CoH is doing things others wont do!
By
187nut,
Posted on: 2005-02-05 11:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Thought I'd pop in and give you my opinion...
I believe that you all are not just fans but customers. Because of that, I SHOULD listen to you. I SHOULD communicate with you. That's part of what you're paying for, after all.
It's easy to get away from doing chats, interviews, reading the boards and become absorbed with game design only. But I personally try to fight that temptation and be as open as possible.
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Now THAT is funny!
Your voluminous comments on the Rage fiasco , responses to the Terra Volta Trial success rate with UberBosses (i.e. NONE after either change went Live) speaks otherwise.
I fully understand you don't have to agree with us, but unless you comment ("I'm reading these posts, I have no detailed comments or responses at this time.") at all, that ain't communication.
Easy to Talk the Talk, now..... Walk the walk.
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I fully understand you don't have to agree with us, but unless you comment ("I'm reading these posts, I have no detailed comments or responses at this time.") at all, that ain't communication.
Easy to Talk the Talk, now..... Walk the walk.
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With all due respect, asking for responses such as you listed above seems rather pointless to me. We already know the developers read the forums; even the majority of people who are dissatisfied with the game for some reason seem to acknowledge this fact.
Posting just to say they have nothing to say is the exact level of communication that has been offered by nearly every other MMORPG development team to date.....and frankly, it stinks. I personally would prefer the developers to post when they have meaningful information to share and work on developing new content, rather than post hundreds of form-fed messages that tell us nothing.
There have been some changes made to the game lately which I really dislike, but I have absolutely nothing but respect for the manner in which the Cryptic staff treats its player base. That is the resaon why I am still maintaining my account despite the fact that I am taking a prolonged break from the game.
To put it quite simply...
You cannot please all the people all the time.
It is a nifty idea, but simply cannot be done. Considering this thread indicates more people (myself included) that seem happy with the level of customer services that the DEV team has provided as opposed to the number of people that are unhappy with it, then I feel justified in feeling that a majority of people are being properly cared for and serviced.
You have an issue with the game. So do others. Yet even with the combination of issues that people may have about this game, I am still feeling firm that it is a considerable minority in comparison to the happy customers of this game.
Still... as with any company... the dollars will display the satisfaction level people have for the service. They are still in business, and I have no doubt they will be for quite some time. Least I hope so... because I am happy with and satisfied with their game.
There are problems? Sure... so mention them in the proper forums, and hopefully they will get read and addressed. Issue bug reports and proper petitions. It will be considered and address if it is found to be a problem affecting the game world as a whole.
Rome wasn't built in a day, nor even a year I am sure. Yet it has been just short of a year since it has been released, and this is quite the impressive world to be a part of. There has been so much forward momentum I have been stunned! So many player concerns have been addressed in one way or another, and in an attempt to not only give them what they want... but also to maintain game balance overall so it is still fair to everyone. All this work in balancing and repair... and all while still stacking on new bricks to build world at the same time! Remarkable! Above that they are building this world, and working at such a furious pace... and still have time to ask people how they like their house while they are still building it. Time for idle chat, and even socializing to an extent. You think they were a hundred handed being for all the things they have done, but then again it is not just one person... but an incredible team.
I am impressed. So much so that I wish I could work as a part of that team, but it is not quite my field. Yet I am happy enough to play the "work in progress" product they have designed. I am looking forward to how it grows.
I am only guessing... but I have a vague feeling that a majority of the players of this great game feel the same. Least at some level.
Grumble or no...
I bet I will be seeing you around in the game still...
x Jeremy M.
Global Handle: @JeremyM
City of Heroes LiveJournal Community
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My INV scrapper and tanker are both about 200% more awesome post I-3. So maybe you could tone down the shrieking histrionics just a tad.
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Meh... he was just the required Troll-per-Thread thing that all Forums have.
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. 
Lionsbane, you are making several false statements here.
First, you are touting the whole thing as a major nerf to the whole set and that he never cared anything about what you wanted. Temp Invuln and Unyielding no longer mutually exclusive. Unyielding granting mobile status protect (albeit slow) was something HIGHLY desired. It was granted to be mobile and that's a nerf?
