[ QUOTE ]
No, actually I just believe that characters like the Hulk are, at worst, too imbalanced to exist in CoH in the first place, and (at best) the pinnacle of extremity when it comes to a Tanker example. And neither of those represents a wise model to base a tanker on in the first place, so I honestly dont understand why people continuously pull him out as an example of how a tanker should be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you an MMORPG veteran? I think maybe this is causing the friction here. I don't want to play a meat shield, and when I conceived my character, and saw that the only AT that got Super Strength was Tankers, I thought of people like Colossus, Rogue (my favorite character), Captain Britain, and The Hulk. No, I don't expect power on their level if everyone else doesn't have it, but the point is that these are people who go after the biggest guy in sight to trade massive blows with them. What I got was someone that was supposed to keep large groups of enemies in check by Provoking them over and over while someone else takes out them, AND the biggest guy in sight.
You know what would make me, and a lot of people asking for "comic book tankers", insanely happy? A Broadsword Scrapper (with knockback instead of a def debuff, or at least the choice) with Super Strength animations, sounds, and power names.
Hardly unbalancing, if you don't already think Broadsword Scrappers are not balanced.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
[ QUOTE ]
You know what would make me, and a lot of people asking for "comic book tankers", insanely happy? A Broadsword Scrapper (with knockback instead of a def debuff, or at least the choice) with Super Strength animations, sounds, and power names.
Hardly unbalancing, if you don't already think Broadsword Scrappers are not balanced.
[/ QUOTE ]
You sir get an A+. 
That is the real problem with Super Strength, it is a Tanker only powerset. I think it is obvious a lot of us want to paly a scrapper to begin with, but character concepts based on Super Strength had to be morphed into the tanker mold.
Is there any real question as to why we are unhappy with the Tanker SS power set? Getting rid of Knockback made the set a whole lot less super. That isn't the powersets fault though, that is a lack of mobile mez resitance in the Primaries problem. The End useage is a Tanker Archetype problem, and I am glad it is being addressed.
The damage issue is a character concept problem. Changing KO Blow does little for the set as a whole. It may bring it more into the realm of the other tanker sets, but in the long run is it really going to make those who wish to make comic book bricks happy? I doubt it. After the initial giddyness fades away, the set is still sub-par for the character concept of a comic book brick.
I don't really see anyway to fix tankers to make those who want a comic book brick happy. Being a tanker will always be about taking damage, being a meatshield. That my friends is not a comic book brick. That is your standard RPG warrior/tanker whatever you want to call it, and that is all it will be.
[ QUOTE ]
Being a tanker will always be about taking damage, being a meatshield. That my friends is not a comic book brick. That is your standard RPG warrior/tanker whatever you want to call it, and that is all it will be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, as much as I love CoH (and I really do love the game), this is one aspect of it that is pretty much "EverQuest with a fresh coat of spandex paint", and that's sad, given how much attention to comic-book detail the Designers and Developers have otherwise given this game.
The thing is though, that the whole idea of being a 'healer' or a 'meat shield' or such is very much an RPG concept and just doesn't fit into the comic book world very well.
Characters in CoH are Superheroes. Superheroes have different powers and abilities, but they all manage to not only group up to face world-threatening challenges, but to also somehow do super things, all by themselves. I can't think of one single comic book Superhero that would actually be a 'support class' (as the concept exists in MMO's).
Just like adapting a book to a movie, there are going to be some things that will simply have to be changed when you try to translate a comic book world into an online game. It's inevitable, and I think for the most part Cryptic has done an amazing job.
I understand the need for having Archetypes (even though I think it's unfortunate, and leads to a lot of the problems that have come up since), but by having specific AT's/power-sets that are designated as 'support' and having Tankers be intended specifically to "take damage" definitely moves the game further away from the comic book worlds it was based on.
I don't know what the answer is, and maybe there isn't one. Maybe, as you said, it will just always be this way ("that is all it will be").
I just know that CoH is a very unique game, and has the potential to be so much more than anything else that's out there.
