Tainted_Soul

[ QUOTE ]
"Sue"

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

Now for a hard question: How do you pronounce "Kheldian"?

I bet the 5 AT's is the lie.

Edit: I thought I should say WHY I think this is the lie:

At some point, either Recluse or States stated while there are AT's in CoV, they aren't the same as what you see in CoH. Something tells me there might even be less then 5!

States, this is definately a step in the right direction (although, i still think it's a bad idea on the whole). The other major issue not addressed here is the "lost XP" for when players are not in range. You said in a different thread this would be looked into. Any word on that?

Also, to make sure I read you right: As long as someone on your team gets XP for a kill, the entire team will get credit towards a Defeat X mission or a Badge count even if they don't get the XP, correct? (Assuming they're in the same zone, of course)

Edit: Oh! And one last part. Do missions also include TF's? Considering that these are already level restricted so that all players are within 5 levels of each other, I don't think they need this restriction. (As many of them have a number of Kill X mob missions).

[ QUOTE ]
I re-tested and then didn't have an chance to post for a couple of days, definite AoE effect on yellow and orange minions.

It looks good to use on lots of minions or small numbers of bosses and Lts. Unfortunately I'm probably going to drop it soon as it isn't as useful with multiple bosses and large mixed groups, and that was the only place I felt a need for more than my holds and two basic pets. I may pick it up again in the late 40s, but it looks like I'm going to get more mileage out of Lingering Rad or Choking Cloud.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed it has limited use on multiple boss groups.... but that's what EM Pulse is for. At least, IMHO.

I plan to use it as a secondary control. Mostly for when you're on a large team and you need to lock down a few more things. Also... it's just fun. It really is one of the best animations in the game.

I think I'm gonna have to give up Group Invis. I just don't see any other way to do it ^^; (My Illusionist was never the ideal teammate anyways )

Mmmmm, Geko! This is some tasty crow you're making me eat here!

Ok, I was wrong. I admit it.

Here's my findings from spectral terror:

- Recharge, Cost, et all is exactly the same
- When you cast ST, there's a Mag 1 Fear Aura around it. (I'm unsure if it pulses or not. Need to check. I don't think it does). This aura instantly causes all minions and underlings to cower. There is NO return fire by anything feared (thank you, Geko)! Boss's and Lt's are not affected by the aura, so they will return fire, however, they went after my decoys, not me.
- While it still uses the terrify cone animation, it is a single target fear it casts. I'm not sure if this is mag 2 or if it's also mag 1 stacking with the aura, but one hit will fear an LT. It takes multiple to fear a boss.
- This attack causes a minor amount of running. (Like 10 feet) As such, it's not really a threat to toggles (no moreso then your phants.)

In all, I would say this version rivals the I3 one we got. The powerful debuff is gone (which is fair), and it still provides an excellent amount of control. It would be nice if ST picked better targets for it's single target attack, but I think we wish all our pets were that way.

Tactics:

Unlike previous versions, this one isn't a huge agro magnet. You can alpha with it (assuming you're not dealing with too many LT's and bosses). I found this to be really usefull for when I already had PA out. I would cast ST in the middle of the group, and then drag in my pets. If PA was not out, I would still alpha with PA (obviously) and then throw in an ST for control.

Also, with the I3 version, I would try to make a "triangle" outside of the group I'm fighting with ST, to make sure everything got hit with the cone. You don't want to do that with this version. Cast this bad boy in the middle of the group you're fighting, to get the max effect of the aura. The ones he makes run won't go too far.

Occasionally I would get a runner that would get out of my little circle of debuffs. I'm not sure if this was caused by ST, or just your typical runner. I would just blind these guys and leave them to my phants.

Note, this was tested using just the default ACC. Mostly on green-yellow mobs. I didn't push it with oranges and reds (mostly because my mission didn't have any, and I was too lazy to go searching). Level seemed to make no difference to the aura, and does seem to be auto-hit (very nice).

Oh, I also played with SI. Drooooooool. What a GREAT power! I decided to test the improved invis against a Rikti drone. Basically, SI to a drone is what Stealth is to your average mob. You pretty much have to stand on its head for it to see you. I'm contemplating testing to see if it will stack with SS for complete invis. The end cost is high, though. I had to be a lot more careful with my toggles. It may require a second slot of end reduction. ::sigh:: dunno where I'm gonna find that ^^;

All in all, two thumbs up on these changes Geko. Anyone else want some pie? (Crow pie, that is)

P.S. The faster phant speed is great too. They also seem to prefer flying to running now (finally), so I was never waiting for them. Actually, once, they beat me to casting decoys in a group (I was impressed, they did a good job.)

