I was going to counter your points one by one, but I see Hanged beat me to it.
However, I keep reading about how ST's scatter is a "good situational power"... no it's not. Let's compare it to something that's actually a "good situational power": bonfire.
Ok, for those who don't know Bonfire is a location based AoE power (like ice slick or earth quake) from the fire control set. It provides a circle of knockback. Any foe that tries to enter the area gets blown away. So let the comparison began.
To start, I keep hearing people rave about how ST is a great "squishy safe zone" and great for "protecting objects, such as the reactor core". As you can see, the description of bonfire does these two exact things.
However, let's consider mob resistances for a second. What happens when ST attacks a fear resistant mob (such as Nemesis)? The mob is agroed to the controller (or hopefully PA if you have it out), and no cowering occurs. Basically, you've just pissed off a group for the next 7.5 seconds. Eventually the fear will be overcome, and things will flee.
What about Knockback resistant mobs for bonfire? Well, with bonfire, if you run into a knockback resitant mob... it gets BETTER! It then turns into Ice Slick or Earthquake, knocking all mobs up. (Don't you hate those ruin mages? Same deal). This is great against Malta Titans, and most AV's. Also, if you run into a mob that's +6 or more, they get the same deal! knock up.
Now, ST has a couple things going for it. It has a great debuff (which I've already said I'm willing to sacrifice for more control) and the cowering effect that eventually occurs should also help.
However, Bonfire isn't done yet! Let's go back to that Knockback it causes. Now, we're all Illusionists here (well, mostly), so we all know the value and the pain of knockback. We all also know how useful a wall can be with knockback. Same thing applies to bonfire. You can use it to pin mobs against walls, where they'll hopelessly bounce while your team takes them out at your pleasure. It's even better in a small room like you find in office missions. Everyone's safe in the middle while the mobs are flopping like fish pinned against the wall.
When you add to all this some of the other advantages bonfire provides (It knocks down flyers, but that isn't as relevant to an Illusionist as a fire, however it also does damage) it's pretty obvious which one wins the "situational power" war.
So basically, I'm not asking for an "uber" power here. I'm just asking for one that compares to at least bonfire. (Especially when you consider then Fire out controlls and out damages illusion as it is.)
While I agree with your post, to be fair Illusion has 2 "AoE" controls. Phantom Army is designed to be more of a control tool then damage. (Also, I don't think you need to qualify that you get 2 at 38 with Rad. All sets have that same option.)
However, this puts us on par with Gravity, which anyone who has seen the "Gravity: A serious discussion" thread knows that Gravity has some issues of it's own to deal with.
Yes and no, Singularity > Phantom Army when it comes to crowd control, so having Spectral Terror do what I suggested would put Illusion on-par with Gravity for control. Then they should fix gravity and I'd be happier with all my high-level trollers.
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Again, like all the other ST apologists, you fail to comprehend the futility of controlling -con mobs. If for some reason controlling -con mobs is important to you, I suggest you post your build, or your strategy, on the Controller forums so we can help you be effective.
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If ST worked the way geko is saying it is going to be changed to, then this strategy would have been reasonable from 26 to 32 (pre phantasms) for ill/rad:
1. Set up near the spawn point
2. Hit a good center target with RI
3. Hit the anchor with blind
4. Cast the PA at the anchor
then
5. Cast it into the group just prior to the PA evaporating.
Let it lock everyone down while you wait for PA to recharge.
or
5. Cast it on yourself (make sure the group is slightly out of range of the terrify)
When the PA expires, instead of having to run for it (or even if you do) the ST will act to kick them back a bit. Also, in larger groups runners do escape from PA aggro - especially in overlapping groups.
Especially in squishier groups, having the foes run a bit and then cower might be useful - hitting them with blind when they've rushed the blasters is also good, but then they stay held still in the middle of the squishies, when I would rather they run a bit forward, where they are more easier to keep track of.
It would be nice if the fear component of ST extended to higher level mobs, but that is not the same thing as saying its broken unless it does. I'm sure there are people who wish that SW didn't heal back, but thats just how it works. Evaporating damage is never "helpful" either, but that's life.