I really hope it lives up to that potential, and I'd very much like to be around to see it when it does.
Blurg
(Science Tanker)
[i]"City of Heroes is at its best as a Superhero game that's implemented as an MMO, rather than as an MMO that just happens to be about Superheroes..."[/i]
[ QUOTE ]
I ment Balanced as in both AE and Single target powers, not as in under or overpowered. I thought I made that clear in my post.
Anyway, you dodged the question why Whirling Axe, Whirling Hands, Tremor and Whirling Mace should be better then Foot Stomp?
[/ QUOTE ]
Dunno. You're going to have to ask the guys who made the powers.
[ QUOTE ]
No, actually I just believe that characters like the Hulk are, at worst, too imbalanced to exist in CoH in the first place, and (at best) the pinnacle of extremity when it comes to a Tanker example. And neither of those represents a wise model to base a tanker on in the first place, so I honestly dont understand why people continuously pull him out as an example of how a tanker should be.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this statement. A comic book doesn't really have to worry about balancing its characters. A video game does. Too many people tend to forget this.
Then again these types of debate are to be expected due to the genre (they happen in every MMOG but much moreso in this one).
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, actually I just believe that characters like the Hulk are, at worst, too imbalanced to exist in CoH in the first place, and (at best) the pinnacle of extremity when it comes to a Tanker example. And neither of those represents a wise model to base a tanker on in the first place, so I honestly dont understand why people continuously pull him out as an example of how a tanker should be.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this statement. A comic book doesn't really have to worry about balancing its characters. A video game does. Too many people tend to forget this.
Then again these types of debate are to be expected due to the genre (they happen in every MMOG but much moreso in this one).
[/ QUOTE ]
Yet there is nothing wrong with the current Scrapper AT? The way Scrappers are, currently, is how comic book Tankers are, they are only missing the aesthetics. We are missing an entire AT of fast, medium damage melee characters that handle hordes of minions in team situations like Nightcrawler, Captain America, or Batman. Instead we have meatshields for taunting them.
I just think this game would be a lot more fun if the two melee classes were split into Minion killer and Boss killer, instead of Boss Killer and Immobile Taunter.
It's too bad that things have been done as they have been done, because now people want to hold on to what they have. I can't blame them for that, but it is frustrating when all I want is some minor aesthetic thing, and the head guy tells me that he thinks it's "flavorful" for me not to be able to have it. It's just aesthetics!
I agree that games need balance, I annoy the hell out of my friends talking about balance. But while the Hulk may be too powerful for this game, something like him with less power would not be. A Broadsword Scrapper with Super Strength animations, sounds, and names would play JUST like the Hulk, Rogue, or the Thing.
Why must I be forced into the meatshield role to have the aesthetics I want? I'm not asking to be overpowered.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Scrappers are exactly what Scrappers should be at levels 20-30 (as are Tankers really). L20-30 are your best levels in this game balance wise.
Scrappers should be high offense and low defense. Scrappers start losing this concept around L28 (Instant Healing, Invincibility, etc ...) and totally get unbalanced at L38+ (Unstoppable, 6 slotted Tough and Weave, etc ....).
Conversely I think Tankers were planned poorly from a power standpoint. I think every Tanker secondary should have been scaleable single target damage (Stone Fist, Stone Mallet, Greater Stone Mallet being a great example) with a few minor damage AOEs thrown in (i.e. Handclap but with minor damage, or Footstomp with less damage).
Scrappers should have had faster attacks, no single target damage attack should have been better (or equal to) a Tankers and they should have had a plethora of moderate and minor damage AOEs (mostly cones). They should be the kings of DPS (and minion killing, NOT Boss killing), where as Tankers should primarily be slow one shot wonders.
Hasten should be removed from the game entirely. Except for really excessive recharge times, this power makes the recharge component of DPS meaningless.
And everyone needs to stop comparing this game to the Marvel or DC universe heroes. It's like me howling about how my 18th Wizard in EQ isn't like Gandalf. They are silly comparisons (they won't be when Marvel's MMOG comes out but that's going to be their utter mess to deal with).