Wait... it's good?

Damnit! Where am i going to fit SI now? >.<

::sigh::

Thank god I have tomorrow off. Gonna be a day full of testing!

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so how does wormhole work now exactly? Does it port everything in it's AE, port one target and disorient everything else in it's AE (in which case does it disorient around the target before or after it ports?), or is it just an AE disorient now? Inquiring minds want to know!

[/ QUOTE ]

AoE port and Disorient. It's raining minions!

Wow, that sounds like an excellent start and an unexpected treat!

[ QUOTE ]
No bots in the groups and 2 ST's out during the battle at one point nothing was cowering, everything ran and I did not see any type of ACC debuff.

Also tried on CoT's & Banished Panth missions again nothing cowered most things ran everything else put up a good fight. If there was an ACC debuff it was slight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, yeah, the current form of ST is pure crap in a box (box optional), and honestly, Geko's latest idea doesn't sound much better, but I'll give it a shot once it's on test.

[ QUOTE ]
Fear doesn't work on the little Nemisis robots. The others have a higher mag but it does work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jaegers make me cry. Can't Disorient em, can't fear em, and they blow up on death... grrrrrr

And yes, Nemesis just have a higher resistance to fear. It takes 2 applications to make a minion and LT. cower. Dunno about bosses.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah and it sounds like you could slow down your opponent with siphon speed, that's almost as good as increasing your speed.

TP Foe and Wormhole work, but what about Recall Friend?

[/ QUOTE ]

He said "No recall Friend", and I can deal with that, but:

But, Posi! PLEASE! Let me keep my SS stealth! I have more then one character who relies on this + stealth for invis.

Great, now a mission with an AV is timed...

Oh, let's not forget you need to defeat shadowhunter to get your Dimensional Warder badge.

Oh, don't forget you need the Dimensional Warder badge to get the Portal Jockey Accolade.

Gee, thanks for making it so if my team screws up this mission I get screwed out of a great accolade.

Way to go, Devs!

*Edit: BTW, this has stopped nothing. People will just herd Dreck's mission instead. Watch.

I remember when there was no such thing as the Hollows or the Shadow Shard.

I remember the riot of people trying to get their capes the night I2 came out.

I remember signing on as a tank was a garunteed way to get a team invite in 2 seconds. (Back in the City of Blasters days.)

I remember when Wolves didn't throw rocks, and monkey's weren't psychic.

I remember when people were screaming that the Outcast were overpowered. (Issue 2 release. They were toned down shortly after)

I remember people saying Hammidon was impossible to beat after they increased his Mez Resistance Magnitude.

I remember people saying Hammidon was impossible to beat after the 300' toggle change. (I'm sensing a pattern here.)

I remember the 5th Column.

[ QUOTE ]
Second, IMO... those who say ST wasnt too powerful after I3 are just bein humble, why else would ya want it back the way it was so badly

[/ QUOTE ]

Because a decent, cool looking power that I found myself having a use for in a fight was replaced with a flaming piece of do do that makes things run and pretty much renders my anchor based secondary useless.

Maybe that won't be true with the changes Geko's proposing, but from the way it sounds, it will be.

[ QUOTE ]
I think geko has said that making ST an instant lockdown power is too powerful, in the opinion of the devs, by virtue of changing it from when it practically was one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's not go putting words into the mouths of the developers. If Geko were to say "Yes, we felt the way Spectral Terror was behaving when Issue 3 was overpowered", that'd be one thing, but that never happened.

Maybe Geko felt the intent of ST was to have foes run, and had nothing to do with how powerful a tool it was?

I mean, I remember back when ST was on test, MizBHaven and I were trying to convince people it was worth taking at all. We had to give people tactics because most people were saying "The fact that they shoot every 7.5 seconds makes this power useless!" Now people are saying it was overpowered and the Devs feel this way too. Come on.

Until a red name says, "yes, We feel that ST having a cower effect only, with no scatter, is overpowered" I'm going to fight for a power that doesn't negate my secondary.

[ QUOTE ]
Fun battles, huh?

It wasn't an issue of "can I take them," but of "how long is it going to take" with +4 and +5 bosses, or more that 2 +3's. One of the bastards would always leave the debuff circle . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that brings up a good point... Scatter from ST really borks a few Controller Secondaries. I know with Radiation, the last thing I want is things scattering away from my anchor.

And for a Kinetics Secondary, it borks Fulcrum shift.