The devil is in the details, though; I can't say for sure how or if it will be really useful to me, especially at lvl 37. But I'm certainly not an ST apologist - I have enough on my plate defending knockback, defending fear at the same time would give me an aneurysm. Knockback, elude, radiation, fear, burn, invuln - why didn't I roll a fire/eng blaster and stick with that? 
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standard operating procedure for this ill/rad controller is
Tos PA to draw agro, Blind anchor, toss EF, go to town. If it gets hairy, or anchor resists multiple blind attempts, toss ST.
Thank you Geko for working to fix Spectral Terror and for telling us about the work you are doing on it.
I took Spectral Terror pre-I3 and I've always loved the graphics of the power, but pre-I3 it was a throw away power except for its pretty looks. There was almost no use for the power, so I respec'ed it out.
Post I-3 it was a very useful power and I respec'ed it in with my free respec. Then to my dismay, one day all the villains began running away again almost like the old Spectral Terror and I found it causes too much chaos to be useful. I am planning on respec'ing it out again if the new changes don't make it more useful.
I think the best thing that could be done is removing the running and making the power like it was post I-3. Scattering crowds are not an effective control tactic except in rare situations. But these suggestions are an improvement, especially if Spectral Terror does some damage as a 'Terrify Attack Power', which it seems Geko is suggesting may happen with the new changes. Giving the power some damage would be a great alternative to give the power some usefulness to compensate for the headaches you have with villains running away.
Whatever is done, a 29 level power should be more useful than the current design of the power.
Thanks again Geko for working on this,
Red Warlock, lvl 48 Illusion/FF Controller, Champion Server
Red Warlock
- "The Shadow Rune of the Warlocks" (Arc ID 124319).
- "The Legion of Mutants vs. The Iron Agents" (Arc ID 200364).
- "The Children of Astoria" (Arc ID 217499)
From my experience playing CoH (44 Ill/Rad, 34 Fire/EM, 35 DM/Inv) I have found that the more you can cluster the MoBs the better. The reason is that there are so many useful AoE powers (damage, holds, debufs etc) and you want to hit as many enemies as possible. Any power that scatters the enemy is a weaker power than one that does not (yes I think knockback powers are weaker than a straight damage powers, the advantage gained by knockback is negated by the scattered enemy).
If ST scatters the enemy in any way or form it will be so situational as to be useless. In any normal battle you want the energy torrents from the Phantasams to hit as many targets as possible, ST with runners will make it a hunt and kill each one individualy which is the worst thing possible for Illusion controllers. Also any debuf powers (Rad set for example) will negated by the scattered Mobs. If ST has runners it will end up in the discarded powers pile (with Fallout).
The problem with ST is that Mind controllers get Terrify. Hence, the Post-I3 ST was a god power compared to Terrify. Personally, I would them rather keep ST like it was (No Running) and boost Terrify in the Mind set with high Damage.
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[ QUOTE ]
Again, like all the other ST apologists, you fail to comprehend the futility of controlling -con mobs. If for some reason controlling -con mobs is important to you, I suggest you post your build, or your strategy, on the Controller forums so we can help you be effective.
[/ QUOTE ]
If ST worked the way geko is saying it is going to be changed to, then this strategy would have been reasonable from 26 to 32 (pre phantasms) for ill/rad:
1. Set up near the spawn point
2. Hit a good center target with RI
3. Hit the anchor with blind
4. Cast the PA at the anchor
then
5. Cast it into the group just prior to the PA evaporating.
Let it lock everyone down while you wait for PA to recharge.
or
5. Cast it on yourself (make sure the group is slightly out of range of the terrify)
When the PA expires, instead of having to run for it (or even if you do) the ST will act to kick them back a bit. Also, in larger groups runners do escape from PA aggro - especially in overlapping groups.
[/ QUOTE ]
How would that be better than just slotting PA for recharge, and recasting PA? Assuming you were worried about controlling even con and lower mobs, that is. (If you didn't slot PA for recharge, anything even con or lower is dead long before you need to worry about recasting PA.)
