also has a mag 1 hold that hits 20% of the time so you can say it is mag 3 hold that is mag 4 20% of the time. There are others like this. But it is by no means in all sets and all AT's.
The above statement was not meant to say that only mez powers have crits I was just using a particular mez power as an example.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, thats a controller power. I would hope anyoen posting here is aware that controllers can get crit holds to hold a boss in 1 shot. I however, was questioning whether or not a boss normalyl takes a crit fear to be feared. I dont think they do. As for defenders getting crit holds, I believe geko said only controllers (and not defenders, blasters, or anyone else) can get crit holds to hold a boss in 1 shot.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've never had a crit Fear, but I don't have that much experience. Maybe ask mind controllers on teh Controller board?
[ QUOTE ]
From a role playing perspective, I should be able to open a door with my superstrength tanker. Or at least not get shoved by a pedestrian. Throw RP out the window, the rest of the game does. Moreover, this was what the old fear did, and it was relatively useless. Datamining showed it was rarely taken, and players didnt like it. Hence fear was changed. Have you ever heard the expression "paralyzed with fear"? Apply it here.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I mean, I've never heard the phrase "paralyzed in terror". I know that game can't always take Role Playing aspects into consideration, it's just not feasible. Our imaginations and perceptions are just too varied.
I try to not think about +5% here and -ACC there, and just play the game as if I was a Superhero. I know that not everyone plays that way, and I respect it. I am just saying, for my play style, enemies running away from ST makes sense.
Currently, this game is still more about button-mashing than character development, but I believe that it's heading that way. Hopefully, they'll be able to accomodate all of our individual styles.
I'm just a little curious as to what people think that an illusionist should be able to handle by himself without being overpowered. Not ST alone but an illusionist as a whole.
I'm not trying to flame or troll here I'd just like to see everyone on the same page. What one person considers underpowered another considers the norm.
It depends on the secondary. As Ill/Rad in the 30's and 40's, a challenging solo fight (90% wins, 10% running away when pets do somthing weird, no deaths) was:
Pair of +3 bosses.
8 +4 minions.
At least 3 +2 bosses, 4 +3 lts, and 10 +2 minions grouped together.
At +2, the groups I fought were ~5 +2 bosses, ~6 +2 lts, and ~10 +2 minions (CoT or Rikti mostly). That was my bread and butter solo, anything less than that was just filler.
Ill/Emp or Ill/FF wouldn't be a few steps behind IMX.
[ QUOTE ]
It depends on the secondary. As Ill/Rad in the 30's and 40's, a challenging solo fight (90% wins, 10% running away when pets do somthing weird, no deaths) was:
Pair of +3 bosses.
8 +4 minions.
At least 3 +2 bosses, 4 +3 lts, and 10 +2 minions grouped together.
At +2, the groups I fought were ~5 +2 bosses, ~6 +2 lts, and ~10 +2 minions (CoT or Rikti mostly). That was my bread and butter solo, anything less than that was just filler.
Ill/Emp or Ill/FF wouldn't be a few steps behind IMX.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ill/Kin is a bit better. Early 40s, I can usually take on 3 +3 bosses (assuming only one of them is CC) In general, add one +3 boss to what you've got there (again, with at most one or (with +1 mobs) two CC type bosses)
This is assuming that I've got two Phantasms and group inviso already up when I hit em, group-port into the middle of em, and "blind" the nastiest mind controller boss for all I'm worth, while using Fulcrum shift, Siphon Power, Transferrance and Spectral terror/Phantom Army whenever they are charged.
This particular character skipped "flash"...If I had that, I would probably add 3 or so minions and a Lt. as well to the "kill factor"
The Optimist says the glass is half full.
The Pessimist says the glass is half empty.
While they argue about it, the Opportunist comes along, drinks what's left, and removes all doubt. - Redwood
Alvays remember, schmot guy...any plan vere you lose you hat...is a BAD PLAN!
Fun battles, huh?
It wasn't an issue of "can I take them," but of "how long is it going to take" with +4 and +5 bosses, or more that 2 +3's. One of the bastards would always leave the debuff circle . . .
