Offline SG Members in Bases!
By
2Negative,
Posted on: 2004-10-28 16:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I'm jazzed about the idea in general, just having a base. However, after reading this, sign me up! I want my main (also the SG leader) monitoring the other members and preparing for his next run-in with evil!
OP: Good idea- and one that faces many MMORPG's.
When player cities were added to SWG, within a month people were complaining about "ghost cities" everywhere. What did they expect. While a 40-character area might seem huge, take into account that of that set:
- 1/8 are alts of another primary, or two people share 1 PC, so only half will be on at a time (-5 from total)
- I'd say another 1/8 are inactive accounts, with players trying out other servers, beta tests, or new releases. (-5 more, 30 remaining)
- at most, half the players will be on at any given time- usually the 4-hour "peak" period (-15 from total, 15 remaining).
- when they are online, the player area only made up a fraction of the game region. I'll be generous and say that a third of the time they're online, they're in the player area, but I doubt they're even there that long. There's too much to do (-10 more players, 5 remaining)
So, during PEAK times, that's 5 out of 40 in the player hall / city... and I think these numbers were conservative. I don't even want to think about off-peak hours.
It's pretty tough to make a large place seem populated by players.
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HOW ABOUT
a hot tub too? Then the male and female heroes can get nude on a server made for adults.
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Ummm, Wow dude.
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The problem with off-line characters being present in the base is what happens if the base is raided (by players or possibly PvE, who knows)? Do you really want to come back on and find out your hero was defeated while you were away?
Servants on the other hand is an interesting idea.
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Awww
. Thats easy to solve. These offline heroes are essentially NPCs right? Well if the base is attacked simply have them do that run around like idiots with their hands in the air animation. 
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I'd have to stage ambushes just to get the screenshots of teammates running around like cowards... 
I do think, however, this is a good idea overall - the exact implementation would require refinement but I think it adds some wonderful ambience to the game setting.
Syphon Strike
Prophet of The Ancients Returned
50 Kinetics/Psychic Defender - Virtue
Back after two years of WoW!
I think one of the problems with having your character fight like an NPC when you're logged out is the AI isn't designed to run every type of power and character. Imagine watching your offline buddy's blaster do a huge attack, then run up to the villian and start using brawl. That's what the bad guys do now.
Now maybe this could work if the Devs made an AI program for each arch type and the NPC versions were more loosely based on the actual characters, rather than being the real characters down to every last power. Blasters hang back and use the first and second attack powers in their primaries(even if they only picked one of them) and fly away if engaged in melee(even if they don't have flight). Scrappers and Tankers charge in and do their thing, and each have a blanket amount of defense and resistance now matter what their defensive powers are(which increases with level). Controllers use holds, and run away if in melee, and like Denfenders, use one Buff/debuff power appropriate to their set. Empaths use Heal other, Stormies use Hurricane, FF use FF, etc.
Defeated offline heroes suffer no xp loss or anything if defeated(since it wasn't really their character anyways), and are not even notified if they are defeated upon logging in. They only get a message that their base was attacked and the outcome.
That way, an offline 50th level Tanker is still a big threat, and the only sure way to attack a base is to stalk it and wait for him to leave before attacking.
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I think one of the problems with having your character fight like an NPC when you're logged out is the AI isn't designed to run every type of power and character. Imagine watching your offline buddy's blaster do a huge attack, then run up to the villian and start using brawl. That's what the bad guys do now.
Now maybe this could work if the Devs made an AI program for each arch type and the NPC versions were more loosely based on the actual characters, rather than being the real characters down to every last power. Blasters hang back and use the first and second attack powers in their primaries(even if they only picked one of them) and fly away if engaged in melee(even if they don't have flight). Scrappers and Tankers charge in and do their thing, and each have a blanket amount of defense and resistance now matter what their defensive powers are(which increases with level). Controllers use holds, and run away if in melee, and like Denfenders, use one Buff/debuff power appropriate to their set. Empaths use Heal other, Stormies use Hurricane, FF use FF, etc.
Defeated offline heroes suffer no xp loss or anything if defeated(since it wasn't really their character anyways), and are not even notified if they are defeated upon logging in. They only get a message that their base was attacked and the outcome.
That way, an offline 50th level Tanker is still a big threat, and the only sure way to attack a base is to stalk it and wait for him to leave before attacking.
