Faultline & Boomtown = Ghostown
By
9783_Dollar_Man,
Posted on: 2004-11-15 08:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
This is a problem typical of MMOGs, in which some zones fall into disuse for any number of reasons:
- difficult to get to
- difficult to get around once you're inside
- no compelling reason to go there
- newer content overtaking the older zones
- game population out-leveling those zones
I think that several of these apply to the lower level hazard zones (PP, Boomtown, Faultline). The Hollows has usurped some of the appeal of PP for many people. Boomtowna nd Fualtline are each only accessible from a single zone, and are both somewhat difficult to get around.
The game population is generally getting to be higher level. When's the last time you saw multiple instances of a low level zone, as opposed to Talos Island 2 on your tram menu? The new content is going in as higher level zones, and appropriately so because people need something to do at level 50.
One solution that has been attempted in other games, to varying degrees of success, is to "repurpose" zones for higher level content. Have a new villain group (or groups) move into Faultline, put a new trial in there, that sort of thing. This is a bit more difficult because of the level of and travel to the connecting zones, but at least skyway is accessible via Talos Island.
Anyway, the question is whether you view the problem as
- the zones are underutilized, or
- it's hard to find a group at a given level
I would maintain that the latter can be fixed by reviewing where the lower level players congregate (e.g., the Hollows), and trying to funnel people to those places.
For all those who didn't like me suggesting zones that screw over fliers, leapers, and porters as badly as some zones do superspeeders ... and seemed to imply in their responses that my perrogative was one of self interest ... let me enlighten you:
1) I have 1 character of each AT.
2) I have (or had, in some cases) every travel power currently available in the game among those characters.
3) Given these facts, I expect the people who suggested I am 'whining' will enjoy the taste of their feet. I have no particular affinity for any travel power...
4) I still feel that if getting around in zones is going to be the way the developers encourage or discourage or advocate specific travel powers ... then it should be done for all travel powers. For this to be reasonable, the -same number- of zones that penalize superspeed should exist to penalize each travel power .... in a fashion that makes it take 3-4 times as long to get around in said zones as it does in a 'normal' zone using the penalized powers. (Notice this is relative to 'normal' travel speed of each travel power itself, not a relative comparison of speed between the powers).
5) I have long been an advocate of reduced END cost for TP (and heck, clean up its usability, it's clunky) as well as speed cap increases AND ACC penalty removal on flight; travel powers should be a matter of taste/style ... but because of these kinds of issues, travel powers end up being number crunching decisions among the min/max crowd (and with good reason). Resolution of these issues would, IMHO, offer more diversity among the travel powers we see people elect to take. (For example, I desperately wanted flight and team fly on my bubble defender, but FF defenders are END-challenged enough that flight/team fly just were NOT reasonable while actually using the large bubbles. Flight got dumped.)
6) I personally think that high grav zones that spork flight/leaping ... and/or high magnetics zones that spork teleportation would be every bit as interesting as huge pits in the ground or high walls that spork superspeed. I find it humourous that people suggest said pits in the ground and said high walls add flavour ... but when suggestions are made to add similar flavour that spork other travel powers, they find the flavour distasteful. Either it adds flavour or it doesn't. Frankly, if you think something that impedes mobility adds flavour, it should be true for each travel power... not just the travel power you didn't take or the one most people have (and let's face it, most comic book heroes are runners, folks).
7) It is worthy of note that the player base's absenteeism in zones where movement is problematic says volumes about how the bulk of the populace feels. While I happen to disagree with that, as I, too, like different zone experiences, I cannot argue the power of numbers, here. What it seems people enjoy most are zones they can get around in without much impediment; that's what the numbers via whoall to see zone usage suggest.
Despite the interesting nature of certain zones that cause movement problems, it really seems like a poor expenditure of dev time to develop zones like this if what the players' habits demonstrate is that they don't like or lean toward such zones, as an entity. If the bulk of the populace, by its habits, exhibits a tendency toward certain types of zones ... and away from others ... that pattern is worthy of note and the best use of dev time would seem to be the creation of content that leans in the direction people's habits and past usage suggest they like.
Personally, I think the creation of content that will see long, repeated use ... is the best use of dev time -- compared to the creation of zones that will see sporadic, ad-hoc use. If that means more hospitals, shops, ramps, whatever ... so be it. It just seems like such a waste to have 4 new zones come out in update 2 and next to no one using them. I do not want to see a repeat of this in future updates.
Despite my penchant for equal treatment of travel powers (i.e. let's see zones that penalize each movement type), I'm not self-interested enough to sit down and argue that it should be done just because I like it or it suits one or more of my characters. I'd really rather that each new zone see heavy population; I feel THAT is best for the game.