The change to Invincibility: have you even read the original description in the published manual that game with the game upon release? "While active, gives Defense bonus (except vs. Psionic attacks) and Accuracy bonus, for each foe in melee range." I don't read ANY obligation that it should affect your defense to ranged attacks just because something is in melee range. So instead of complaining that it isn't granting all this other stuff at full effect that it never promised anymore... be thankful that they are giving you more than was originally described?
Perma powers: I don't agree with the mindset that any power with a drawback to use (stun, left weakened, etc) such as Moment of Glory, Unstoppable, Rage, or even Hasten to be permanent. Should I whine that my click attack powers with long animations don't even start charging again until the effect is completed?
also, the way you mentioned his discussion with the scrappers (there wasn't really a discussion) sounded like you say he talked with us. I don't doubt that he listened, but he didn't do much talking (at least not on the regen board)
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Lionsbane, you are making several false statements here.
First, you are touting the whole thing as a major nerf to the whole set and that he never cared anything about what you wanted. Temp Invuln and Unyielding no longer mutually exclusive. Unyielding granting mobile status protect (albeit slow) was something HIGHLY desired. It was granted to be mobile and that's a nerf?
The change to Invincibility: have you even read the original description in the published manual that game with the game upon release? "While active, gives Defense bonus (except vs. Psionic attacks) and Accuracy bonus, for each foe in melee range." I don't read ANY obligation that it should affect your defense to ranged attacks just because something is in melee range. So instead of complaining that it isn't granting all this other stuff at full effect that it never promised anymore... be thankful that they are giving you more than was originally described?
Perma powers: I don't agree with the mindset that any power with a drawback to use (stun, left weakened, etc) such as Moment of Glory, Unstoppable, Rage, or even Hasten to be permanent. Should I whine that my click attack powers with long animations don't even start charging again until the effect is completed?
also, the way you mentioned his discussion with the scrappers (there wasn't really a discussion) sounded like you say he talked with us. I don't doubt that he listened, but he didn't do much talking (at least not on the regen board)
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Khiara,
He did respond on the scrapper boards basically telling everyone to calm down and that the changes weren`t set in stone.
My point doesn`t revolve about the nerf itself.
But I will answer your points.
Of course it`s a nerf. Unless you`re 41+ what`s the endurance like now? Endurance is one of the core powers. We`re pre issue 1 now. That in itself is a major nerf.
How many slots are you having to divert to compensate for the extra defenses required to match your old build? (if you were perma unstop?) This takes away from where you`d ideally like them.
If you do use unstop, how do you like suddenly having to back right the way out of a fight (teamed fights can be extensive) therby dragging the baddies into your comrades (especially in close quarters) and crippling your sidekick?
Yes, Unyeilding is improved. I can see that pre 32 many will feel that is a major improvement. (although I feel a lot of the change is asethetic. In some ways I was happier when I was immobile but I had far more endurance.)
But I had perma Unstoppable, which made the current (much weaker )unyeilding redundant.
So I was nerfed.
You state yourself that you were not a perma fan so with respect I can only say that as you were unaffected by the change, your comments are subjective and unfair.
Please dont even mention the manual where it said I would be the big man of the team with a powerful offensive.
But my point wasn`t about the nerfs themselves. It was about the unbelievably flippant and arrogant way Statesman went about implementing them.
The designers of this game do a great job of listening to its fans without caving unduly to board noise. Everyone I know who plays it and sticks with it is impressed with the balanced and interesting power sets, a credit to their testing and balancing.
Those I've known who have left the game have always had one universal complaint, and that is the "sameness" of mission styles and layouts. I think this is being addressed slowly over time, and I hope more is done to address this in the future so they come back to reevaluate the game in the future.
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But my point wasn`t about the nerfs themselves. It was about the unbelievably flippant and arrogant way Statesman went about implementing them.
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It's easy to criticize when your not on the other side of the fence, huh?