I'm sure there are other examples (snow storm with Storm for one) that suffer from this, but I only know the two sets, really.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fear works just like any other hold. AV's have a high resistance to it with their triangles up, Bosses require two hits to cower (unless there's a crit)

[/ QUOTE ]

Can dark defenders get fear crits? Because Ive feared bosses in one shot before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, all AT's have a 5% chance of hitting for a critical, except for Scrappers who have a higher chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can anyone else confirm this? I know for a fact its not true on damage. Moreover, I so routinely fear bosses in one shot, I dont think its just a 5% chance...

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I should have qualified that. Those are the "official" numbers that are going around the forums. As you know the devs (except for Geko) hate giving out numbers. While it does seem that it's more then 5% (especially as you get higher in level), I've yet to hear a different number.

I should have said "All AT's have a chance to Critical, although it's slightly higher for Scrappers".

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fear works just like any other hold. AV's have a high resistance to it with their triangles up, Bosses require two hits to cower (unless there's a crit)

[/ QUOTE ]

Can dark defenders get fear crits? Because Ive feared bosses in one shot before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, all AT's have a 5% chance of hitting for a critical, except for Scrappers who have a higher chance.

[ QUOTE ]
-Imob Groups of mobs, and prevented attacks unless attacked

[/ QUOTE ]
Except that ST's cone every 7.5 seconds was percieved to be an attack. There was no "hold" when I used ST. Now, maybe that changed when they added the debuff fix to fear (Debuffs used to awaken mobs from fear, now they don't), but that didn't happen until after the scatter returned.
[ QUOTE ]
-It also debuffed and stacked with itself -acc until the point the mob cudn't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is very true. It made the start of the battle much more interesting because they were still hitting then. Granted, there were ways around this. Personally, I'm willing to succeede that the stackable debuff was too strong. I've said all along I'd want ST to just use Fearsome Stare, which still has the acc debuff, but it doesn't stack (you can slot it, though.)
[ QUOTE ]
-Mobs that can't hit back with success, and can't move, are pretty much sitting ducks

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yes, this is pretty much the point behind the entire Controller AT. Flash does the same thing, only there's no retaliation at all. Again, if we remove the stackable debuff, ST becomes a good Secondary control tool. Not as good as your area hold, but still useful in battle.
[ QUOTE ]
-No defenses were designed for mobs against fear, unlike holds, since orgianlly it was an oh pooo power.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't true. Fear works just like any other hold. AV's have a high resistance to it with their triangles up, Bosses require two hits to cower (unless there's a crit), and monsters require an incredible magnitude to make cower (except for Hatched Krackens, but they already only have Boss level resistances).

Also, there are mobs that are resistant to fear. Nemesis are an example of this. If you were to cast fear on a group of nemesis soldiers, all you'd get is a ton of agro. The second hit would do the job, but resistances exist.

[ QUOTE ]
The proposed spectral terror basically destroys its usefulness for AoE. The power would still be very powerful if combined with an Imob but, obviously thats not within the Illusion bag of tricks.

I think it should just be made to not self stack. It would allow the mobs a better then smoke grenade chance of hitting, while not destroying AoE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, at least we agree at the core of the matter. I'm willing to accept that the devs felt that I3 Spectral Terror was overpowered. I may not agree, but I'm willing to work on this.

This is why I want Spectral Terror to just cast Fearsome Stare. This gives us the limited crowd control we're looking for without having an over powering debuff in the power.

Also, to be fair, I think the recast time of the power should be doubled. Make it every 15 second, so ST only gets 4 casts before it dies (as opposed to the 8 it gets now). This will require you to use more tactics against mobs with higher resitances, and keeps bosses a factor.

I think with those changes ST remains a useful power (no scatter, with an increased crowd control), but not over powered (The debuff doesn't stack however, it can be slotted like Fearsome Stare, and you don't have the "instant lockdown" some felt the old ST had. Also, ST will still no take agro, so those 15 second between casts will be a lot more interesting against Boss's and Fear resistant mobs.)

Am I crazy here?

[ QUOTE ]
I was just stating that it was an effective hold.

[/ QUOTE ]

not really, when you consider the Kracken can attack back with fear.

With Blind he's not moving anywhere.

Actually, Tar Patch isn't available to Illusion Controllers, as you can't choose Dark as a secondary (dear god, do I wish i could, though.)

That leaves Radiation and Storm summoning as the only two secondaries available with a slow component.

Personally, I'd rather ST be useful for Empaths, Force Fielders and Kineticists too.

