CoH = $15 a month (cool) CoV = $15 a month (BAD!)

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I really dont think that double charge will happen. If it does everyone will leave the game. No ones gonna pay that much for a monthly game. I think 15 dollars is to much away, so Im sure not gonna pay 30 dollars a month. For 15 dollars a month we should be gettin alot more content in our updates than we are.

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However, it will -not- be $15 a month for COH and another $15 for COV if you're playing both.


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You missed that huh?

Gaffer, I'm hopeful Cryptic and NCSoft would never, ever, in a million years, even if the sun collides with the Earth, ever consider increasing the monthly fee to have both CoH and CoV active on the same account. Having CoV as a "stand alone" expansion is a great idea! It allows people to enjoy the game from a completely different level without having to pay for CoH. This will allow you to charge full price for CoV when it comes out (hence, there's your money grab) instead of the slightly lower price of most other game expansions. Also, you can always box the two games together, slap a "special price" on it and sell tons that way... another completely acceptable money grab. Heck, package the game in the form of a DVD with special figures and a new special power. That's a great money gra... oh yeah. Nevermind.

Long story short, there are plenty of other ways to make a buck that won't cost you a large hunk of your market share. Even an extra $2 a month is totally unacceptable and simply won't fly with the US market.

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Exact billing is still TBD (COV is a while off). However, it will -not- be $15 a month for COH and another $15 for COV if you're playing both.

It'd be nice to charge a bit more per month for the COH+COV combo (like the $15+$5 mentioned above) but in practice, if you can only play one character (regardless of it being a hero or villlain) online at a time...but it'd be tough to justify. Our bandwidth or support costs wouldn't go up as long as it's still one player with both games enabled...though it'd be nice to financially support the extra content development needed to be increasing the content of both COH and COV. And we like money. The question is, would we not really just be incentivizing most players to turn off whatever game they were not playing for most of the month...which would be a) annoying to users and b) not make us more money - not exactly win-win.

However, the exact model is TBD - or, if it's decided, I haven't heard the final decision. Thoughts welcome.

-jg

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I'm sure it "would be nice" to charge us per level, to get paid for developing additional story arcs... I mean, the higher level guy can go in more zones, why not stiff him a little more?

Even if its 5 bucks more a month, thats about twice what Id be paying for any other online game, considering they offer multi month subscription plan discounts. And PvP in the beginning... and more content... So Id tend to say a price hike is fairly unacceptable to me. I dont get charged more for other games once I buy an expansion pack. I know, CoH's expansions are free. They also contain MUCH less content than an EQ expansion, and EQ released free content too (chardok b, sol c, zone upgrades, quest revamps etc).

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Exact billing is still TBD (COV is a while off). However, it will -not- be $15 a month for COH and another $15 for COV if you're playing both.

It'd be nice to charge a bit more per month for the COH+COV combo (like the $15+$5 mentioned above) but in practice, if you can only play one character (regardless of it being a hero or villlain) online at a time...but it'd be tough to justify. Our bandwidth or support costs wouldn't go up as long as it's still one player with both games enabled...though it'd be nice to financially support the extra content development needed to be increasing the content of both COH and COV. And we like money. The question is, would we not really just be incentivizing most players to turn off whatever game they were not playing for most of the month...which would be a) annoying to users and b) not make us more money - not exactly win-win.

However, the exact model is TBD - or, if it's decided, I haven't heard the final decision. Thoughts welcome.

-jg

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This confuses me. How can you have PvP if these are seperate games?
Seperate games to me would be like EQII and SWG. I thought CoH and CoV would be more like Rebels and Imperials in SWG. No? Aren't villians and heros going to be able to interact on the same server? I thought that there would not be different Villian servers... I thought that the current servers would just suddenly have villian players. Which to me makes it an expansion not a new game. And I have no intention of paying a penny more to play an expansion. I know that different things for different folks... I personnaly hate PvP so would not pay a cent to play CoV. I did plan on buying it because I understood there would be content on there that even CoH non PvP people wanted. I also thought that it would be fun to create a villian (only if there is non PvP villian content). But... I will not pay a cent more in subscription fees for CoV. Nope, that would be the first thing Cryptic would dissappoint me with if they did that.


Satiata

Who are you folks who consider $15 a month a lot of money?!

How can you afford a computer capable of playhing CoH if you can't afford $17 a month to play it?