So you feel extremely vulnerable because you have to rely on teammates and passive powers for a bit now? How did you even make it to that level? Did you respec out of all of your other defenses? What are you fighting that outlasts the duration of Unstoppable?! Tanks do have a powerful offensive. Not as extreme as Blaster offense or Scrapper... and not as extreme as Tank defense... but Tank attacks are still fairly solid and carry some useful effects on many of them (especially with many of the knockbacks being changed to knock down/up) Are you aware that at higher levels, Tanks will also heal 40% more hp/sec than a scrapper? (excluding regen) This is due to their 40% more hp (which is a significant boost to defense even without having a higher resist cap) just ask a blaster/controller/defender how much they would love 40% more of their hp for free(which would incidentally put them above scrappers who have only about +32% over them at 50) The only nerf I see with tanks is that they made Taunt AoE without option to single-taunt (when their attacks also did that). It makes it impossible to pull singles or small-groups of mobs from a larger group without a pool power.
As for having to take a break when Unstoppable is approaching end of duration, I may know better than you think what it is like. Before they undid the boss damage increase, I had to step away from combat as a REGEN so I didn't just die... I had to do that EACH AND EVERY time a boss hit me! Those bosses had no trouble hitting me for 80% and could just as easily follow it up with another 80% hit (even if I had healed half from one hit the other would drop me) additionally, there were a number of them that would casually one-shot me (even with Dull Pain on)
I'll admit, I play a Dark/Regen scrapper... hadn't reached Moment of Glory. Regen is far more vulnerable than people realize. We are either up or we're down at higher levels (without Resilience+Tough at least). Endurance is a MAJOR concern for regen as well... it powers our major defenses (which are both QUITE the endurance beasts) if we lose them (again, without Resilience at least) we go down easily within 2 seconds if there is much coming our way. Regen doesn't have much to fall back on if they or Moment drop. Fast Healing is marginally more effective than Health and I don't know of anybody who considers that a solid defense. Sure, we have Resilience... but it guards against only smashing/lethal damage and does less than Resist Physical Damage does (caps at 16.5% resistance with 6 Resistance SO according to HeroicFedifensor's Regen guide)
Perma powers... my opinion is no more or less subjective than yours (an opinion basically being a subjective interpretation by definition). You live by them, I PREFER to avoid them. I think they contradict their purpose. I would prefer they made them toggles if they intended to allow them to be active significantly (like they did with Integration early on btw) I made no statement that I will never have them. If the game ever revolves around perma-clicks to play I'll very likely leave.
And to respond to your comment about how they implemented changes... CoH does something no other online I've seen does in letting us play and test the changes before they implement them on the live servers. What is so arrogant about letting us help test their material beforehand instead of just slapping us with it and then they can START to look into how to patch it a month down the road when they have sufficient data to look at of IF there is a problem? (followed by another month of figuring out what the problem is, how severe it is, brainstorming how to approach fixing the problem, deciding which approach won't make everybody mad, and finally another month coding in a patch to work on it and doing the preliminary testing)
The team allows us to help by letting us test things out (giving them data to interpret) they also listen to our concerns/thoughts/ideas/problems with things being tested. Yeah, they may decide something that goes against our personal wishes, but it's still a helluva lot more fan-involved than ANY other game I've heard of.
The fact that Statesman could, in some fantasy world, be currently working alongside Lord British sends chill down my spines.
CoH: CoV meets UO: The Tankmage, Platemage, and Archmage era of '97 to '99.
Explo, Eb, Equip Hally, HEADSPLITTER, chuck a 'nade/purple bottle of love.
Oh man, i'm going to write some of this down, then all i'll need is millions in funding, skill and "coffee."
I've been meaning to ask, Zero... where exactly is that avatar from?
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I've been meaning to ask, Zero... where exactly is that avatar from?
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Weeeelllll, you didn't ask me, but zero's avitar is from "Office Space". The avitar is in the prosses of beeting the crud out of a defective copy machine.
The sad part is I think I could have fixed the problem in about 5 min.
My life is sad <sigh>
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I've been meaning to ask, Zero... where exactly is that avatar from?
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Weeeelllll, you didn't ask me, but zero's avitar is from "Office Space". The avitar is in the prosses of beeting the crud out of a defective copy machine.
The sad part is I think I could have fixed the problem in about 5 min.
My life is sad <sigh>
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Ahhhh.