And of course, as with all things, these are just my personal opinions.
[ QUOTE ]
My 'concept' for my character was a super-strong non-weapon using character that didn't take forever-and-a-day to land a punch. Thankfully, there was a powerset that matched that concept. So, yes, I am just a tad bit interested in keeping it that way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly not trying to be snarky, but it sounds to me like you just described a scrapper.
I posted somewhere that I would not be posting again. However, Statesman's announcement about fixing the Tanker has given me hope. Should he and the Devs pull it through, then I will come here and make a public apology for doubting. For now it's wait and see.
My take on the Tanker problem isn't one of not doing enough damage. Or rather, not how I see most people stating it.
The way I see the problem with the Tank's damage, and Super Strength in particular, is that it does not scale. The "feel" of Super Strength is different at level 2 than it is at even level 10. For the most part my Tank has gotten weaker. Yes, if you compare my Tank to those level 2 minions I was fighting before, then I'm more powerful. But... if you compare my level 10 tank to a level 10 minion, then I'm weaker.
I have not leveled a tank beyond 22, but from what I've seen in countless threads, it remains a problem of scaling even into the higher levels. I know some of the attack sets, like Energy, get a great attack combo later on. I also know that Knockout Blow has gotten a huge boost. To me that is kinda like throwing the Tank community a bone saying "Ok, here you go. One attack that is great. You still don't get any choice scraps from the table, now git!"
All I would really like to see is the scaling factor fixed. Make me as "powerful" at level 14 as I was at level 2.
(note: I am not including the defenses of a Tank her as this thread is not about that.)
I agree with Ravenwood. It is pretty much the same problem with War Mace. As you level your attacks don't get a whole lot better so you feel a bit weaker. We don't "scale" with the mobs. Our attacks remain the same just a little more damage to keep up with the villains hit points.
[ QUOTE ]
Scrappers should have had faster attacks, no single target damage attack should have been better (or equal to) a Tankers and they should have had a plethora of moderate and minor damage AOEs (mostly cones). They should be the kings of DPS (and minion killing, NOT Boss killing), where as Tankers should primarily be slow one shot wonders.
[/ QUOTE ]
If one thing destroys this game it is the AOE on too many places. I have fought groups with teammates that have no AOE and the game feels way more challinging but with fair dificulty, that way.
All i would have given all scrappers would had been at least one cone attack with a decent radius.
Now, that is your opinion, this is mine:
Tankers attacks should hit for high amounts of damage, but with long animations to make them somewhat slower. Slow attack should mean easy to evade, so they have lower accuracy.
Tankers defense should all be about mitigation, never evasion, but having a very high cap (like they do really).
Scrappers attacks should hit for little but be very fast, with quick animations and little above avarage accuracy.
Scrapper defense should all be based on evasion, never mitigation. They should have a moderate evasion cap, but extremely low mitigation cap.
The idea is that the scrapper can dodge most of a tankers attack, since he has high evasion and the tanker below good accuracy, but one or 2 hits from the tank may finish off the scrapper. This is the typical Wolverine vs Hulk fight, hulk will almost never hit Wolverine, but if he manages to he just needs a few hits to leave him unconcious.
Comparing, if no one ever missed, the tanker should do more damage per minute, but truth being the tanker will always have lower accuracy and miss much more, the scrapper would do more damage.
I'd give tankers hits a 70% or 68% accuracy, while scrappers would have an 80% or 82% accuracy.
As for blasters, i'd give them moderately fast attacks with moderate damage, their AOE would be very low damage, maybe between their weaker and second weaker attacks. Their accuracy would be as is, but their overal dps should be just a little above the scrappers, but with the added powers to ocationaly use high cost aoe that hit much at once (for low-moderate damage) and use one mega attack that makes them kind of charge energy and release it on a ultra nuke (single target) that forms a normal moderate aoe damage aroudn the target and drains 75 endurance. This is what you actualy normaly see on a comic book, if a blaster type decides to destroy a building they take a time to charge up and then end on their knees to catch a breath.
