Philosophical ramblings, what's the point of 50?
By
ahaha,
Posted on: 2004-09-23 13:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
There has been a plethora of research done in regard to what people get out of RPGs. One of the papers that sheds some great light on MMOs is actually a paper about MUDs - Click Link Here!
One of the things you can see as you poke around the boards is these different player types represented in posts - and the conflict that arises from enjoying and preferring different things in games.
Its kind of a gamer personality type most people have a primary types, but will do other types of gaming to achieve the goals of their primary type.
There are Achievers, Killers, Explorers, and Socializers.
Achievers want to level.
Killers want to impose themselves on others.
Explorers want to see/do everything.
Socializers want to talk about it.
CoH examples
Achievers Power Levelers
Killers Griefers/KSers
Explorers Badges
Socializers Dance Club
A good MMO tries to make all types of play available in their games.
A good player realizes that games are different things to different people.
[ QUOTE ]
When I log into CoH its *work*: boring, tedious work. Why does it take so long to level in City of Heroes, I believe the answer is very obvious, its because City of Heroes is a business, and businesses exist to make profit. If City of Heroes was like the game Fable, they would no longer be making a lot of money, their money would come in one big surge. You invest a million dollars, then pray you sell a million copies at $35.00 a piece. With MMORPGs their goal is to make the initial surge of money, then make money over time, as well as micro-surges of cash in the form of expansions once a year or so.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you 100%. Levelling in this game is painfully monotonous and repetitive.
What we need are more things to strive towards, more rewards, and more intriguing missions. What if we could work towards:
1) new costume enhancements (besides capes and auras), such as boots, gloves, jetpacks, wings, etc.
2) extra enhancement slots and/or extra inspiration slots. These would be awesome rewards for something big
3) automatic gain of, say, 50%, or 100% (or whatever) of your current level, for completing something big, instead of just chipping away, a few xp at a time. Or, a 'free level' card, that you can hold onto (or sell?) that allows you to advance a full level at any time you wish
4) a 'get out of debt FREE card'...clears all your debt, anytime
5) 'deeper' mission content, with missions that occur randomly during your gameplay -- why do bad guys always stand around waiting for you to show up? (Picture this: you get called by your custom 'bat-signal' (I can't believe this game doesn't have such a concept)..."there's a bank robbery in progress in Independence Port, the bad guys are fleeing South on Valour Bridge, in a grey sedan...stop them!")
or
"The Baxter building is on fire! There are 20 people trapped on the 87th floor! Save them! You have 15 minutes!")
Missions just dont' have enough variety, or RISK. I'd love to see a reputation concept in this game...if you choose to let the poor people of the Baxter building burn to death, or you FAIL to save them, your reputation suffers. Save them, and you gain the admiration of all.
When people talk about lack of content, I think this is what they're referring to (at least this is my interpretation of CoH's 'lack of content'). Agree, or disagree. This is my opinion only.
One problem that MMORPG's face is trying to strike a balance to give a little something to everyone. Usually what happens is no one is really happy.
A mmoprg in development should have a mission. It should Identify what "type" of mmorpg it wants to be then stay the course even when the "vocal few" start their tirade.
Case in point..SWG...nuff said.
What I hope CoH doesn't do is loose sight of its main mission and starting vision.
I believe that was to make a fast paced, action oriented MMORPG that allows EVERY AT to have a fun, excitine experience....
Adding obvious time-sinks, making the journey too long and drawn out with little reward in between will get CoH off track.
This game cannot compete with the more traditional MMORPG's about to be released....But they can kick butt in another area......Fast paced fun, with the emphasis on fun.
If your game is mainly about great combat and powers(we are Heroes)then stick to that........Don't start implementing spawn camping and drudgery.
Honestly, I believe the key to CoH's longevity is in its ability to fill a niche in the MMORPG market....
No crafting, no housing, no uber-items gotten through spawn camping......But, holy mackerel powers and lots of BOOM, WHACK, ZOWY, style combat and progression.
Back to your roots CoH............K.I.S.S.
And yet it is the achievers who will complain leveling is too boring, because they ignore all other aspects of the game and devote all their time to one goal.
I want to get to Lvl 50!
Some of my reasoning is I like to help others. Right now my tanker is worthless, not strong enought to help lower, not strong enought to help higher.
I cant belive the ammount of players some people have!
I have spent soooo much time alone on my main that i don't even want to think about starting an alt!!