This is the key problem w/ the "new" ST. It only affects things that are uselessly weak in any meaningful way. Anything that is actually a threat to you, and so needs to be controlled, is only scattered.
We have strategies for "using" this, from the old ST days. You can cast ST behind the mobs, so they'll tend to run toward you. You can use ST to create a "safe" zone from melee mobs. But those are all weak.
I'm OK w/ ST being a bad power, but let's just not pretend that it isn't bad.
I think the changes that geko has posted should work just fine. I mean as long as the foes eventually tremble instead of just runing for the hills, I think it will be fine.
I understand the concern for it not working well with other powers, but I have been in plenty of different groups to know that there isnt always UBER AoE available anyway and as long as the mobs aren't attacking, it's a good thing 
I used ST pre I3 and thought is was an ok situational power. Using it post I3, I like it even better. In my opinion the changes that gecko is claiming are going to make it just fine and a nice addition to the crowd controll of the illusion set.
[ QUOTE ]
How would that be better than just slotting PA for recharge, and recasting PA? Assuming you were worried about controlling even con and lower mobs, that is. (If you didn't slot PA for recharge, anything even con or lower is dead long before you need to worry about recasting PA.)
This is the key problem w/ the "new" ST. It only affects things that are uselessly weak in any meaningful way. Anything that is actually a threat to you, and so needs to be controlled, is only scattered.
We have strategies for "using" this, from the old ST days. You can cast ST behind the mobs, so they'll tend to run toward you. You can use ST to create a "safe" zone from melee mobs. But those are all weak.
I'm OK w/ ST being a bad power, but let's just not pretend that it isn't bad.
[/ QUOTE ]
I threw it out as an example of a set of strategies that would work. Its probably a useless discussion to wonder whether its "better" or "worse."
But my own direct experience with the PA is that slotting for damage isn't foolproof - the PA don't always take even and +1 down - they always do for small 3 minion mission spawns, but not for overlapping groups (5-6 evens is often enough to split up the damage enough to leave a lot of them left behind) or the larger spawns in the zones. Slotting for recharge to get perma-PA means they'll hardly every kill anything, ever, especially at lower levels.
Having additional tricks in the bag is never bad. Spectral Terror (the proposed version) might be good, might be not so good. But the real question is whether or not it works. I've heard people tell me flash is worthless because it draws aggro. I happen to disagree, because my definition of broken is obviously different from someone who thinks flash is broken.
I think the ST that induces a massive "flee" is broken. I don't think (from the sound of it) that the proposed ST is broken. What I don't know is if the proposed ST is appropriate for my playstyle. But I'm ok with having powers that aren't appropriate for my playstyle, and wouldn't presume to judge them only on that basis. Bonesmasher isn't really appropriate for my playstyle either - even if you gave it to me for free, I'm unlikely to use it. That doesn't make it broken.
[ QUOTE ]
Anything that is actually a threat to you, and so needs to be controlled, is only scattered.
[/ QUOTE ]
It sounds like higher level foes will be both scattered (a little) AND controlled:
[ QUOTE ]
• It has a Terrify attack power. This power can affect more powerful foes (even those not affected by the Cloak of Fear) and should cause most foes to run in fear, but only for a very short distance, and it should only affect a couple of targets (narrowed the cone area significantly, and decreased the run away time). The affected foes should only run far enough as to get out of range of the ST Terrify attack, so ST will switch to another target.
• Once the affected foes run out of range, they will tremble in Fear (even those not affected by the cloak of fear).
[/ QUOTE ]
This is what I'm basing my impressions on. A little scatter and a little control sounds like what illusion is all about. IF (and this is a big IF, I know) it works like it sounds, then there is a higher level element to ST. What I'm hoping for is that the ST, given a choice, will always target the highest level foe it can in range, so the terrify has the maximum benefit. If it doesn't during testing, then that would be something I would suggest.
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That's a lot of scatter, unless it's Terrify is only single-target, in which case it's almost no control.
Either way, marginal at best. It's just old ST, with cower.
Well Hanged_Man, as I said and you must have missed, there will be times to use it and times not to use it. This brings us back to another point in my post you may have skipped over:
We won't really know how it works until it goes live (or at least on test) Until then, whining and complaining about it is quite irrelevent.