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Very good idea.
As long as we get SG bases with a Training Room that can spawn any Mobs we want to practice(with no XP Gain) I'm Happy.
If Offline PC is too hard to implement somehow, just have some sort of Hero Storage.
Science/Mutant = Stasis Tubes
Magic = Phased Out
Technology = Something along the Lines of Borg Regen Hives
Natural = Yoga time baby :P
Just a thought
Really a nice idea, but the overhead would be huge. It would mean an occurance of every super group with a base to have its own area in memory at all times that any member was on line. It would have to track all SG members as to on or off line, and it would have to add or delete teammates as they came or went. It is not like a door mission that has a max of 8 people to be there for.
Sorry but my guess is it would be to cpu intensive to be viable.
Sir Gort Lvl 40 Emp/NRG Defender Liberty
I am definately down w/this idea. They raise a valid point. SG bases would be kinda sorry if there was nothing but an empty corridor and some computers. Don't care how flashy it ends up. Whole point of an SG base in my eyes is to instill pride in an SG's members. What better way to do that than to have they're teammates chillin' there while offline. Something you could add to this which would fix my biggest complaint about the Super Group tool...let people see all the characters info just like in normal gameplay when you click on em. Would help out in a lot of ways. New members would know who they could group with around they're level. They'd know who to ask questions about badges and who needed badge missions they had. Would be a good deal all around. Here's hopin'.
I agree that having even the toons just there would be taxing to the servers, we don't want to do anything that might slow those down.
However, having a seperate area off the COH website, or have NCSoft give us some code or something to post on our own webpages, to have some sort of control over events in the SG Bases, such as who is online, planning events, or even doing something like buying and selling stuff from other SG, without having to get online.
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Really a nice idea, but the overhead would be huge. It would mean an occurance of every super group with a base to have its own area in memory at all times that any member was on line. It would have to track all SG members as to on or off line, and it would have to add or delete teammates as they came or went. It is not like a door mission that has a max of 8 people to be there for.
Sorry but my guess is it would be to cpu intensive to be viable.
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Er ... the servers already track all SG members as to on or offline ... ever open up your Supergroup window?
It wouldn't have to access all the really intense stuff, i.e. everybody's costumes, until the online members actually went to the base, and then all it has to do is "pretend" that the member came online in terms of data access - it would just make them into uncontrollable NPCs instead of controlled PCs.
Doesn't seem like that huge a task, really.
It tracks status as a text item.
Putting in fully populated bases complete with the graphic load for them is potentially different.
Course the base doesn't get populated until entered assuming instancing but just one or two players hanging out in the base then loads in another 70 characters that would cause an impact on the servers.
Phosphorus
I like the idea of supergroup members wandering arround, tinkering etc. I don't think the entire group should be there all the time. I don't like the idea of logged out characters fighting. I think that they should periodically get up and walk through a door and despawn. By the same token, every so often a door opens an a randomly selected logged off hero spawns and walks in. Just before a raid all of the non-player heroes would just "happen" to walk out. Same kind of thing if a player logs in. This way you don't have heroes fighting badly, a crowd of bots to keep track of, a base full of alts that is really tough to attack, and yet you get the ambiance of a base with a bunch of heroes in it.
Servants would be better than nothing though.
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It tracks status as a text item.
Putting in fully populated bases complete with the graphic load for them is potentially different.
Course the base doesn't get populated until entered assuming instancing but just one or two players hanging out in the base then loads in another 70 characters that would cause an impact on the servers.
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True. I was just debunking the implication above that the servers would have to track and plot the facing, stance, activity, costume, and everything else about every character in the SG 24/7.
The servers wouldn't have to pay any attention at all to the offline folks until somebody went to the base - then it would check to see who was offline and start rendering a few people. This isn't substantially different than going into a mission and the system generating 10 terrified civilians in the mission area running around like chickens etc. And it wouldn't have to place 70 people all in a huge chorus line in the gymnasium-sized entrance hall when one guy went to HQ to grab his keys. It would only need to track a few offline pals at a time for each live player in the base - again, not substantially different than systems in place now.
The only real system taxation would be dredging the costumes from memory, and that doesn't seem terribly overwhelming.
Hell, if system taxation is really a big deal, I'd be happy if there was ONE randomly selected offline member manning the comm center, and he ran out (despawned) to go turn on the force fields in a player-inaccessible room the instant that there was a base raid.
