The "yes we're working on it...."
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2004-11-08 18:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The only Change I've heard of coming to Regen is some form of resistance Vs. one of the untyped damages that's currently a problem for Invuln [ Poison or something similar ], which I believe one of the Devs said Regen would be able to resist.
But that's the only other change to Regen I've ever heard them talk about, and that doesn't seem to fit the bill of what Statesman was talking about. Anyone know anything about this?
A. - I think you need to watch some of the Vids of people soloing ARCHVILLIANS, which are MUCH more dangerous than a LITTLE +2 boss.
I am aware that people have found ways to solo AVs. That's a separate issue to me; it means that AVs aren't nearly powerful enough for their stated purpose, but they're special cases anyway. How powerful the players are with regard to the everyday environment is a separate (and to me, more pressing) concern.
B. - Obviously you haven't seen anyone with Perma-Elude, because the can get easily to 125% DEF or MORE.
I have Elude, though not yet at the permanent level. (I don't use Hasten. I will eventually six-slot it with Recharges so I can use it "permanently" if necessary, but don't plan to do so -- I will still have properly slotted toggles and passives.) It is not all that. It gives a base +60% to all three Reflexes catagories (melee, ranged, AE). That is barely more than one Phenomenal Luck. Speed junkies can slot two Defense enhancers and still run it permanently at +84% or so, but this is overkill in most circumstances because of the accuracy floor.
Reflexes does not ever, ever put you in the position of not being able to lose a fight to a mob worth experience. There is always a minimum 5% chance of being hit. It may require probability to stand on its head, but anything that can hurt you can potentially kill you. That's why I say it's where Scrapper defenses need to be -- good enough to be reliable, but not so overpowering as to be invincible. It's always possible to lose, even if you play perfectly.
I have to respectfully disagree. As you increase in lvl, you can take on higher cons. I am a Fire tank - the weakest def out of all the tanks. But as a 39, I routinely took on 41-43 Fake Nems. And usually had a few friends, too.
What do you think I was doing in Peregrine Island? I was 39 myself at the time (41 now), taking on 41-42 mobs (43s were doable but not worth the risk, IMO). I, too, could take on a 41 Chief Soldier at 39, but if he hit me twice, I would lose. That meant I had to use at least a Respite after every hit, and I couldn't floor them without Elude or Luck (melee Defense 56%, plus 20% if Divine Avalanche was up; +2 boss has a 90% BTH), making them at least a moderate-risk fight.
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Thanks for the update, States!
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3. +1 level mobs are now appearing in the numbers that we had wanted in missions.
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Even in the low level missions? I'm very concerned about new players facing orange Mortificators (often in pairs!) at levels 3 or 4. That's a tough fight for veteran players. I'm sure anyone who's made a new Science hero in the past while can back this up.
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I know a lot of people like the +1 mobs in missions, and ya know one or two +1 mobs in a mission, I'm cool with, but when you've got entire rooms of +1, including the end boos, that's just not right. I think this is a problem in lower levels. I can't believe you guys want the missions to be THAT hard. I thought you guys WANTED people to do missions, and not street hunt.
Around low 20s +1s stop becoming a problem and start becoming welcomed, I know, but geez.
One of the most frustrating missions I had bring up a new scrapper was a "save 4 artifacts" mission. One room had 2 +1 minions and 1 +1 lt working on the artifacts, and 5 +1 minions in the room, whom all aggroed at once, and of course destroyed the artifact. I didn't even stand a chance. *Waits for the "buy more inspirations" and "I can solo anything with any AT" posts*
I guess I'll just hang tight and shelve some of my characters until the slider is in. I just hope the slider is for fine tuning missions and not extremes. I don't want to set my missions on "easy" and have nothing but grays and greens in there. Maybe a two pronged slider for level and numbers? so I have 2x the number of blues or something...
I'm concerned that you said that the +1 level minions and lieutenants are at the number you want. They've removed a LOT of the fun I've had with my current alt. The fun level strongly depends upon the AT...scrappers have the least problem with +1s. Given that you've also said that you'll be making changes so that 3 white minions are a challenge at every level, doesn't that make 3 yellow minions a deathtrap?
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Just one question...
Super Reflexes; you once said you would think about adding another damage mitigate for the set, like a minimum damage Resistance. Any chance of this being in Update 3 ?
I know you have a lot on your plate, so if SR missed the boat I would understand.