I often group with other good players and won't encounter any use for it. I will frequently solo missions and not have need of it. What will matter in the long run is how it will work when the update is released. I play with the mission difficulty at maximum and have not come up against a -con mob in a while. So, if the changes happen as Geko describes them it may or may not be useful. We will see.
Yes, my Phantasms and Phantom army kick the stuffing out of most everything. I have 3 Phantasms out and Phantom Army slotted to be out permenantly. I am a walking armageddon. But where's the fun in using only 2 powers? I use a lot of my available powers NOT because they are the uber-be-all-end-all-bestest powers in the set, but because I have fun with them.
You said: *Controlling -con mobs. Sheesh.*
Now you are the one who's high.
I can only assume that you are solo only. That you never team up and if you are in a super group, you don't help out your lower level brethren. Because if you do, and you have team mates who are 1-3 levels below you and they get jumped do you tell them "You're on your own boys, it is beneath me to bother with -con mobs. Let me know if you need a rez!"
You said:
Against -con mobs. How often at L39 does a Blaster or Scrapper fail to one shot any number of -con mobs?
True, and I am very happy that you always, in every situation at all times day or night have equal or higher level blasters/scrappers with you. I don't always have them available, so I adjust my playing style accordingly. Again, I may or may not find a use for it. We will see.
No, not every situation will need it.
Yes, the are other powers in the game and our power set that are better.
No, I did not say higher mobs cowering would be a bad thing.
Yes, other controllers have some better powers, some have worse.
I actually do see your point, but in being so overtly arrogant about it, really takes away a lot from your post. No need to be so insulting just because I and others don't agree with you. Lighten up just a tad?
Squiffy
[ QUOTE ]
You said: *Controlling -con mobs. Sheesh.*
Now you are the one who's high.
I can only assume that you are solo only. That you never team up and if you are in a super group, you don't help out your lower level brethren. Because if you do, and you have team mates who are 1-3 levels below you and they get jumped do you tell them "You're on your own boys, it is beneath me to bother with -con mobs. Let me know if you need a rez!"
You said:
Against -con mobs. How often at L39 does a Blaster or Scrapper fail to one shot any number of -con mobs?
True, and I am very happy that you always, in every situation at all times day or night have equal or higher level blasters/scrappers with you. I don't always have them available, so I adjust my playing style accordingly. Again, I may or may not find a use for it. We will see.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, let's consider the worse case scenario for your lower level teammates: The mobs are -1 to you and your teammates are -3. This means mobs are blue to you and orange to them.
Honestly, if you can't handle that on a team with just PA/Phants/Flash and your teammates are dropping due to oranges, I think we should go over your team tactics.
Now, if the mobs were yellow and orange to me, then I'm worried about my lower level teammates, because they're dealing with Reds and Purples, but we're no longer dealing with -con mobs.
I'm with Hanged, I'm seing no use to the cower aura for -con mobs.
And of course we don't know how things will work until it goes on Test. Believe me, when the patch notes come out saying this change has been made I plan to copy over and try it out with an open mind, but until then all I have is Geko's description which has left me underwhelmed.
Most of the time, when I am helping out lower level players, I am fighting maxxed stuff, they are -5 or -6 to the enemies, they buff me and stay out of the way. So I whole-heartedly agree with the uselessness of cowering -con mobs.
*edit* Also, 2 Phantasms (1 recharge, 5 damage, tactics running) will "1-shot" blue minions with their energy torrents, they drop quicker than the activation time for spectral terror, so why waste the end?
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, if you can't handle that on a team with just PA/Phants/Flash and your teammates are dropping due to oranges, I think we should go over your team tactics.
[/ QUOTE ]
ROFL, that is so true!