If we really want to have HQs feel something other than empty, though, I think multiple (not necessarily multitudinous, just multiple) offline heroes is the only way to go. Jumpsuited minions really only work for villains, and I can't really envision having 20 butlers as being anything but immersion-breaking (much more so than just having offline folks despawn inexplicably during raids - though, again, I covered the raid problem in an earlier post - search page 1 for the word 'fluctuate' if you missed it).
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I said it before, and I'll say it again since the old thread vanished.
Fill up those empty corridors and rooms! What good is having a huge base if only one or two people in your SG are online and you're rattling around in it like two pebbles in a 50 gallon oil drum?
I want to see my offline SG mates sparring in the training hall, lounging in the rec room, tinkering with the defensive cannons, monitoring the security cameras and/or the citywide comm network, arguing in the conference room, watching TV, playing poker, and maybe even cooking up a little dinner for their hardworking (online) compatriots. Heck, how cool would it be to see two of your own alts working together in the crime lab?
I want this a lot. Please?
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Well, I would settle for them just sitting at some table, looking over plans to destroy the world. Something simple. And when the person logs on, they kinda vanish, or in Star Trek fashion, they are like beamed to where the person last logged off.
Man this would be cool if they could impliment it.
5 STARS!!!
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Do you really want to come back on and find out your hero was defeated while you were away?
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Me? Absolutely. I have no problem with this at all.
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Maybe I'm just a glotton for punishment, but I have to agree with you sentiment on this - if this concept did go into play, I for one would see it as huge step forward. My character(s) are supposed to be heroes 24/7, and that does technically include when I am not logged on. Defending my SG base would only make sense, regardless as to my log-in status.
It would make the game a bit more "realistic", but I am sure for everyone that agrees with me, there are 50 who think the idea is unfair.... and I have to admit that I see their point as well.
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Dude, that is a badass idea!
It'd be a [censored] to program, but it'd be so cool! (and it'd make it so that SG members are kinda assigned stuff to do when they're offline..
"i wanna be the chef!"
"You're always the chef! Be a scientist!"
"Guard! Let me be a guard then!"
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(IC) Hell, man the KWIPSTER wants to be the CHEF!
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What about allowing us to 'hire' and build NPC members of our supergroup that will always stay at the headquarters to defend it?
Have them work in archtype and origin and power choice advancement on a similar scale to PCs, only we advance them through paying influence.
So a powerful supergroup with a lot of extra influence to pool would have a supergroup base defended by high level NPC heroes where a lesser supergroup might only be able to afford general defenses.
It'd be another great innovation on the part of Cryptic, I think. Everyone has been talking about how cool the character customization tool is for CoH since the beginning. This would be another chance to enjoy that, and work toward the dual benefit of defending your supergroup base AND making it feel populated all the time.
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I think this is a great idea. Instead of having mindless NPCs running around like some of you other guys has prescribed or even having our offline entities in the base at all would just be too hard because say there was a raid and our "offline" entities killed another person, that person would have debt but if they killed you, no debt would be given.
That's why I think this hiring NPC members would be great. The more powerful the sg, the more powerful the NPCs would be. That also promotes teamwork gathering up influence to add to the NPCs power lvl, and SG morale would be awesome knowing that you have uber NPCs and you contributed to the cause. That's just me though. 
If having 75 characters in a base at the same time is such a heavy load for the server, there could always be a cap. Maybe only ___ of the highest level characters could be there and only ___ amount of villians could attack at any one time
This is not a gratuitous bump to make sure the thread stays alive through the next board purge! Uh ... I just had another ... uh ... additional idea ... something about ... oh, I forget. Not a gratuitous bump, though!
I think it would be cooler to just have like a lounging area (like as it mensioned up top) for our heroes that nobody can get to unless your a SG member. and here would be like the defence ranks:
Guard: 5k influ description: very weak needs many to defeat even one hero.
Elite Guard: 20k influ description: not as weak as guard but still takes several to defeat one hero.
Attack Dog: 17k influ description: slightly less powerful than the Elite Guard, and has no ranged attacks.
Turret: 30k influ description: is well armored and deals decent dmg but still takes about 6-7 to kill even 1 hero, but even that is low chance.
Heavy Turret: 60k influ description: is much more powerful then the normal turret, but still takes several to kill a hero.