BuzzSaw
2. After analysis, Scrappers CAN NOT reach the same levels of resistance as a Tank. Regeneration, though, is a small concern.
From my experience...
lvl 1-10. So-so: No real damage, no real defence/rejen. Fast attacks though.
10-20. Very Hard: No real rejen/defence, but mob damage ramps up. Spent lvls 7-19 perma debt. can you say GRIND.
20-28. So-so. Got integration, so bypasses a lot of greif. Still easily 2 shotted by mobs.
28-35(As far as I've go so far) Cake walk. Solo purple boss's easily. Anything under lvl 40 I can kill(almost, a few are not fun, Paragon protectors ).
I've heard and read that post 40, regen scrappers go back to so-so.
I'll wait and see.
Basically, lvl's 1-27 were HARD. LOTS of debt. LOTS of greif. Only in the 28+(Instant healing) Did I REALLY feel like a super hero.
If you want to change scrappers, make it a little more even over all the levels.
You know what would be a GOOD secondary effect for fire?
FEAR!
Have the little worms run around on fire for a bit, try to roll on the carpet some, instead of trying to attack you.
It's not knockback, less endurance, stun, etc. But something totally different.
I wouldn't mind fire being bumped down to the same damage levels as everything else in that case. If something had to be compromised.
I have an energy and fire blaster and at the same level the fire blaster can take an additional +1 set of mobs and defeat them with the same set of AoE attacks that the energy blaster does. If anything I see that as balanced, because at the same lvl fire will defeat villains that might still be alive if attacked by energy, and knocked down.
Anyhow, what do you think about fear as a secondary effect for fire?
Take the Regen debates to another thread guys, it's not the topic and I'm sure States doesn't want to wade through the arguments to find answerable questions, he's got alot to do already 
My 2 cents: Regen, WHEN COMBINED WITH POOLS, is quite potent in the late 20s up to 40; I've seen Scrappers tank better than tanks and not take any dmg due to perma-IH and insane regen; however, these instances are players that know how to make their powers work together, and compliment each other. Casuals and other less-"perfect" builds may not follow that, keep it in mind; a slight tweak might help, but it's a very fine line between balance/returning the challenge and basically blowing the set to bits. For those Regens who still argue for reasons relating to alpha-strikes/holds later on due to lack of def, read the other part of his post where he says he's going to decrease those occurances
Way more than I wanted to ptut but oh well; Unyielding getting a slight movement capability would be nice, most people use it anyways, but others ignore it due to the inability to move(Like myself ) I'd say Caltrop or Swarm-induced slow walking speed would be fair, or if it's a bit more, lower the resistance it grants a bit to compensate.
And finally, more costume options would be great, trench coats would open a ton of possibilities I've wanted to make, like Setzer from FF6 or others 
I do highly suggest though, adding "true" Medieval Armors, the current one that's called Medieval isn't even remotely like that =\ And it has Arrows pointing at the crotch from each piece, cmon that's not knight-like lol
Thanks a bunch for the post, States ;D
Looks to me like he's talking about resistances, and as we all know, Regen has practically none. Maybe that might get changed. 
Consider leaving Unyielding Stance the way it is.
As a 34th Level Tanker, I already consider it one of my top 2 powers (along with Invincibility). And as Status Effects become more and more common, US gets better and better.
Why is it so great? While it's up, it's complete immunity from status effects. That keep my toggles up, that keeps me up, and that keeps the rest of my team up. Only Malta Sappers have a way around it with their gruesome Endurance drain.
If you added a slow movement ability to it without making it's other attributes any worse, one of the best powers I have would get better. It doesn't make sense to make a great power even better.
If you add some movement powers to it, but then removed the complete 100% invulnerablity to status effects -- well, I'd rather have the power as it currently is. The one thing that could be done is to lower it's resistance from 20% to something lower -- I use US for it's Status protection, not it's RES ability. To be honest, I'd use it if it had NO Resistance ability. Complete Status protection is that good.
Admittedly, I have teleport -- but I don't even use it all that much once I've ported into battle. I tend to be able to Provoke and Taunt things back to me, rather than moving myself.
Also, I'm one of those for whom Unstoppable is unappealing -- but for those who want Status protection with mobility -- Unstoppable (with it's MANY pros AND cons) is an option at 32nd level.