-- Xurbax
Hm, DA is usually packed when I go there - all the fire people going zombie hunting.
I think the problem with Faultline is that it's really easy to land smack-dab in the midst of a mass of mobs without knowing it.
I think the problem with hazard zones in general is that, for the most part, it is easier to get XP elsewhere at whatever level. PP, the Hollows and DA are notable exceptions.
Also, in Faultline, there's Vaz. Lots and lots of Vaz. If you're at the right level to earn from those fights, the Vaz are really quite overpowering, blasting right through even invuln tanks.
Also, Perez and Hollows have level 15ish minions in there too - so you can go from 5-15 in Hollows or 7-14ish in Perez, and never really need to hit Boomtown.
This disjointed post brought to you by Not Enough Coffee Yet.
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Humm Fault Line ...where is that ?
No really, I went there once with my main now lvl 38 , I have
2 alts both in the teens 14 and 18 respectively and I dont plan on going to FL with either even if it means skiping a contact/story line.
the reason? Its boring, no one is there , no story line, no door missions, and lots of bosses. this has all basicly been said the the other post here though.
My point..... Give me (US) a reason to go there
maybe if enough of us say that someone will listen
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I agree about never darkening the gateway of FL (or any hazard zone for that matter). Nothing but huge groups with disproportionate numbers of Bosses and Lts.
But on the "a reason to go there" subject, hopefully if the Devs are listening that they don't do a SOE/PlanetSide/Core-Combat number and make more "reasons" by making it mandatory to go there like perez (ie at lvl 7 all contact want you to go to perez, shortly thereafter that is the ONLY mission any offer)
I'd like to see something new in those zones to bring people in. The only trial zones I go to is firebase zulu and crey's folly.
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Just for the record, making risk=reward is definitely one of our goals - we're trying to add spice and reward to bring people to the harder/underutilized zones.
One of the trickinesses of having a largely "loot free" game is trying to make rewards interesting for such things - obviously if characters are motivated largely by XP+influence as the major rewards it makes things a bit tougher for the designers - many players tend to go and do whatever the easiest source of XP is and ignore most everything else. And we like the lack of loot, generally.
But I know Jack & co are thinking on the issue, in any case.
-jg
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Hey, you made those the rewards, don't blame the player base for wanting them.
Hear hear! Give some extra incentive for me to break out my lowbie alts to check out the old-as-new zones without doing it solo ("you want to go where?") or at no challenge vs. greys with high level characters.
EDIT- and additionally, I don't know about group teleport, but group fly is bugged and very difficult to use, since the leader flies faster than the followers- makes for lots of drops. Maybe if they fixed the group travel powers things would be (slightly) better...
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Just for the record, making risk=reward is definitely one of our goals - we're trying to add spice and reward to bring people to the harder/underutilized zones.
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Putting a couple more monsters who give badges in those zones might help.
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People would just get the badge and leave. Temp powers, exp boosts, special enhancements would encourage people to stay.
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But on the "a reason to go there" subject, hopefully if the Devs are listening that they don't do a SOE/PlanetSide/Core-Combat number and make more "reasons" by making it mandatory to go there like perez (ie at lvl 7 all contact want you to go to perez, shortly thereafter that is the ONLY mission any offer)
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Agreed. If the zones are clunkers, the solution sint to force everyone to visit the zone they dont enjoy, its to make them WANT to go there.
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So basically that only leaves Faultline and Terra Volta as zones that are tough on JUST super speeders. Which, honestly, is just the way it is. You CAN get around those zones just fine. It just takes 4x as long.
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I'd be fine with 4x as long. even 8x as long.
But I did a terra volta trial with a superspeeder at 24. (she is going to get teleport also, but doesn't have it yet). Well, I *tried* to do the trial.
Even getting to the entrance to Terra Volta with superspeed is a challenge. I figured out two ways, but it took me 4x as long as the others. Well, that's fine. I was ok with that.
But once we finished the preliminary mission and were heading to the reactor. I spent 45 minutes trying to get to the reactor with superspeed. Maybe I went the wrong way, but there was another superspeed only character in the group. The two of us ran around looking for how to get there while everyone else started without us (though I did ask them not to... but oh well... if they wanted to start without either of the 2 defenders... back to the ss in Terra Volta story) I found a ramp up. But it dead ended in walls in every direction. Then I ran to the other side of the zone. I found a catwalk to get me up further. *if* I had a cling type power so I couldn't fall off pipes and such, maybe I could've got up to the next level to see what the next challenge was. But there were groups of purple mobs along this catwalk. I was defeated 3x before I gave up trying to even get to the door of the reactor. I don't mind the debt that much - was a respec after all - but to get it without even getting to attempt the respec mission was horribly frustrating.