I just dont have the time!
the reward for getting to 50 is that you get to start a new guy.
[ QUOTE ]
And yet it is the achievers who will complain leveling is too boring, because they ignore all other aspects of the game and devote all their time to one goal.
[/ QUOTE ]
Only if they feel that their fun is being hampered to make fun for others. Leveling is fun. Forceing people to level slower is makeing them do less of the thing that makes the game fun to them.
yes that too!!
If I can finish off my Tank (get it to lvl50) Then i can do an alt.
I just dont have the time to play 5 guys at once.
And if I dont finish my Tank, I will fill like a quitter.
I would rather just not play at all then be a quitter.
Just the way i feel about the game though, as i have seen on these forums EVERYONE has their opinion.
I want to get to level 50 for 4 reasons:
1) To see a plan come to fruitioin
2) To be able to go back and do all the old quests or new content I missed (exploration badges etc)
3) The ability to help others
4) The ability to be able to focus on a new toon
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
You should find the paper about MUD whimping and make sure Cryptic reads it 
Are you saying you'd rather quit than be a quitter? I do understand...I had way too many alts in EQ and as a result never got any to 65 before I finally migrated entirely to CoH. I am determined to get my main to 50 in CoH before I dedicate much time to alts. So I'm a coffee achiever for now, but I imagine I'll be more of an explorer once my main hits 50.
[ QUOTE ]
Explorers want to see/do everything.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please remove the level gates from content that I've missed!
[ QUOTE ]
The first was equipment. There is a competitive side in all humans; it varies in intensity in different people. For a long time on my server I was the Top Druid and later one of the Top Monks. What drove me was the thrill of being one of the top players. This commitment though, to compete at that level required massive amounts of time invested as well as a lot of political involvement. But, alas, I was in love with becoming more powerful as a player. Saddly, CoH has no equipment to strive for. It could be argued that the super powered enhancements that you get from Hamidon would be Striveable worthy, but they just dont peak my interest.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's also accolades from badges, and coming up you'll have signature weapons. But really, the EQ model of camping and guild control is absolutely nauseating to me. The first time I had to hand over some drop I needed to a groupmate who couldn't use it so he could give it to his level 6 alt, I'd uninstall in irritation.
[ QUOTE ]
The second was accomplishment. It was exciting to conquer new things. I loved the Planes of Power expansion in Everquest, and I loved stealing my first relic in Dark Age. Nothing got the blood pumping like a massive raid on a keep or downing a God/Dragon for the first time. I guess it could be argued that the Archvillians and Task Force missions are strivable events, although in general they dont take much to get through.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say the badge system adds a lot more to accomplish. There's also task forces, of course. Also, there's a fair bit of fun in finding ways to beat tough individual tasks - like when you get the L35 vampyr spawn and you're L31 and the purple patch (v1) is in. That's a tough fight. An aberration, sure, but you run across lots of weird situational challenges in CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
The third reason to getting to level 50 was for Player Hunting/Player Killing etc. While the EQ PK system was flawed, it evolved over time making higher levels worth while. Dark Age of Camelot was centered on the combat aspect, the reason TO get 50 was simply to eliminate the other guy. As a Midguard (and you other mids know (ps Albs suck)) it was *always* a challenge to fight for what was yours. There were also the MUDs, that rivaled any MMORPG in their time. While they were text based, some of the most exciting battles Ive ever been in were through a little telnet connection
[/ QUOTE ]
I played several characters that were absolute monstrosities on Carrion Fields, the mother of all PK Muds. I am *very* skeptical than an MMO will have balanced PK, especially if it isn't just rock-paper-scissors with builds. I think for that, we'll have to wait on a game that combines reflex-based play that benefits from "practice" with a true RPG setting like CoH. But I think it's safe to say that L50 will be useful in CoH, too.
[ QUOTE ]
The final reason to reach the maximum level was just because its fun to get to the end level. When I play a MMORPG, leveling should just be something that happens while Im doing other things. I dont think any game has quite nipped that yet though, except for the text based MUDs and games that were designed as single player games, with a multiplayer aspect thrown in.
I just recently beat the game Fable after a measly 16 hours of game play, which comes down to $3.15 per hour of game play. Granted Im going to play a second time to try the evil path, but really thats pretty sad. City of Heroes has to me only one reason out of four to get to level 50, and its the same reason I got to level 99 in Diablo, Max Power in Fable and many other games
just because its fun to get to the end. That being said, Im missing something currently, thats the fun part. This isnt City of Heroes issue, its solely mine, so please dont take this as a flame.