And when you add in that Snow Storm is a toggle slow based off an anchor, and ST will cause things to scatter away from the anchor, Storm gets kinda screwed too. Not to mention that Freezing Rain will do a better job anyways.

[ QUOTE ]
You said: *Controlling -con mobs. Sheesh.*

Now you are the one who's high.

I can only assume that you are solo only. That you never team up and if you are in a super group, you don't help out your lower level brethren. Because if you do, and you have team mates who are 1-3 levels below you and they get jumped do you tell them "You're on your own boys, it is beneath me to bother with -con mobs. Let me know if you need a rez!"

You said:

Against -con mobs. How often at L39 does a Blaster or Scrapper fail to one shot any number of -con mobs?

True, and I am very happy that you always, in every situation at all times day or night have equal or higher level blasters/scrappers with you. I don't always have them available, so I adjust my playing style accordingly. Again, I may or may not find a use for it. We will see.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's consider the worse case scenario for your lower level teammates: The mobs are -1 to you and your teammates are -3. This means mobs are blue to you and orange to them.

Honestly, if you can't handle that on a team with just PA/Phants/Flash and your teammates are dropping due to oranges, I think we should go over your team tactics.

Now, if the mobs were yellow and orange to me, then I'm worried about my lower level teammates, because they're dealing with Reds and Purples, but we're no longer dealing with -con mobs.

I'm with Hanged, I'm seing no use to the cower aura for -con mobs.

And of course we don't know how things will work until it goes on Test. Believe me, when the patch notes come out saying this change has been made I plan to copy over and try it out with an open mind, but until then all I have is Geko's description which has left me underwhelmed.

While I agree with your post, to be fair Illusion has 2 "AoE" controls. Phantom Army is designed to be more of a control tool then damage. (Also, I don't think you need to qualify that you get 2 at 38 with Rad. All sets have that same option.)

However, this puts us on par with Gravity, which anyone who has seen the "Gravity: A serious discussion" thread knows that Gravity has some issues of it's own to deal with.

I was going to counter your points one by one, but I see Hanged beat me to it.

However, I keep reading about how ST's scatter is a "good situational power"... no it's not. Let's compare it to something that's actually a "good situational power": bonfire.

Ok, for those who don't know Bonfire is a location based AoE power (like ice slick or earth quake) from the fire control set. It provides a circle of knockback. Any foe that tries to enter the area gets blown away. So let the comparison began.

To start, I keep hearing people rave about how ST is a great "squishy safe zone" and great for "protecting objects, such as the reactor core". As you can see, the description of bonfire does these two exact things.

However, let's consider mob resistances for a second. What happens when ST attacks a fear resistant mob (such as Nemesis)? The mob is agroed to the controller (or hopefully PA if you have it out), and no cowering occurs. Basically, you've just pissed off a group for the next 7.5 seconds. Eventually the fear will be overcome, and things will flee.

What about Knockback resistant mobs for bonfire? Well, with bonfire, if you run into a knockback resitant mob... it gets BETTER! It then turns into Ice Slick or Earthquake, knocking all mobs up. (Don't you hate those ruin mages? Same deal). This is great against Malta Titans, and most AV's. Also, if you run into a mob that's +6 or more, they get the same deal! knock up.

Now, ST has a couple things going for it. It has a great debuff (which I've already said I'm willing to sacrifice for more control) and the cowering effect that eventually occurs should also help.

However, Bonfire isn't done yet! Let's go back to that Knockback it causes. Now, we're all Illusionists here (well, mostly), so we all know the value and the pain of knockback. We all also know how useful a wall can be with knockback. Same thing applies to bonfire. You can use it to pin mobs against walls, where they'll hopelessly bounce while your team takes them out at your pleasure. It's even better in a small room like you find in office missions. Everyone's safe in the middle while the mobs are flopping like fish pinned against the wall.

When you add to all this some of the other advantages bonfire provides (It knocks down flyers, but that isn't as relevant to an Illusionist as a fire, however it also does damage) it's pretty obvious which one wins the "situational power" war.

So basically, I'm not asking for an "uber" power here. I'm just asking for one that compares to at least bonfire. (Especially when you consider then Fire out controlls and out damages illusion as it is.)

So you want to make ST a sleep bot? (If they wake up when you attack them and don't go back until the power is cast again, thats a sleep.)

Ummm... no thanks, personally. Given that PA is coded to be as ADD as possible, and Phantasms' opening attack is a cone, I'm seeing little use out of this power.

Again, my favorite idea is just giving ST fearsome stare (Dark Servants gave it up! We'll take it!)