Here's an example: CoV brings new zones which you can only visit if you have CoV. If you only have CoV you cannot visit zones in CoH. Both games will likely have PvP areas available to both games. If you want to play in Paragon City as well as the CoV city you buy both of them.
However, it is perfectly possible for you to just play CoV, still fighting other heroes but without experiencing any of the CoH missions/contacts/zones.

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Who are you folks who consider $15 a month a lot of money?!

How can you afford a computer capable of playhing CoH if you can't afford $17 a month to play it?

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Then you wont mind paying for my fee if its not a big deal. :P 2 bucks more a month on my 3 accounts isnt a large amount of moneyl. Its the the price hike for BS reasons when competing products offer more for less that I object to. If they charged me 5 bucks every time I leveled, it wouldnt break the bank. Id be opposed to that crap too.

I would be happy to pay an extra $5 to $10 a month if it meant content for both would each progress as quickly (or preferably moreso) as CoH content does now.

In other words, if content will have to slow because of the $15/mo limit, I'd be upset.

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Exact billing is still TBD (COV is a while off). However, it will -not- be $15 a month for COH and another $15 for COV if you're playing both.

It'd be nice to charge a bit more per month for the COH+COV combo (like the $15+$5 mentioned above) but in practice, if you can only play one character (regardless of it being a hero or villlain) online at a time...but it'd be tough to justify. Our bandwidth or support costs wouldn't go up as long as it's still one player with both games enabled...though it'd be nice to financially support the extra content development needed to be increasing the content of both COH and COV. And we like money. The question is, would we not really just be incentivizing most players to turn off whatever game they were not playing for most of the month...which would be a) annoying to users and b) not make us more money - not exactly win-win.

However, the exact model is TBD - or, if it's decided, I haven't heard the final decision. Thoughts welcome.

-jg

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Thank you GAFFER, I totally appreciate you and Lord Recluse throwing in some comments about this. I know this topic existed before, and I am glad this is a big topic and being discussed. Hopefully you all can come to an agreement that will be mutually satisfying to all parties invloved, Cryptic, NCSoft, and of course, WE, the comsumers.
Thank you sir, we look forward in the future to how this plays out.

I think Gaffer answered all concerns I may have had on this issue so I am content to leave Cryptic to getting CoV ready and helping NCSoft determine a fair price increase IF they feel the increased manpower, equipment and bandwidth to run both games warrants it. Thanks Gaffer

Why not add another $2-5 to the subscription price? That's not going break anyone. Sure. Why not add another $5 in another 6 months. And maybe 8 months later we'll tack on another $2.50. None of those are terribly huge amounts of money, so what's the big deal?

Wake up!

Hate to break it to you, but every dollar counts! This is how we end up paying $50 a month in under 3 years. Is that still sounding affordable to you? Have you seen the price of gasoline lately? Heck, they never raised that more than about 10 cents a gallon on any given day. But is the resultant price so easy to swallow? I think not.

If CoV brings ANY change in the monthly subscription rate I will simply not buy it. $15/month is the HIGH END of the scale for these games. Every game out there is charging either that much or less. Even SWG, the game that SET that high-end bar at $15 did not institute any rate changes with the addition of their vaunted "Jump to Lightspeed" space expansion. No other game that I'm aware of has ever raised a subscription rate due to an expansion release.

That CoV will release as a stand-alone rather than an 'expansion-only' box means that it has the potential to earn MORE money than a dedicated expansion because its stand-alone status means that it can draw in NEW players and build the subscription base rather than appeal only to existing players. If it doens't bring in a single penny more per month per subscriber than CoH already does, it's still making money on sales of the actual box (which can also be sold for approximately $20 more per box due to being a stand-alone game -- IE for the full game price of $50 rather than the usual expansion price of $30) and on new subscriptions generated.

In the long run, these games are making their money from volume of subscriptions and RETENTION of subscribers. The best thing NCSoft and Cryptic can do at this point is to keep providing the great game they have been for the same price, as is the market standard, and keep all their subscribers happy while attracting more people to their game instead of losing them to games who are charging the now standard $15/mo. or LESS for their gaming experience.

Just in my opinion, of course.

So far, the goal for CoV is:

CoH alone: $15
CoV alone: $15
CoV and CoH both registered: $15

But since nothing is finite, this might chance (and I'm with you guys; if they start charging double, they'll probably lose half their subscribers anyways)

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But since nothing is finite, this might chance (and I'm with you guys; if they start charging double, they'll probably lose half their subscribers anyways)

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They know this already, I'm sure. They have to know this. Please God, I hope they know this.