I still need to see that movie.
But you fans of Office Space might be interested in these new "action figures" called The Cubes
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Ahhhh.
I still need to see that movie.
But you fans of Office Space might be interested in these new "action figures" called The Cubes
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lol. And in other news. It has been anounced, that in the next version of the Sims you toon will recieve W-2's and will have to go through hundreds of pages of tax forms (in Sim-speak)
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But my point wasn`t about the nerfs themselves. It was about the unbelievably flippant and arrogant way Statesman went about implementing them.
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It's easy to criticize when your not on the other side of the fence, huh?
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Except I and the other higher Level Invul Tankers WERE on the other side of the fence. The receiving end.
They did exactly what I said they did. Asked opinion as to how to imprve Tankers (after months of Tankers asking for changes) and then from left field announced sweeping nerfs. During the announcement and the changes goihg live they never at any point (except Statesmans flat explanation) spoke to any Tanker in a months worth or enflamed boards. And those boards were very very alive.
It was quite an amazing excercise in arrogant PR.
Assuming this is moderated (send your questions to X and he'll forward them to Y), then this is very common in MMOs.
CoH does do things that others don't, though. More importantly, they let players do things that others don't. Most developers are afraid of their players, eventually adopting an us against them mentality. The CoH devs work with their players, giving them freedoms that most would not.
Scorus
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They did exactly what I said they did. Asked opinion as to how to imprve Tankers (after months of Tankers asking for changes) and then from left field announced sweeping nerfs.
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I'm going to chime in here with what I think is the problem. "Improve" tankers does NOT mean make them stronger/better. In the overall scheme of things, *balance* is most sought after by the Devs.
The wanted to, and were set in stone, with changes that brought Tankers more inline with balance. Asking how to "Improve" Tankers would be to off set their already planned changes; a little give and take scenario.
Or maybe, take the reverse of that. They saw what people were asking for (for the most part......can't please everyone) and thought the requests were reasonable. Modifying the class to something a little more liked, they *had* to make changes that allowed for balance.
Either way, there *has* to be give and take. Not everyone will be pleased; that will never happen.
I've already forgotten about most of you
Just the Free patch updates would have been enough in my book to set them apart. While I might not agree that each Issue is as big as an expansion pack in another game 3 issues is more than an expansion and not having to cough up another $50 sets a high standard for other MORPs to try and match.
I just couldn't conceive of Sony ever doing that unless the entire industry changed. But games like CoH with free updates and Matrix Online with it's continuing storyline (not to discount CoH's stories but CoH doesn't revolve around a single story) are setting the bar high for other developers. It will be interesting to see if companies like Sony and Blizzard will try and respond or if they just try and ignore them and hope fans don't notice. 
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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Just the Free patch updates would have been enough in my book to set them apart. While I might not agree that each Issue is as big as an expansion pack in another game 3 issues is more than an expansion and not having to cough up another $50 sets a high standard for other MORPs to try and match.
I just couldn't conceive of Sony ever doing that unless the entire industry changed. But games like CoH with free updates and Matrix Online with it's continuing storyline (not to discount CoH's stories but CoH doesn't revolve around a single story) are setting the bar high for other developers. It will be interesting to see if companies like Sony and Blizzard will try and respond or if they just try and ignore them and hope fans don't notice.
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On Everquest 2, Sony has made at least three major updates since launch which added tons of new content (quests, dungeons, new art assets, new spells and powers and the like) for free.
I think Statesman is great for posting, but honestly, he only posts a bit more than the devs of the other two MMOs I play. Both are SOE titles and the developers in both EQOA and EQ 2 are very active on the boards and provide tons of free content on a regular basis.
Honestly, I think the devs here are a bit too permissive. The Winter Lord event was a good example. When they realized that you could get a level 1 character to 20 inside of a few hours, they should have taken the servers down and fixed that immediately. Exploit patching is just a bit too slow for my book.
Other than that, I'm very glad to see that Statesman is being more careful with what he says and that he doesn't make any promises anymore. The whole Regen scare of 2004 still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I believe that you all are not just fans but customers. Because of that, I SHOULD listen to you. I SHOULD communicate with you. That's part of what you're paying for, after all.