[ QUOTE ]
If ST worked the way geko is saying it is going to be changed to, then this strategy would have been reasonable from 26 to 32 (pre phantasms) for ill/rad:
1. Set up near the spawn point
2. Hit a good center target with RI
3. Hit the anchor with blind
4. Cast the PA at the anchor
then
5. Cast it into the group just prior to the PA evaporating.
Let it lock everyone down while you wait for PA to recharge.
or
5. Cast it on yourself (make sure the group is slightly out of range of the terrify)
When the PA expires, instead of having to run for it (or even if you do) the ST will act to kick them back a bit. Also, in larger groups runners do escape from PA aggro - especially in overlapping groups.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why the hell would I want to do this vs the standard fear lockdown that other fear powers have? This whole safe zone thing is pure garbage. I can rest in a group of mobs I hit with fearsome stare. Protecting an object? Again, fearsome stare stops all attacks. If they would have run, they will cower, producing the exact same effect, but without any annoying scatter.
[ QUOTE ]
Especially in squishier groups, having the foes run a bit and then cower might be useful - hitting them with blind when they've rushed the blasters is also good, but then they stay held still in the middle of the squishies, when I would rather they run a bit forward, where they are more easier to keep track of.
It would be nice if the fear component of ST extended to higher level mobs, but that is not the same thing as saying its broken unless it does. I'm sure there are people who wish that SW didn't heal back, but thats just how it works. Evaporating damage is never "helpful" either, but that's life.
[/ QUOTE ]
So why the double standard for ST? Why is it interior to all other fear powers, which provide equal or greater protection through cower/root? If the devs would come out and say "thats too powerful", then I could at least accept it. But its like they dont get whats actually useful in the game (ie, claiming scattering on blizzard is good control).
If mobs had aura buffs like leadership, shadowfall, steaming mist etc then you mgiht not want them bunched up, but very few do (none i can think of aside from Dev Earth).
[ QUOTE ]
You said: *Controlling -con mobs. Sheesh.*
Now you are the one who's high.
I can only assume that you are solo only. That you never team up and if you are in a super group, you don't help out your lower level brethren. Because if you do, and you have team mates who are 1-3 levels below you and they get jumped do you tell them "You're on your own boys, it is beneath me to bother with -con mobs. Let me know if you need a rez!"
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you for some reason not using your phants? Because they'll one shot anything that low...We're not talking controlling mobs equal level to you with some lower level players around, we're talking controlling -1 or lower mobs. Otherwise known as gnats to eb swatted down. I dont even typically hold +2-+3's in groups...
I'm going to wait to see how good this "runs out of range then cowers" power is before I say whether it's good or bad.
Let me put it this way: Dark defenders LOVE Fearsome Stare. Yes, it draws aggro (one shot), but it lasts long enough to be perma-applied on most groups. In other words, as a fear, it's a nice long-term lockdown power.
If someone runs out of ST's range and then one-shots me because I forgot about him, I deserve it. Same happens if I Blind someone and then forget about him. The real questions that I wonder about are:
1: How good is the "not far out of range"? Are we talking about "1-4 steps", or "1-4 ROOMS" in a door mission?
2: How large is the cone? Heck, at this point, I want a nice LARGE cone, since I have no real use for this power against -con mobs. I want it to fear ALL the even and higher cons, not slowly hit one or three at a time with a narrow cone. I want to be able to put it down on one side of a large group that isn't otherwise controlled, and know that the entire group will run to the other side, and stop there, not in dribs and drabs.
3: Most importantly. HOW LONG DOES THE FEAR LAST? If it's as long as Fearsome Stare, then we're talking some serious control... slotted up, people may be cowering for 30+ seconds, long enough to chain ST with Flash so that every mob is mostly locked down. Mostly because there will be periods when the Flash wears off, and they flee from the current ST. But if it doesn't last very long, if it's more a "run away now, cower for 10 seconds, then start fighting", then it's a scatter tool and useless.
In short, I disagree with people who aren't willing to pay a price for their control. I'm willing to get a scatter as long as it means that I can put down one or two STs in the room, and have mobs run from corner to corner, for as long as I'm willing to maintain the STs. It's a reasonable price to pay for a power that, with hardly any slotting, is "perma". And one that will reapply itself to work on bosses. And one that will fire again to hit what it missed.
But I'm not willing to pay that price of scattering and "soft control" if the duration of the control isn't worth it. I want the enemies cowering long enough to make it worth having scattered them.