Plasma Turret: 80k influ description: is very strong, 2 can take on a hero.
Robot Guard: 10k influ description: is more powerful then the normal guard, but still cant take on a hero.
Elite Robot Guard: 40k influ description: is very strong, 4-5 could take on one hero.
Small Robotic Spider: 1k influ description: although very weak, in numbers of 20-40 can easily overwelm a group of heroes.
Robotic Spider: 30k influ description: very strong, 3-4 can take on 1 hero.
Greater Robotic Spider: 200k influ description: very powerful, can easily slaughter 2-3 heroes all by itself.
cool huh? 
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Actually, as far as coolness goes, I wouldn't even mind if base raids had "fake battles". In other words, offline members of the SG could be fighting "fake" enemies that can't be targeted. It would again be window dressing that would make the whole event more immersive and "totally awesome". It would ratchet up the adrenaline to feel like you are in a larger battle. Granted, this carries the potential confusion of trying to attack enemies that aren't real, but consider this: it could even reflect overall status of the fight. As the raid was lost, your offline heroes might be going down or surrounded by 2-3 guys. If the raid were being defeated, you could see the offline guys mopping up.
OK OK. This again adds complexity. But I am just saying: nothing needs to be modelled for reality as I understand it. What I think Zombra means (and certainly how I feel) is that it would be cool *looking* even if it had no actual effect on the game to have these offline characters hanging around. Improves immersion, roleplaying etc etc etc...
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I think that's easily implemented. The characters involved aren't targetable for an entirely DIFFERENT reason: they're not in the same area as you. I've been on missions where I can see rooms behind glass, but the rooms have no access and are not on the map. Apex may be fighting a villain in his room, but outside the windows we see the offline Horus duking it out. Each HQ could have a number of such places inherently, accessed by powers or ATs or even costume choices - a biohazard room, for instance, could be only guarded by tankers, mutants, or anyone in a gasmask; a reactor core could be guarded by radiation defenders; etc. The rooms wouldn't even be there if no qualifying members of the SG exist one way or another, since what magic chantry has a nuclear power plant? These would all be extant room types and skins, so I think it's eminently doable.
Also, re: server load... Have the heroes and their opponents still be spawns. They don't load until you get to a certain point on the map. You leave, they disappear, and might not be there when you come back... just like real people in rooms! 
If Heroes only show in the bases when they log off in the base, I think that would lower the amount of heroes the servers would have to render. Mabye at first most people would run back to their SG to log out, but after awhile, I doubt people will make the extra treck before heading to bed without a good reason. If it still would cause performance problems, then perhaps they could limit it to the first 15 offline people in the base become NPC's, if they were also base guardians, this could allow villian groups to lay seige to the base and give online members a chance to reach their base before it was fully overrun.
I have a better idea. Instead of offline SG mates, specific predetermined bad guys you've defeated. 'Working off their debt to society'
I love the idea of my character just hagning out in the base even when I'm not there, I'm not so sure I want him doing any REAL fighting without me (I wouldn't mind the no-damage Fluff-Fights that go on between the Military and villians in some zones though).
And the idea of a servant(s) protecting us as we slumber is a must! I don't know if any of you have ever seen the tv Anime series the Big O, but having my own Norman Burg (a mild-mannered butler with a BFG and whole belts full of grenades) protecting my base would rock!
I think it would be easier to simply make an NPC mirror of the hero that follows an NPC AI.
The hero would not incur any debt by the defeat of his mirror.
Hero logs off and upon logging if ((Hero1 == Supergroupmember) $$ (Supergroupbase ==1)) calls the HeroMirror.object into creation which simply copies his primary/secondary powers and enhancements, gives him random or prechosen base location, a random movement set fitting the location and inserts an NPC UI.
The HeroMirror goes through it's movement set unless the base is attacked at which it follows the NPC UI similar to AV bosses.
The hero gains no debt since he is not really logged on..and the base gains his defense during the off hours.
However this very same code could be exploitable by larger organizations.
If this proves too difficult I do concur with the concept of being able to purchase NPCs as security gaurds, maids, trainee heros, mentors, etc with influence who can aid in the base defense while the offline heros "attend to other matters."
Doc Endeavor - (50) FF Defender
Gravewalker - (40) Emp Defender
Duty: The sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things, you can never do more-you should never wish to do less.