[/ QUOTE ]
My suggestion? More social interaction. How much of your grinding was solo street hunting? It's dull, and it's not the game as it was meant to be played. I'm doing it, but I have a fairly optimal fire/dev blaster who can get 2+ bubbles per hour even at 42. I play him in fun little snatches of time, here and there.
Also, note other goodies that you get from levelling up, and hitting 50: capes, auras, costumes, and coming soon: Epic ATs.
Personally, I like that there are so many ways to play. I can hunt with groups, or solo. I can mission with groups, or solo. I can roleplay, or not. There's task forces, and when it's all said and done, it's a fairly different game with a new AT. I am inspired by the rapid influx of new goodies, and heartened by comments about new missions coming (since Statesman said they are working to make it easier to add missions). I am hoping that by the time I play through most of the existing missions, 50% of the "new" missions I get playing as an Epic AT will be different.
[ QUOTE ]
When I log into CoH its *work*: boring, tedious work. Why does it take so long to level in City of Heroes, I believe the answer is very obvious, its because City of Heroes is a business, and businesses exist to make profit. If City of Heroes was like the game Fable, they would no longer be making a lot of money, their money would come in one big surge. You invest a million dollars, then pray you sell a million copies at $35.00 a piece. With MMORPGs their goal is to make the initial surge of money, then make money over time, as well as micro-surges of cash in the form of expansions once a year or so.
[/ QUOTE ]
To some extent that's true, but the game isn't a big sham; an MMORPG makes money by keeping its customers happy. At this point, CoH is fun and is investing a lot into making the game better. I'm *hopeful* that their better-than-expected sales and subscriber base will speed development along.
CoH has gotten so much *right* - and it's very ambitious. Some comments from Statesman have as much as implied that CoH wasn't *really* even a complete game as it was released; and it is still quite fun. It's a lot more fun to grind across the dozens of zones of CoH that it ever was to repeat the same 2-3 maps in Hell/Hell diablo 2 that you had to do to get your last 40+ levels.
[ QUOTE ]
So I guess my philosophical issue is, am I a MMORPG kinda person anymore? I no longer have desires to spend 14 hours of a day camping a zone for an item, I rather prefer to log on for two hours here and there, and then log off. The problem is that MMORPGs in general reward those that are most likely to cause greater profit. CoH isnt really interested in players like me; they prefer the people that are enamored by the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. This is exactly why descriptions of Everquest *horrify* me, and why I like CoH. Instanced missions and solo-ability mean I can play in little bits OR get on and play big bursts, and not be at a disadvantage. Sure, I won't level to 50 overnight playing an hour a day, but I still think a fire/dev blaster can hit 50 in 200 hours in the hands of an average player, and that's not bad, if levelling up is your thing.
Really, I'm hoping a larger RPing community forms over time. You can be *anyone*. A mage. A robot. A vampire. It's a lot of fun to interact.
[ QUOTE ]
And with that long stream of consciousness type discussion, I think Ive come to my answer I dont expect any made it through all this, really its just for my own edification. My conclusion is mine, I hope that this allows others that are confused as to why they play to place their thoughts down, and come to their own conclusions, good, bad or indifferent
[/ QUOTE ]
I started CoH because I thought: ooh, superheroes. I played hard for the first month because I thought: flying is the coolest thing *ever*! I think I'll be playing for a long time yet because there's so many fun power sets to enjoy, and a *lot* of missions to do, and more piling in all the time. It's fairly easy to fight through stuff with a group, and easy to get a group.
In fact, my hope is that a lot of people who (like me) have teetered to the powerlevelling side will slow down and group up more in the future, RP more in the future... because there's a dearth of smart players in groups, especially at the low levels.
Either way, I see myself playing CoH for a long time to come - maybe not as much as I do now.
[ QUOTE ]
When I log into CoH its *work*: boring, tedious work.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then I want Your Job buddy. You know what I did at work today? After Scrubbing the crusted-on poop that someone left in the tullets for a week, I move 2 tons of freight for the THIRD time in as many days. Then I go outside in the rain and have to restack about 1200 feet of 2" thick galvanized pipe. All the while in between this I have to run from the way back of the building to the way front multiple times to fill propane for people who's temperment matches the weather all too well, and this is about 2 acres or more it's sittin on so it's not a short walk. Then Mop mop mop, and mop some more(You want Tedious? Go mop an Acre of 30-year old Vinyl Tile in a day) And yadda yadda that's about as good as it gets most days. So when I finally come home, sittin down to some CoH is an absolute frikken joy compared to REAL work. At work I watch the clock. In CoH ever since Issue2, the last thing I watch is the EXP bar.