Frankly, it may be a Terror, but I don't see why its wail couldn't be turned to an area Confuse effect. Fear next to it, and Confuse in a cone. Or, heck, the reverse. Confuse next to it, and Fear in a cone.
[ QUOTE ]
Well Hanged_Man, as I said and you must have missed, there will be times to use it and times not to use it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Times to use it:
1. Team is getting too much experience and killing mobs too easily. Time for ST!
2. Need to work on my Debt Badge.
3. Want a kewl effect for a dance party.
4. Want to show how I can get 16 pets out at once.
5. Umm. Can't think of another one. (not entirely true, Respec might be handy, and some trials)
Edit - Lighten up? I'm just telling you how very, very wrong you are. I'm sorry I can't think of "nice" ways to do that, but I really don't know how to say "Holding -con mobs is a waste of time," any nicer than that, and people still seem to take issue with it.
finally found a decent use of ST...we were fighting de's on a train mission. with me as the only healer with rad aura(which dont make me a healer atal) it was taking us awile to take down mobs.
not only that our lowest lev member was our highest damage dealer,which means,he was taking more damage then he was causing. and he was causing more damage then we were taking.
enter ST. i was dropping ST in the middle of large grps and it was holding the bees so they wouldnt slow us. and though it did scatter some mobs,by the time we finished killing the ones that didnt run, the ones that did run came back,and they were much more manageable.
also, with the ghost face they were getting the acc debuff so they werent hitting us as much.
i was surprised in the first place that they didnt mind me putting ST out. and after putting it out,i asked if it was of any help. they said it was. so cool,i found a use,bring on the DE's!
Kewl, we can be beekeepers! Yay.
That's a very creative way to use ST, though. Kudos to you!
[ QUOTE ]
Times to use it:
1. Team is getting too much experience and killing mobs too easily. Time for ST!
2. Need to work on my Debt Badge.
3. Want a kewl effect for a dance party.
4. Want to show how I can get 16 pets out at once.
5. Umm. Can't think of another one. (not entirely true, Respec might be handy, and some trials)
[/ QUOTE ]
Once you have Phantom Army, you will find that in really big fights PA has a tendency to run out before the fight is over, leaving you standing right in the way of a bunch of angry villains. Spectral Terror is my oh sh.. I'm about to die power. It has saved me from debt on a number of occasions.
No you won't.
If you have PA slotted w/ 6 recharge, it's basically permanent. If you don't have PA slotted w/ 6 recharge, you'll be wailing out so much damage you won't care.
ST is the worst "Oh [censored]" power in the game. I'm surprised that, on balance, it's saved you from debt more often than it's killed you, but maybe you just use it better than everybody else I've ever talked to.
Ok, I've read this thing and all I can come down to is this:
This excludes mind (if you play mind, i'm sorry, tough break)
Fire/Ice/Earth get 1 knockdown aoe
Fire/Earth get 1 disorient AOE
Fire/Ice/Earth/Gravity get 1 immob AOE
All get 1 hold AOE
Ice gets 1 sleep AOE
Gravity gets 1 Phase shift AOE
*Gravity gets Singularity
Fire/Earth gets 4 AOE controls
Ice gets 4 AOE controls (3 good)
Gravity gets 3 AOE controls (2 good)
Illusion gets 1 AOE (2 after 38 with Radiation)
Personal opinion, I don't see why giving illusion a 2nd aoe control power at 28 is a big deal when it only has 1. "Well Illusion is a "Pet controller", not a crowd controller". Fire/Earth get the most crowd control, Fire is a "pet controller" too.
Make the Spectral Terror Fear (tremble / no run), make it work like Choking Cloud (1 toHit every 5 seconds, 50% BTH, 5 second duration), and I will use it, with our without the acc debuff. Anything less and it's useless unless you are an underachieving "pet controller".
I'd like to see it changed, since, in my opinion, that's the only way the power will be useful at all in PVP (how do you make a player run away?). But if it isn't changed, oh well, it's still a useless power that I just won't use. That's from my 50 levels experience, since people seem to question that around here.