So, I'd say Terra Volta is more like 25x the time and effort with SS only. That's a bit much. I like having other travel powers also, and so I want it to stay difficult in some places with only speed, but not *that* difficult. Make some reaosnable if roundabout way to get to important locations like mission entrances, please.
Boomtown is good as is.
Faultline should be a zone of comparable level to Brickstown, when everyone's travel powers should have matured. If you're still using Super Speed (a free pool because Hasten is practically mandatory), then yeah, I don't have much sympathy for you in your 30's. But at Faultline's current level of mobs, it's very challenging for some because of its vertical richness. As also noted, the entrance area to Faultline is too hard to access it, so it needs to be a higher level.
I also think a Faultline Trial would re-aquaint people with the zone. But until the level of the zone is changed to a level appropriate for its verticality, it will never be a popular zone. I love it, but I don't go there, because I enjoy teaming, and nobody else is there to get a team. When I've had successful teams there, I've recruited from outside the zone and dragged my friends/recruits into the zone. It shouldn't be like that.
Anyone else think its interesting that the areas of the city that you would imagine to be more populated are actually the most populated by heroes? And that areas that should feel desolate, do feel desolate?
Sad as it may be that these zones are underutilized, the desolation does give these places a cool feel.
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Creys folley sucks. Big areas w nothing but swarms and monkies. Spawns with level 40 lt's in with 33 mobs, etc. mobs are poorly distributed in level ranges, packs of high level mobs mixed in with lower levels. Groups of 32 and 37 fighting side by side. This zone coudl be good if it wasnt buggy.
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Crey's has a lot of Nemesis, though, and Nemesis are comparatively easy pickings. We've done a lot of grinding in there. My big beef with it was mob placement, since for superspeeders getting up there on those conduits or whatever could be tricky, but we have a fair number of people with Recall Friend in my SG, so it worked out.
I agree with you on a big problem with Hazard & Trial Zones being the entry limitations. That's especially annoying when you're actually doing missions with a sidekick and then realize they can't get to the door.
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Personally,
I note there are now 8 zones (that I know of) that completely blow for runners: boomtown, faultline, Terra Volta, Rikti Crash Site (due to mob density and mob-level disparity of those clumps, not terrain), and the 4 SS zones.
Where are the 8 zones that hose up leaping? How about the 8 zones that hose teleport? What about the 8 that hose flight? Let's keep it square. By 'hose up' I mean take 4-5 times as long to get around as when using those powers in other, non-problem zones.
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Amen, brother.
The SK issue is a big one in my book. The fact is that people level up at different rates (or start at different times, run alts, etc...), so if you want to hunt in Faultline, Boomtown, etc... you're SOL unless you powerlevel your buddies up. It's a lot easier just to run them as SKs on your door missions instead. IMHO, you should be allowed in the zone if you are currently SKed up high enough to meet the level requirement (even if you have to do something clunky like zone before your mentor does).
Once inside I see no reason to enforce this any further. You got in with your mentor so you should be fine, and if you try to run around without your mentor and get killed, well the nearest hospital is on the other side of the door.
The only minor issue I see is that you may encourage a bit more Powerleveling by allowing low level types access to these zones, but in reality the streets are pretty good for powerleveling already and that won't really make that much of a difference.
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...but players have to PAY for that. Super Speed gives you NO vertical movement capability, which means that getting around in zones that encourage three-dimensional movement with just SS is a pain. It encourages you to choose a different Travel power, or to invest in two. If the dev team were to "dumb down" their zones so that everywhere was as friendly to SS as they are to SJ, or made zones that penalize players for choosing a Travel power without Super Speed's mechanical advantages, there would be no reason to choose anything but SS. Hell, why not make the Oranbega tileset a flat plain and get rid of the Shadow Shard altogether? Let's make it City of Speedsters!
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Doesn't it seem a bit odd, though, that in a city where regular people walk places and drive cars there should be so many places where two-dimensional movement is impractical? How exactly do they deliver packages or transport supplies in Terra Volta? By helicopter? I mean, this is a city.
You don't realize how bizarrely laid out the streets are in the regular zones (like Skyway) until you've run them for a while, and then you think, "The guy who laid out the traffic patterns in this city must have been dropping acid. This whole place should be in perpetual gridlock." And then you find there are whole *sections* of the city where ground transport is totally impractical?
Apparently Paragon City has a thriving market in hovercars. 