[ QUOTE ]
Fun battles, huh?
It wasn't an issue of "can I take them," but of "how long is it going to take" with +4 and +5 bosses, or more that 2 +3's. One of the bastards would always leave the debuff circle . . .
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, that brings up a good point... Scatter from ST really borks a few Controller Secondaries. I know with Radiation, the last thing I want is things scattering away from my anchor.
And for a Kinetics Secondary, it borks Fulcrum shift.
I'm sure there are other examples (snow storm with Storm for one) that suffer from this, but I only know the two sets, really.
Well I happily used ST today. I found a nice clump of Nems and Ricks shooting at each other and decided to solo them. Now a Warhulk and bunch of Caribiners isn't any problem, but add in six Headsmen Gunmen Lts and it could be a nuisance. Since they were in nice little formations shooting at one another I dropped ST in front of the lead Headsman and all the Headsmen ran off or teleported out. A few of the Nemesis turned to shoot at me but they got distracted by PA and then smooshed by the Phants. By the time any of the Headsmen returned the Warhulk was on it's last legs, and as they trickled back in one or two at a time they recived the individual loving treatment of my little psycho illusions.
A couple of months ago I was running that nice mission where all the enemies are Paragon Protecters at minion and Lt level instead of as bosses. I had a scrapper friend two levels lower then myself with me and she had a tank SKed to her, mainly to drive up the numbers but more people is always enjoyable. About half way through the mission we went into a room, the Phants threw a toggle anchor into another group, PA ran amok and pulled extra, Flash clipped someone in a close but previously unaggroed group, and in short order we had over thirty Protecters gunning for us and my nice little Rad heals weren't cutting it. I dropped two STs and backed around a corner. Enough stuff ran away that we could handle what was left, as the enemies started coming back they did so in smaller clusters that we could take down.
ST with scatter isn't a good thing in large AoE heavy groups, but solo or small groups it's quite useful to thin the herd. I've talked to other Illusion controllers in RL and in game, most of them never took it because they heard it was useless, but they've never tried or tested it either and have passed on the "heard it was bad" impression to other people because that's what they were told. Only two other controllers I've talked to actually had ST and they both liked it, they said what I do, that ST is a really situational but really useful terror weapon. After issue 3 and before the reversion patch my use of ST dropped to almost nothing, I found that having stuff stick around and shoot at me isn't all that useful in any size group.
The impression I've gotten in these pages and the previous threads in the Training Room is that people who think that scattering enemies is always bad hate ST. That and when the global fear power change made it an amazing mass immobilise/slow/debuff they respecced into it, and when ST changed back to what it had been, they complained. People who are happy, and were using ST successfully, haven't complained.
I dunno, I just don't see making ST only affect 1/3 th 1/4 the number of targets it used to as being a good thing. That and stuff is going to go back to sticking around and shooting at me with this. Why are we changing a power that was never broken? Why do people hate powers that they can't just mindlessly spam out all the time? I kind of hate to say it bit I think people will still be complaining about ST after this, it seems to be a bad compromise between having a pet and having just another fear cone like Dark and MC.
[ QUOTE ]
stuff
[/ QUOTE ]
i agree with this person. I think of spectral terror as an "oh crap" the phantom army did its aggro thing, and we are getting over-whelmed (kind of like fire rain, and ice rain). Hay wife, drop spectral terror please to save our butts.
and like i said before, it doesnt really scatter the bosses unless i turn on my cloak of fear, at which point, everyone scatters, but also cant hit much of anything either.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stuff
[/ QUOTE ]
i agree with this person. I think of spectral terror as an "oh crap" the phantom army did its aggro thing, and we are getting over-whelmed (kind of like fire rain, and ice rain). Hay wife, drop spectral terror please to save our butts.
and like i said before, it doesnt really scatter the bosses unless i turn on my cloak of fear, at which point, everyone scatters, but also cant hit much of anything either.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why isnt your wife using flash?