I totally agree with Lungorthar, we may not be able to hit you very often but when we do it hurts. While not all tankers are big lumbering beasts they aren't the quickest people ever. Superman was fast but he got hit a lot, but when he hits you, you go flying. I should miss evens a lot but when I hit an even he should be on the ground or should almost be on the ground.
I kind of agree with Lungorthar, but I'd leave Tankers at 75% and raise Scrappers to 85 or 90% base accuracy. Players hate missing more often than that.
Also, playing a 'tough Scrapper' or an 'evasive Tanker' should be an option, but a Scrapper should never be able to reach the same Resistance or Magnitude caps as a Tanker, just as a Tanker should not outdamage a Scrapper in both damage per hit or Damage per Second (one or the other maybe, but not both).
I think the hard cap on effective Resistances should be raised to 95% for Tankers. To balance this, give Scrappers a 5% break on Recharge delays.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Lungorthar:
[ QUOTE ]
I'd give tankers hits a 70% or 68% accuracy, while scrappers would have an 80% or 82% accuracy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except Geko has commented before that using accuracy negatively as a balance tool between the archetypes is a direction he doesnt want to go, citing how often players cry their accuracy has been nerfed every other week as it is. I agree with that, as whiffing through several shots just to land one big one would quickly become very frustrating to me. Id much rather be getting the constant feedback of contact that equaled out to the same damage over time.
Foo007:
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly not trying to be snarky, but it sounds to me like you just described a scrapper.
[/ QUOTE ]
Only because I didnt insert the fact that I also wanted to be invulnerable, as we werent discussing the primary power pools. Also, super-strength isnt a Scrapper option, and at the moment martial-arts is mostly kicking.
Liquid:
[ QUOTE ]
Are you an MMORPG veteran? I think maybe this is causing the friction here. I don't want to play a meat shield, and when I conceived my character, and saw that the only AT that got Super Strength was Tankers, I thought of people like Colossus, Rogue (my favorite character), Captain Britain, and The Hulk.
[/ QUOTE ]
The friction is simply caused by a difference in perspective. Save for the Hulk, I find super-strength to be a match every one of those characters you mentioned. Colossus, Rogue, and Captain Britain did not come across as overly slow to me. You believe a Tanker needs to be able to one shot minions at the cost of speed, despite the fact that minions in this game are low-end superpowered individuals and not your everyday street thug.
And to be honest, the Hulk seems more like a Scrapper to me who happens to be tough. The madder he gets, the stronger he gets, isnt that how it goes? Not the madder he gets, the more invulnerable he gets. Ive seen the Hulk get hurt plenty of times, Ive never seen a limit to his strength though. He is primarily damage dealing, toughness secondary. Sounds Scrapperish to me. I think Wolverine even coined him as one, once.
I hate to say this, but damage dealing is not the domain of the Tanker archtype. They are a medium damage class. Scrappers and Blasters are high damage classes. It clearly states this right at character creation so there are no surprises.
Now, you can fake it. You can make a S.S. Tanker so slow that his attacks are one shotting villains while still maintaining the current medium range DPS that we have, but does that really improve super-strength in any way? No, not at all. It just appeases your idea of what super-strength should be while moving it away from my idea of how it should be. And heaven forbid you should miss three times in a row against a minion while swinging at snail-speed, how ridiculous and dull that would be. Yay, a K.O. on the fourth swing, I missed it after dozing off from the boring lack of feedback. Thats also assuming the minion youre fighting is even still sticking around for the fourth swing in the first place, and hasnt run off to someone actually outputting damage since our punches with their built in artificial taunts seem to be taking forever to land.
On that topic, that's one of the things I really like about super-strengths speed. I dont use provoke/taunt because I dont feel the concept fits my character, but I can keep a crowd of minions around me by cycling through them with one punch each and reminding them that Im still there. I can only do that because super-strength has moderate speed attacks. If it were slower, most of them would lose interest in me and run off to other members of my team. Im not concerned so much about the damage Im doing, but rather about being the center of an angry mobs attention while my team mops up. Doing that, I feel like the team is playing its strengths. Seriously, if high damage and one-shotting minions is your thing, you should have played a Scrapper or a Blaster.