There's a lot more to do in the game now than just power level. It's not their fault if you've never experienced real work, or the desitination is more important to you than the journey.
[ QUOTE ]
There has been a plethora of research done in regard to what people get out of RPGs. One of the papers that sheds some great light on MMOs is actually a paper about MUDs - Click Link Here!
[/ QUOTE ]
did NCSoft send out a memo advising it's employees to use the word "plethora" as much as possible?
^^^ snicker ^^^
As another side-note on research regarding "why do people play these games"... I've been following Nick Yee's work since he started. I recommend checking it out
#28470 - MA & YOU! Quick Tutorial
Poster 1481: Cause of How Some Silly Stealed My Wings
Cultist fun in 3586 Project: Perilous - Into the Chthonian Pit
Formerly of Perils of Paula!
OK, seriously: 14 hours a day? 400 hours of your life dedicated to a game? Hey, if it floats your boat, then go for it. But do realize (and this isn't directed at the OP, it's a general statement) if your play style is to sink that much time into a game, CoH probably isn't for you. CoH is about running around and blasting things. That's basically it. You blast things. Or, if you prefer, you punch them in the head. And that's what it should be. That's what I pay for. I want a MMO that's simple; I want to be able to drop it for two days, play only for an hour, and not feel like I'm missing out. When I get home from work, and I'm tired, it's fun to mindlessly blast a couple of arch villians for a bit. Sometimes team up with some heroes... and blast arch villians. Yesterday, for variety, I gathered a few badges, and in between gathering badges I blasted some arch villians.
I don't think CoH is really supposed to be for the really hard core gamers. It's a nice medium ground. There's some extra content in there to make it interesting in between villain blasting, but it's not a game where you spend 100 hours building a house or mining for ore or sewing a leather jock strap. It's about slowly building a little super hero, and then running the hero through his or her paces. Unless Cryptic wants to add a soap opera module, running around and blasting arch villians more or less defines a super heroe's existance. All the other stuff that takes up so much time in other MMOs would really just be extraneous junk.
I say, leave CoH the way it is for those of us who enjoy it for what it is supposed to be. Hard core gamers who want to mine ore or sit in on virtual town counsel meetings might consider going back to SWG or EQ.
[ QUOTE ]
There has been a plethora of research done in regard to what people get out of RPGs. One of the papers that sheds some great light on MMOs is actually a paper about MUDs - Click Link Here!
One of the things you can see as you poke around the boards is these different player types represented in posts - and the conflict that arises from enjoying and preferring different things in games.
Its kind of a gamer personality type most people have a primary types, but will do other types of gaming to achieve the goals of their primary type.
There are Achievers, Killers, Explorers, and Socializers.
Achievers want to level.
Killers want to impose themselves on others.
Explorers want to see/do everything.
Socializers want to talk about it.
CoH examples
Achievers Power Levelers
Killers Griefers/KSers
Explorers Badges
Socializers Dance Club
A good MMO tries to make all types of play available in their games.
A good player realizes that games are different things to different people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why would you cater to Killers, since their fun depends on ruining the fun of all the other types of player? How does that make a "good MMO"? That is like the legal system catering to rapists because 'that's how they have fun'. I don't see it.
I don't want 50. I want to have fun.
<--- Socializer and proud of it 
Now improve the dance club!
[ QUOTE ]
So I guess my philosophical issue is, am I a MMORPG kinda person anymore? I no longer have desires to spend 14 hours of a day camping a zone for an item, I rather prefer to log on for two hours here and there, and then log off. The problem is that MMORPGs in general reward those that are most likely to cause greater profit. CoH isnt really interested in players like me; they prefer the people that are enamored by the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
You make a lot of good points that I've discussed w/ my friends a lot, however I would argue with this one. You raise the issue of what type of player creates the greatest profit for the company, and as we all know, profit is equal to revenue minus expenses. The revenue any MMOG company gets from a player is relatively fixed (i.e. $15/month). The expenses, however, vary widely. They have fixed expenses, but in fact the more a person plays their game, the more expensive that player is. They consume more bandwidth (which is very expensive). They have more customer service issues (also very expensive). They are more demanding on the design/updates of the game (very expensive).