- Jeremy White
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6. I do know that Unyielding Stance and its immobility is an issue. I'm going to be thinking about that a lot in the coming week.
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Thats cool. Check on Rooted, also, while at it.
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2. After analysis, Scrappers CAN NOT reach the same levels of resistance as a Tank. Regeneration, though, is a small concern.
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R O F L
Even basic math can prove this one retardedly wrong. Any templated spines/invuln can show you the error of your ways. Really. Mind Boggling.
If Geko cant do the math on this one, and I am pretty sure he could, here it is.
Perma Unstop: 52.5% res to all but psi. 4 recharges for perma, 2 dam res. 10.5% each damres. thats 73.5% for Unstop ALONE.
Now, Res elements = %15 base. %18 with its base slot. Thats over %90 to fire/ice. Res Energy = %15 base %18 with base slot, thats over %90 to energy/negative energy.
RPD = %10 base. with 4 slots, thats %18. Yes, sir, thats %90 also. In case you hadnt heard, the cap is %90.
Oh also, and not coincidentally, thats 5 + 3 slots TOTAL for the equalling of tanker defenses.
Invincibility = SR Scrapper, also, for the low low cost of 0 slots. I run a hit buff in it. LOL.
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Regen needs to be left alone. It's HELL to get to 28, and then from 29-40 you're in the cat fat heaven. After 40+, it's hell again. I don't think a AT needs to be nerfed just because it has a few levels of good power. Hell SR or INV Scrappers PWN 40+ and INV is better then regen 30+. My Regen can't herd 50+ mobs and AoE them down like a Inv/(Kat/Spine) scrapper.
Nerfing Regen is just the same as pandering to the cry babies who don't know what Regen is really like, but heard from a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend that their lvl 20 Regen scrapper solo'ed Godzilla.
And BTW, all the vids of scrappers wasting AV's are friggin SUPER REFLEX SCRAPPERS post 40!!!
Sorry statesman, but wait just a minute. If you're going to put a stop to the Alpha Striking capability of Blasters, you will BREAK the archetype. Frontloaded damage is the point of blasters, after all. If you lower it, plenty of blasters arent going to exactly love the change. Blasters already suffer from their paper thin defenses enough.
Okay, I realize regen is getting beat to death here, but my two cents.
My DM/Regen Scrapper just hit 28. I've been attempting the respec TF for sometime now. 6-7 deaths later I'm no closer.
It seems from my LIMITED experience that IH is awesome against 1 on 1 mob fights. Gather a group of +1 to +2 con mobs and it's not that great. Certainly a defining power of the set, but it's not like Invincibility...IMHO.
I sincerely thank Statesman for the post...it's very nice to see what's happening in the future.
My bottom line concern with the Regen set is that Scrappers ARE the solo class. I LIKE to solo when my SG is not online (10-15 hours per week). I usually solo with my DM/Regen Scrapper...I only hope to be able to continue to solo as I am now...and finally complete that dang respec TF. 
Thanks again Statesman! 
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Regen needs to be left alone. It's HELL to get to 28, and then from 29-40 you're in the cat fat heaven. After 40+, it's hell again. I don't think a AT needs to be nerfed just because it has a few levels of good power. Hell SR or INV Scrappers PWN 40+ and INV is better then regen 30+. My Regen can't herd 50+ mobs and AoE them down like a Inv/(Kat/Spine) scrapper.
Nerfing Regen is just the same as pandering to the cry babies who don't know what Regen is really like, but heard from a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend that their lvl 20 Regen scrapper solo'ed Godzilla.
And BTW, all the vids of scrappers wasting AV's are friggin SUPER REFLEX SCRAPPERS post 40!!!
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Um, too me that seems like a power-set that needs looked at...for 38/50 levels it's to quote you "Hell" maybe decentralizing focus on Instant Healing, and strengthening the other parts of the set would make it amuch more balanced set which is more enjoyable over a wider variety of levels.
I'll add my voice and chime in for SR.
Any plans to combine the ranged/AoE Def powers and make room for some damage resistance any time soon?
The powerset is pretty good as it is. Admittedly, I don't get hit very often, and most enemies I fight don't do enough damage to me for it to be a big worry. When it's a boss or higher-level enemy landing that blow, though, it really hurts. I don't think it needs a lot of work; but a single hit taking away half my character's health and having four seperate powers for ranged/AoE defense is a bit much, IMO.