There have been some good suggestions for Faultline--a contact, maybe a fence of some sort, a hospital--but why not take it a step further? This would be difficult to implement, but I think a lot of players would find it appealing:
Make Faultline the front line.
It's clear that the villains have the upper hand in the zone; that's why there are no conveniences there. Give heroes an incentive to push them back, with real, tangible results. Track the total xp earned in the zone (to keep high-levels from gaming the system). If the total crosses a certain threshold, respawn the zone with footholds--safe areas with an infirmary (a hospital, but in a temp structure like a tent or Quonset hut), a field trainer who buys enhancements at a good price, and a contact who sells skittles and gives generic missions--and maybe even loans you "weapons" (temp powers) occasionally. As long as the xp total stays above the threshold each day, the conveniences stay in place. If the heroes let up, they go away and have to be re-established. Maybe even have some buildings restored or ramps added if the zone stays in the green for long periods of time.
Like I said, it might be a pain to implement, but it would be cool. Haven't we all wished, at one point or another, that we could see a real effect we have on the city? We beat up a swarm of villains, only to have more appear moments later--a necessary game mechanic, but disheartening. Having a few places where there are signs that the war on crime can be won would be a great motivator.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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Boomtown is good as is.
Faultline should be a zone of comparable level to Brickstown, when everyone's travel powers should have matured.
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Don't disagree with ya there...
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If you're still using Super Speed (a free pool because Hasten is practically mandatory), then yeah, I don't have much sympathy for you in your 30's.
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It's that kind of attitude that pisses me off...Not to harp on you, but lemme harp on that feeling. I have superspeed cause I'm like the flash. No I don't have hasten...so why are you pushing you're "you need to have at least two travel powers to be useful and SS doesn't count because everyone knows you take it because of hasten" mantra? If I had wanted hasten I would have taken hasten- not superspeed. I can't afford any additional pool powers as SR- Stamina tree is required, and I have to take all of my secondary (yes all 9 powers), besides four main attacks and build up to be useful...that adds up to 20 powers by 38. I am going the medicine route because that is more useful to me in combat than another way to travel- I can heal myself and give some status resistance via tricorder- which may disappear when epic power pools become available. So don't try to lump me into your "everyone's a SS fire blaster" mentality...I kinda resent that- it's taken me 500+ hours to get my MA/SR dude up to 41, and there is no way that I'm wasting two additional powers and a respec just to get vertical movement for the sheer fun of overcoming zone design shortsightedness. Heck I had no idea there was a dam in Faultline until I got the badge...anyway /rant off...
And I agree how the shard, faultline, and TV are not just 4x as hard, but much much harder for SS only people. I spent at least 20 minutes tredging through TV before I lucked on a jump (on top of a mob no less) to get back into the respec trial. People are also forgetting how difficult traversing Eden is if you can't jump on top of the forest. I have found a way to leap on top, but that is with luck and SOs. I remember trying to run through the maze and being mauled time and time again.
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Apparently Paragon City has a thriving market in hovercars.
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Heh!
Nice ideas. Mash units and contacts and stores are good. Here's a few more.
-alternate means to move around the site. Have temporary, in-zone tp bracelets issued to heroes that can tp them back to the exit, or even to specific waypoints. They take as long as regular tp to activate, so chances are they won't save your bacon in a fast & furious fight.
-portals, tucked away here and there, which tp you to different areas of the map. Set up by villains, so there's likely to be villains near, possibly on the other side of the portal.
-being largely deserted, this is a good place for villains to hide caches of weapons. Have randomly spawned temp powers here and there. The power, and the locations, will constantly change, making it a sort of treasure hunt experience.
-functioning info booths would be nice. Some people like to see who's doing the most in a zone
-doors like the halloween event, where random doors might spawn monsters, give influence, enhancements, or inspirations. Possibly even DO's or the rare SO.
-doors can sometimes open to missions that can be done without needing to go through contacts ("As you enter the derelict building you are greeted by a spatter of dust falling from the ceiling and the agonized call for help from deeper within the wreckage")
-create another faction or two for this zone. Maybe it became occupied by homeless people before the villains encroached, and they've refused to leave. This would give you a reason to have contacts and stores inside. It would also give the vahz more reason to be there other than year-old skeletons from old cemetaries.
-Possibly put a functioning tram in a heavily guarded section that is being reclaimed by military and construction. Alternately, and more likely, have a helipad with a helicopter on it that you can enter. This will transport you to one of several zones where there's a building with a helipad on it. Steel Canyon has one on ground level, so that would be a good one. It's also not far from Blyde, as I recall. Other zones have helipads I'm sure, even if only on roofs. Find ones with fire escapes leading to them and use them.