In fact, the best MMOG from a pure business profit standpoint would be one that had 100k players that paid their monthly fees, but never played the game, never needed assistance, and never asked for changes. I could run that game off of my PDA, and if I could make $1.5 million/month to do it, I'd start right now.
This isn't a realistic scenario, but my point is that casual gamers are where the money really is. They are interested enough to get more people into the game, and to not quit, but don't consume resources. The scenario above would fail because people would eventually stop paying money, and the game would die. A game that consisted of purely powergamers who played 60 hours a week would go broke, guaranteed. Sony probably made more money from people who forgot to delete their accounts when they quit playing than you can imagine, because they are zero expense and all profit.
But Daias, you are overlooking the value of an advocate customer. If you have someone playing who so enjoys the game they actively work to recruit new customers for you they are actually REDUCING your expenses by decreasing your marketing costs.
I am having fun.
I will get to 50.
They are not mutually exclusive.
This post is going to probably go long, but Im going to think out loud about what is the reason for wanting to get to 50 in CoH.
I dont expect any made it through all this, really its just for my own edification. My conclusion is mine, I hope that this allows others that are confused as to why they play to place their thoughts down, and come to their own conclusions, good, bad or indifferent 
When I played Everquest (about 400days played, thats a lot) I would often reflect on what it was that kept me going, I would do the same thing for Dark Age and many other MUDs that I would play. Overall four things keep me in a MMORPG.
The first was equipment. There is a competitive side in all humans; it varies in intensity in different people. For a long time on my server I was the Top Druid and later one of the Top Monks. What drove me was the thrill of being one of the top players. This commitment though, to compete at that level required massive amounts of time invested as well as a lot of political involvement. But, alas, I was in love with becoming more powerful as a player. Saddly, CoH has no equipment to strive for. It could be argued that the super powered enhancements that you get from Hamidon would be Striveable worthy, but they just dont peak my interest.
The second was accomplishment. It was exciting to conquer new things. I loved the Planes of Power expansion in Everquest, and I loved stealing my first relic in Dark Age. Nothing got the blood pumping like a massive raid on a keep or downing a God/Dragon for the first time. I guess it could be argued that the Archvillians and Task Force missions are strivable events, although in general they dont take much to get through.
The third reason to getting to level 50 was for Player Hunting/Player Killing etc. While the EQ PK system was flawed, it evolved over time making higher levels worth while. Dark Age of Camelot was centered on the combat aspect, the reason TO get 50 was simply to eliminate the other guy. As a Midguard (and you other mids know (ps Albs suck)) it was *always* a challenge to fight for what was yours. There were also the MUDs, that rivaled any MMORPG in their time. While they were text based, some of the most exciting battles Ive ever been in were through a little telnet connection
The final reason to reach the maximum level was just because its fun to get to the end level. When I play a MMORPG, leveling should just be something that happens while Im doing other things. I dont think any game has quite nipped that yet though, except for the text based MUDs and games that were designed as single player games, with a multiplayer aspect thrown in.
I just recently beat the game Fable after a measly 16 hours of game play, which comes down to $3.15 per hour of game play. Granted Im going to play a second time to try the evil path, but really thats pretty sad. City of Heroes has to me only one reason out of four to get to level 50, and its the same reason I got to level 99 in Diablo, Max Power in Fable and many other games just because its fun to get to the end. That being said, Im missing something currently, thats the fun part. This isnt City of Heroes issue, its solely mine, so please dont take this as a flame.
When I log into CoH its *work*: boring, tedious work. Why does it take so long to level in City of Heroes, I believe the answer is very obvious, its because City of Heroes is a business, and businesses exist to make profit. If City of Heroes was like the game Fable, they would no longer be making a lot of money, their money would come in one big surge. You invest a million dollars, then pray you sell a million copies at $35.00 a piece. With MMORPGs their goal is to make the initial surge of money, then make money over time, as well as micro-surges of cash in the form of expansions once a year or so.
So I guess my philosophical issue is, am I a MMORPG kinda person anymore? I no longer have desires to spend 14 hours of a day camping a zone for an item, I rather prefer to log on for two hours here and there, and then log off. The problem is that MMORPGs in general reward those that are most likely to cause greater profit. CoH isnt really interested in players like me; they prefer the people that are enamored by the game.
And with that long stream of consciousness type discussion, I think Ive come to my answer