Oh P.s
I play a few toons at lvl 30+. My Kat/Inv Scrapper Tanks just as good as my Inv/Nrg tanker ... Except for one thing. He kills crap 3x faster. :/
I am curious if Taunt will be effected by the AoE taunts in attacks. Will Taunt get the same treatment, therefor eliminating the need for provoke?
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Regen needs to be left alone. It's HELL to get to 28, and then from 29-40 you're in the cat fat heaven. After 40+, it's hell again. I don't think a AT needs to be nerfed just because it has a few levels of good power. Hell SR or INV Scrappers PWN 40+ and INV is better then regen 30+. My Regen can't herd 50+ mobs and AoE them down like a Inv/(Kat/Spine) scrapper.
Nerfing Regen is just the same as pandering to the cry babies who don't know what Regen is really like, but heard from a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend that their lvl 20 Regen scrapper solo'ed Godzilla.
And BTW, all the vids of scrappers wasting AV's are friggin SUPER REFLEX SCRAPPERS post 40!!!
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Um, too me that seems like a power-set that needs looked at...for 38/50 levels it's to quote you "Hell" maybe decentralizing focus on Instant Healing, and strengthening the other parts of the set would make it amuch more balanced set which is more enjoyable over a wider variety of levels.
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No, just leave it alone. Theres 14 pages of Regen'ers saying leave it alone. So leave it alone. It sucks 1-27 and it sucks 40+, but a lot of people play from 28-40 most of their CoH career. Screwing with Regen is pointless when other AT's and other scrappers are FAR better for FAR more then 10 stupid levels. Inv Scrappers PWN, at ALL times. SR scrappers PWN, 40+, INV, Stone Tankers, lay SMACK, Fire Tankers, solo HERDS of 50 or more mobs. Controllers have more pets then I have credit card bills, blasters can 1 hit AoE mob groups for MILES in all directions.
People just got Regen scrappers out for it because of hearsay and fart smack. Nerfing Regen just gives the other over powered AT's a break from being looked at and simmers the cry's of the idiots screaming about Regen when a dozen other builds can put it to shame.
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6. I do know that Unyielding Stance and its immobility is an issue. I'm going to be thinking about that a lot in the coming week.
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When you and your team sit down to think about it, just keep in mind that invulnerability is a scrapper powerset, and tweaking US does affect scrapper balance. A lot.
I have 2 questions:
1- Is the double added protection force fields give against dark melee powers like smite intentional or is it a bug?
2- Will shields be attack based, like ranged attacks? Or defense based (blocking things with the shields)? Or a mix of both?
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If you've got anything else you want an update on, feel free to post and I'll TRY to answer questions. Please don't ask things about future features...I'll be happy to communicate the status of the "big" questions that appear to come up over and over again.
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So is the horribly broken state of Mind Conrollers is still on the "no we're not working on it...." list, based on its omission?
Okay, Statesman. Question:
When are you guys going to re-examine Hasten, and the ease of engineering "duration" click powers to be always on? Surely you can see a problem when people run around with perma-RecoveryAura, since it more or less completely circumvents the Endurance game mechanic for entire groups.
Have you ever considered changing click powers with durations so that the recharge times are MUCH shorter, but don't "start the clock" until AFTER the duration ends?
a Current Hasten thread
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So is the horribly broken state of Mind Conrollers is still on the "no we're not working on it...." list, based on its omission?
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The changes being worked on with FEAR powers directly involve and affect Mind Controllers.
So they're not omitted. Yet.
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1. DA, Ice Armor, Stone Armor - the f/x are going throug a redo and the powers will be made stackable. I'll tell you when as soon as the schedule is solid.
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As regards Ice - does f/x refer purely to _visual_ f/x, or will there be any reworking of what the powers actually do?
Stacking Frozen Armor, Wet Ice, and Glacial Armor will give potentially great defense against Smashing, Lethal, Energy, and Negative attacks, and some Defense against Cold and Fire. Psionic and untyped attacks will punch right through (and be more of a pain if they carry Sleep). Likewise, Cold attacks will still have a decent chance of punching through and sleeping or slowing us, which just seems... wrong.
I have a question that isn't related to regeneration.
Is there awareness among the design team that most Gravity Controllers feel that we suffer from a profound lack of everyday control compared to other primary sets? If so, are there plans to look into it?
Rather than argue the case here, there is a running discussion on the controller boards here.