More importantly... and guys... please... TRY and follow this. The effect that EVERY other fear power does... the duck and cover effect... works JUST as well to keep you alive. What is so special about spectral terror that it needs to be worse, and scatter, when every other fear power produces this duck and cover?
[ QUOTE ]
Why do people hate powers that they can't just mindlessly spam out all the time?
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do people defend powers that just flat out are suckier than others of its type? Good for you, you found a sue for Spectral Terrible. Another fear power would have worked just as well. There is no "safe zone" advantage over other fears. you can rest in the middle of cowering mobs. There is no "object protection" advantage to sending them running over any other fear power. Cowering mobs do NOT attack protection objectives. There is no "thinning out" advantage over any other fear power. The cowering mobs are out of the fight unless attacked, in which case they sometimes retaliate. If you have single target attacks, there is no difference, you'll be cutting them down one at a time. If you want to use AE attacks, you dont want scattering. There is only potential disadvantages to scattering. They might not occur every fight, or at all for you. But there is no comparative benefit to scattering to warrant the potential drawbacks.
Gee maybe flash was already used and recharging?
As for spec terror, It has saved my team on a few occasions. But I still wanted a change. This change they are proposing now that I think about it more just might make it lots worse heh (hard to imagine). I am not a fan of scatter simply because my character already creates an enormous amount of scatter and any more is just not needed heh. However as an oh crap button it did do that job semi ok, except that half of them run far enough away and pull out a gun hehe.
I just respecced out of ST not because it was useless but because I just didnt have room in my build for a power that would see such little use. The irony is that I used the power more on the respec trial (that I was using to get rid of ST) then I had used it in about 10 lvls heh.
[ QUOTE ]
So why the double standard for ST? Why is it interior to all other fear powers, which provide equal or greater protection through cower/root? If the devs would come out and say "thats too powerful", then I could at least accept it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think geko has said that making ST an instant lockdown power is too powerful, in the opinion of the devs, by virtue of changing it from when it practically was one.
I'm not, nor did I ever, claim that ST is better than or the equal to FS or other fear powers. You're assuming that the devs were too stupid to give us better fear powers. It is equally likely simply they don't want us to have them, which is why they are tweaking ST so much.
In any event, as I said before, there is a difference between stating the power is broken, and stating that other powers are better. The question is not whether another hypothetical power would be better - thats a question for the suggestion box. The question is does ST provide sufficient benefit that its worth taking over taking nothing at all - on average across all Illusion controllers. Individual controllers will of course probably disagree on this point.
So when you tell me that other fear powers would be better, that isn't especially meaningful to me, because I'm not approaching ST from the perspective of "am I getting what I deserve, oh lookie at what they have over there." There is no double standard, there is just the one standard of judging the power on its own, without comparisons to the other fear powers.
I would only consider judging ST relative to other fear powers when considering the balance of entire sets, vis-a-vis the net ability of illusion vs the net ability of dark.
[ QUOTE ]
But its like they dont get whats actually useful in the game (ie, claiming scattering on blizzard is good control).
[/ QUOTE ]
Look at the situation with knockback, where so many people think it is totally worthless, and so many other people think its invaluable. There are quite a lot of things in the game that a lot of people think is just plain self-evident, except it aint.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
imo all powers should be thought of as..."man,how am i gonna get all 9 of my primary powers...all 9 of my secondary powers and all 4 of all the power pools?"
seems to me that all powers should be awesomely animated,unique and useful,and that is especially so for the pwers u get later in the heros career.
there is no reason for ST,jump kick,fast healing, just to name a few, should be skipped powers. they should all be used and have some use in the game.
in other games where ure lev 1 pwer gets bumped because its damage or usefullness is capped at say lev 5, then it is understandable. but in coh ure lev 1 power may be used all the way to lev 50
ST is an illusionary power,in its animation it screams and has hands...why cant the ST "grab" mob and scream or have some other type of effect? why cant it cast spells? cast some phantom armies of its own? its our game and our imagination,whats the problem!?
[/ QUOTE ]
just thought u should see my original post just in case u didnt believe me in this same post...
matter fact i also started my own post regarding ST,but of course nothing gets the attn like a post started by a dev