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Thank you very much Statesman. That is a big reason why I have stayed with COH so long. When I was playing Everquest (years ago, after it first came out), the game developers had the attitude, "Its our game. You play it our way. Who cares what the players think." And this was really reflected in how they answered questions and posted on their message boards. 
Champion Heroes: The Wu Jen Adept(50)/Major Madcap(50)/Panther Ice(43)/Nightshadow Dragon(42)
Champion Villains: Freezing Night(49)/Tactical Widow(44)/Umbral Servant(38)/Mister Mechanical(33)
I have to agree that its fantastic that the devs actively pariticipate in these forums. Its yet another thing that sets this game apart from the competition.
As for the Invulnerability changes that are threatening to derail the thread.
I play an Invuln/Claws scrapper (currently level 40). I applaud the changes, they made my scrapper much better and more enjoyable to play. I tried using perma-unstoppable and decided against it for the simple reason that it made things too easy, and I dislike the concept of focusing my whole character build around one power - I think thats bad game design in the long run. I applaud the changes they made there, I think they were an improvement to the game, even if they forced a few people to leave easy mode and play a more challenging game. They were good changes.
My SG has a 44 Tanker in it, Invuln/SS, he thinks the changes were improvements as well. He seems happier with his character post I3 because now it is more challenging. Previous to I3, I think he thought things were far too easy. I can't speak for him, only report my impressions of what he has said of course (Hopefully Mr Maso will show up in the thread to speak for himself).
I think some people see any change to their playstyle as a nerf automatically. A power that is overpowered, over used, or one that you can build an entire character around is probably due for a change. I expect the devs will change Moment of Glory soon so that it can't be made perma.
I sincerely hope they change Hasten as well. Both Hasten and Stamina are too powerful, and have become pretty much mandatory in all builds. What I would like to see is the elimination of both Hasten and Stamina - combined with a reduction in the endurance costs of all powers or a level based increase in endurance regen, and the inclusion of Hasten and End Regen Inspirations.
The only thing threatening COH for me is that it will continue to be as easy as it is at the moment. Even with the difficulty slider my SG is seldom all that challenged by any mission we have done lately. My Illusion/Rad Controller is doing just fine (ie, its extremely easy) on Unyielding at the moment - I plan on trying the top setting soon. Making the game more challenging by eliminating the easy mode options would be a good thing to my mind, provided its done very carefully and slowly.
Kcirrot:
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...the developers in both EQOA and EQ 2 are very active on the boards.
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Just a quick note...it's not until very recently that we've had more than a couple dev responces an any given month on EQOA. I've heard that EQ2 is having nice updates, and EQOA is finally starting to rev up again, but it's really only recently that we've seen anything "major."
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Thought I'd pop in and give you my opinion...
I believe that you all are not just fans but customers. Because of that, I SHOULD listen to you. I SHOULD communicate with you. That's part of what you're paying for, after all.
It's easy to get away from doing chats, interviews, reading the boards and become absorbed with game design only. But I personally try to fight that temptation and be as open as possible.
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Which is why I, personally, am planning on playing City of Heroes until the last server is shut down (or until the attitude changes, which shouldn't happen as long as Statesman and crew are the devs). Hopefully that's many, many years from now :-)
Maybe this has been mentioned before, but I find it quite interesting that ol' Jack's alter-ego is named "Statesman." How interesting that you can get started in this business as a game developer and end up a politician. Kudos to Statesman for at least being a good politician. A good politician with noisy constituents, no less.
That was a compliment, you cynics! 
I think often the Dev's make changes for the betterment of the game, and this includes changes to the uberness of smoke grenade, perma-unstoppable, resistance caps, etc.
I was grouped 2 nights ago with a scrapper who used Invulnerability and he was herding wolves. Yes a scrapper.
What surprised me more is he was lvl 46 and the wolves were lvl 52. I even checked his character level with a /whoall and the powers he was using.
So what the heck? How is Invulnerability really nerfed? I checked him out and he didn't have the Fighting line or Phase Shift. Seems to me Invulnerability, even for scrappers, is still the best choice in the game for tanking hordes of enemies.