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There have been some good suggestions for Faultline--a contact, maybe a fence of some sort, a hospital--but why not take it a step further? This would be difficult to implement, but I think a lot of players would find it appealing:
Make Faultline the front line.
It's clear that the villains have the upper hand in the zone; that's why there are no conveniences there. Give heroes an incentive to push them back, with real, tangible results. Track the total xp earned in the zone (to keep high-levels from gaming the system). If the total crosses a certain threshold, respawn the zone with footholds--safe areas with an infirmary (a hospital, but in a temp structure like a tent or Quonset hut), a field trainer who buys enhancements at a good price, and a contact who sells skittles and gives generic missions--and maybe even loans you "weapons" (temp powers) occasionally. As long as the xp total stays above the threshold each day, the conveniences stay in place. If the heroes let up, they go away and have to be re-established. Maybe even have some buildings restored or ramps added if the zone stays in the green for long periods of time.
Like I said, it might be a pain to implement, but it would be cool. Haven't we all wished, at one point or another, that we could see a real effect we have on the city? We beat up a swarm of villains, only to have more appear moments later--a necessary game mechanic, but disheartening. Having a few places where there are signs that the war on crime can be won would be a great motivator.
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Oh, this is a wonderful idea. It could also be implemented in The Hollows, DA, Eden, and the Rikti Crash site, so there would be such an area for each tier of players to make a difference. DEVs, hire this guy.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
There is already a bonus for doing missions, why not have a small XP bonus for hunting in Hazard zones? Hazard pay doesn't seem unreasonable. Just make it so people have to decide if the extra time and risk it takes to go to these places and hunt is worth the small xp bonus.
Maybe zone specific monsters like the Hydra in Perez?
Or, what if a security guard near the gate can turn a team into a 'patrol'. The team is locked togeather like a Task Force, only you don't get a long series of door missions. Maybe he just gives your patrol direction, or like a "Defeat 100 Clockwork" or "Defeat 25 Clockwork Bosses" that must be completed while in that zone, with a bonus for completion. Task Forces are far to long for the casual gamer, maybe something like a mini-task force, or patrol, would be better utilized?
I don't see how this could be exploited any more or faster than people doing missions who just skip the mission and search for hostages/flashy/boss. I've been on teams who scream through missions and just reap the XP bonus at the end. I guess there isn't an infinate supply of easy XP missions, but at least with this 'patrol' you would still have to do some work for your XP.
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Just for the record, making risk=reward is definitely one of our goals - we're trying to add spice and reward to bring people to the harder/underutilized zones.
One of the trickinesses of having a largely "loot free" game is trying to make rewards interesting for such things
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As fun as this game, it is just a one dimensional game. And xp/levels is that dimension. The simplicity is also a drawback it seems.
However, if you want rewards, i would say temporary powers. That will bring people out in droves. It makes the fights easier, thereby lowering the risk/reward ratio and then you'll have people visiting those zones.
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There is already a bonus for doing missions, why not have a small XP bonus for hunting in Hazard zones? Hazard pay doesn't seem unreasonable. Just make it so people have to decide if the extra time and risk it takes to go to these places and hunt is worth the small xp bonus.
Maybe zone specific monsters like the Hydra in Perez?
Or, what if a security guard near the gate can turn a team into a 'patrol'. The team is locked togeather like a Task Force, only you don't get a long series of door missions. Maybe he just gives your patrol direction, or like a "Defeat 100 Clockwork" or "Defeat 25 Clockwork Bosses" that must be completed while in that zone, with a bonus for completion. Task Forces are far to long for the casual gamer, maybe something like a mini-task force, or patrol, would be better utilized?
I don't see how this could be exploited any more or faster than people doing missions who just skip the mission and search for hostages/flashy/boss. I've been on teams who scream through missions and just reap the XP bonus at the end. I guess there isn't an infinate supply of easy XP missions, but at least with this 'patrol' you would still have to do some work for your XP.
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I dig this idea a lot, I think this could work really well and encourage grouping in Hazzard/Trial Zones.
I dont think they should make more zones SS friendly. SS is the best Travel power for blasters. The more you make it easier for blasters the mroe they will solo in these zones (because they can). I think adding stores that sell lower priced DO/SO enhancements would draw in players. Not too much lower but enough that going and hunting there is worth it. The "and hunting" is key. Zone spasific Missions like the hallows would also add to the zone.
i'm not sure if this has been posted, but why not increase the amount of mobs per group in these zones, making them harder to take on solo, and add the reward of possible duel SO's (ie. acc/dam) dropping.
you'd need a larger group to get things done, and the reward would satisfy the risk.