There are still companies out there that are interested in the long term dollar as opposed to the bare faced money grab. The first rule of having a succesful long term business can be summed up in a line from Glengarry Glen Ross.

"You don't sell a man one car, you sell him 5 cars over 15 years" (or something to that effect)

Raising the monthly subscription price would be a bad idea. All your competition out there charges less per month to play their game. Sure, what's $2 right? Well, that's an extra $12 a year, $24 over 2 years, ect. It all adds up.

It's a growing trend. Customers of anything refuse to be nickled and dimed to death. Even if your costs do increase, you can't pass that cost in its entirety to the customer, especially if there is more than enough competition out there. This is anything but it especially applies to MMO's since there are so many out there now. The monthly subscription to an MMO is not considered necessary to most people (I'm not talking about the psychos that have addiction problems). It's entertainment. We want the most possible for our money.

With all the competition out there, why would you charge us a larger monthly subscription (keeping in mind yours is already the highest) on top of charging the standard $39.99-$49.99 for the software to play what is essentially the same game with new goodies in it? I will give you credit for one brilliant move though. You aren't going to require owning CoH to play CoV. That will attract many new customers who maybe didn't want to be a hero.

I think they have good numbers-crunchers. Literally hundreds of people in beta submitted posts about themselves and all their friends not signing up for the game at launch because of the UNTHINKABLE monthly fee of $15/mo. Anything more than $7 - $9 was price-gouging and would amount most people not re-upping their subscription after the free month.
(steps to the left to avoid a piece of sky falling)
Yet the game is wildly successful, and filled with content customers.

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on top of charging the standard $39.99-$49.99 for the software to play what is essentially the same game with new goodies in it?

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How do most FPS get away with it is a better question. At least with CoV, we're getting new game mechanics, new powers, a whole new city to adventure in...

But I see your and everyone else's point about not getting crazy with upping the fees. There are few games out there that charge as much per month (there are other games out there that charge as much, mortiana), and I think the bean-counters will come to the right decision for the company and the players.

What about this:

CoH OR CoV: reduce subscription to 12$
CoH AND CoV: 15$

Would make some happy customers

$15 a month is enough for both content. I would imagine other MMO's that come with PvP will be released with it enabled. I don't think the trend of adding new features wether large or small that up the monthly subscription is the way to go. Charge money for the content up front sure. But continue to charge money for it no. My opinion ymmv.

personally if there is any additional charge I wont get COV.
I mean I am already paying for City of... why pay again for City of... . To me it is the same game just with new content not two different games. I could be wrong and maybe you could show me how it might be different but to me it is not fair to add new content to a game and then charge me twice. to me it should have had villians and heros both from the beginning for one charge. The best game possible in other words not two incomplete games.


Terry Bailey Sr.

What if they grandfathered everyone who's been playing CoH all this time and allow them to play both at no additional cost, but for anyone who starts playing after CoV comes out they pay an additional rate of $5-$7 to play both?

That way they don't lose any customers because of additional billing, but they can make up the cost of developement and additional staffing for the new release. It both covers their cost and rewards long time players.

Remember this whole thread was speculation and even what Gaffer said about it relating to any increase was not fact. ALSO REMEMBER we are getting updates small or large on a regular basis for FREE what other MMO out there is doing that??

I have purchased every expansion for EQ except the last one so over the 5 years I bet I have added more than $24 a year to what I paid for the monthly fee and that fee was even raised from the original. They MAY I say MAY ask for a slight increase in the monthly fee while still continuing to pay workers to create new content to patch into the game 3 - 5 times a year. Where does that moeny come from people? We are not paying for the new content our monthly fee is paying for the upkeep of the server network and the staff of people who monitor the game, customer service and tech support. I doubt any of them work for minimum wage so all that is not cheap. I am sure the electic bill for running all those servers must be very high.

Lets say they can give us CoH + CoV for those who want both as one game and not increase the monthly fee. I bet their costs are still going to increase so where do they get the money to pay for it... uh uh they might have to start charging us for those updates to the game. Here we go will you pay an extra $10 to $15 dollars every 3 months for those updates then?? ( AGAIN EVEN THIS IS SPECULATION so do not get bent over it )

Also do not forget that we ( well except the relatively few players who got copies of the game outside North America ) get a comic book FREE every month as part of our subscription fee to the game and last time I checked normal comic book prices were $1.95 to $2.25 an issue so maybe they should start charging for those each month, but then you would all just cancel them.

LivingHellfire your idea I am sure will get looked at by NCSoft, but I am doubting they would get enough new customers at the increased rate to make up the difference, but at least you expressed an idea or opinion without getting bent over it or making bad annalogies to the continual rising gas prices.

This analogy is not really any better, but let me ask everyone should you get to see a movie sequel for free because you paid to see the first one or should they at least lower their ticket price back to what it was the year the first film came out? A sequel is still a stand alone film as well as an expansion of the story. I am not saying if they decide to raise the fee and that is still a big IF right now that it would be right, but considering all the other things in the entertainment industry we pay for continuations, expansions, sequels we have been doing it for years and never did more than complain to our selves and usually the price goes up each time if only by $00.25

For the reason I stated why I thought LivingHellfire's idea would not work I don't think an increase of more than $2 a month would work ( again that is IF they go that route ) as I am sure as business people the executives at NCSoft have research showing them what that kind of price increase would do to their market and customer base.

We can only wait and see and AFTER NCSoft has given their decision then everyone can rant about how evil it is if they don't like the ACTUAL decision. .... I wonder will any of us come back and apologize to NCSoft and Cryptic for our disparaging remarks if they decide they can accomodate one fee of $15 a month for both games??

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What if they grandfathered everyone who's been playing CoH all this time and allow them to play both at no additional cost, but for anyone who starts playing after CoV comes out they pay an additional rate of $5-$7 to play both?


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Yeah, that would really fly well with new customers. Could you imagine the posts from new players on these forums? That wouldn't be a wise marketing idea. A company can't show favorites when dealing with real money, that would put your customers on unequal ground. To succeed a company has to show that they care about every customer new and old or else they start to lose one base as a customer.

You're idea is just not smart business.

I think an extra couple of bucks a month to get the expansion (CoV) and all it's extras is well worth it. I'm well aware of how much it takes not only to develop a game like this in the first place, but to keep in maintained _and_ add new content, which will soon be for both facets (CoH and CoV) - You guys have to be compensated both for your work, as well as to ensure the ongoing viability of the game.

Personally, my ~$18 (Canadian) a month has been worth _every_ penny

Guess I'd best get my 2c in here..

I see CoV as more content, advanced content that will be purchased off the shelf vs free content in upgrades (IE issue 2 & 3)

I would hate to see precidence of charging additional subscription fees for "expansion" modules such as CoV.

Customer buys CoH they can play CoH and the grey area where both Hero's and Villans can Pvp.
Customer buys CoV they can play CoV and the grey area where both Hero's and Villans can Pvp.
Customer buys both, they can play in all zones, no added subscription fee.

Software costs are compensated with the purchase of the CoV box.


If added subscription is necessary then I wont even buy the box for CoV as I have no interest in playing there, but I will miss my friends on the nights they are in CoV vs CoH. No added Subscription fee would allow me buy CoV and dabble while they explore. I can not in good conscious buy a game that will increase my monthly out lay to give me an option I wouldnt choose to do on my own.

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So far, the goal for CoV is:

CoH alone: $15
CoV alone: $15
CoV and CoH both registered: $15

But since nothing is finite, this might chance (and I'm with you guys; if they start charging double, they'll probably lose half their subscribers anyways)

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I would be cool with this. But Gaffer has stated that it is something they are now in talks over, and I know how the Statesman feels about it from reading his responses to this issue. I believe they will fight for us, the comsumers, and now we will just have to wait and see.

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Remember this whole thread was speculation and even what Gaffer said about it relating to any increase was not fact. ALSO REMEMBER we are getting updates small or large on a regular basis for FREE what other MMO out there is doing that??

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Tha actual content in issue 1 and 2 is still far less than any EQ expansion I picked up. Even discounting the bugged quests (and youd have to discount the buggy missions, arcs, task forces etc), theres still tons of them that are good, and allow for players solving them, rather than being lead around by the nose by a janitor NPC contact, or bringing something to Azuria every other arc. AV fight "strats" consist of get tank and hit mob until mob dies. They are incredibly simplistic compared to nearly every single raid post tier 1/2 in EQ, not to mention the single group trials in GoD and Omens. Theres nothing in comparison to an epic weapon quest (and I'm not talking the item itself, I'm talking problem solving).

I love CoH a lot. I stopped playing EQ for it. EQ's expansions contained a lot more. CoH has the foundation for a good game, and its getting better, but theres some aspects I wish were a bit more complex. Hopefully the detective system will fix some of those flaws.

But CoH's free content isnt nearly on par with expansions people pay for. Can you imagine them charging 20 bucks for issue 2?