I think the most amusing thing about this conversation is that anytime I complained super-strengths damage sucked (which I used to do a lot until I found it out it was on par with Defenders), Id get a sea of Tankers led by Havok telling me dealing damage isnt the Tankers job, its to take it. Now I have Tankers telling me theyre more concerned about dealing damage than being a meatshield. I guess my idea of a good Tanker must be somewhere in the middle because I disagree with both philosophies. But thankfully the game lets you swing your Tankers both ways through the use of enhancements. It wont, however, if the base model is pushed too far to one side to begin with. And that would be bad design.
Simplifying my opinions for the record:
-Equal DPS amongst the tankers if it doesnt exist already: Good idea.
-Slowing down what are already only moderately paced super-strength attacks: Bad idea.
-Stripping powers of their alternate effects to trade in for more damage: Bad idea.
-Fixing the AoE problem sometime in the next 5 minutes: Good idea.
-Ditching the concept that immobilizing your character to make use of a power is even remotely fun: Good idea.
-Giving the players a /knockback powername 0/1 toggle to satisfy knockback/knockdown lovers instead of the unfair nerf we got stuck with: Good idea.
Okay, after playing on the Test server for a week or so with the new SS changes, I went back to live and played my tanker for a while. This led me to the following conclusions:
Knockback sucks on a melee character's primary attacks. I could care less about DPS, having to chase a boss around the map or waiting for a group of enemies to come back for another Foot Stomp just isn't fun. I'd honestly rather they all stay there and punch me in the face...at least that way I can punch them too. Knockdown accomplishes everything defensively that knockback can except for physically moving enemies around.
I'd recommend leaving Handclap and Hurl with knockback, as they aren't really primary attacks and are more useful as utility or emergency powers.
With an extreme damage attack in the form of Knockout Blow, I would say that SS is fine damage-wise. Our slow, weak-hitting attack is now a slow, hard-hitting one, and whether we like the downside or not, Rage is a nice power and something no other powerset has.
If the changes currently on the Training Room go live as is, I'd call Super Strength fixed.
My nipple itches.
I skipped over Knockout blow, because I thought i read it as little real dmg being done. Opted for handclap for the same effect but for more people, but I might have to pickup KO now if it is changed.
[ QUOTE ]
I kind of agree with Lungorthar, but I'd leave Tankers at 75% and raise Scrappers to 85 or 90% base accuracy. Players hate missing more often than that.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is an idea i have been toying around but never mentioned: what if for every miss you get on single target attacks, you get a buff, this buff stacks with itself and if you miss 10 times in a row you can have it 10 times. Once you manage to hit, it will add an extra 40% damage to that hit. With something like this you may even drop further the accuracy and some people may like missing, so that they get to hit harder once they do. The buff may last only one hit, it runs out exactly after the one hit is delivered. Then you must acumulate rage again.
Another option would be to have a buildup like toggle, this toggle lowers your accuracy but increases your damage by very little, maybe 5%. Every time you miss it goes up another 5%. The effect of a miss can last up to 3 minutes within the buff.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, playing a 'tough Scrapper' or an 'evasive Tanker' should be an option
[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think i seen manyh comic book tanks that relly purely on evasion, truth is the definition of a tank itself on comics is a guy that will get hit and keep going.
I do think scrappers can get some mitigation and the same way for tanker with some evasion, but i'd keep tanker evasion buf under 40% max and 20% max for scrapper mitigation.
Note i know and realize that accuracy will not be used for balance, i posted this here more as a in-game view of how a comic book tanker and scrapper should had been. Right now that would mean too much to change.
I personaly would never change the animations lenghts on any of the tanker sets, they feel very good now, all we need are better numbers.
As for KO blow, i just got my tanker to 22 and decided to go to test and try out this power, it was amazing. I think i will be taking it. The refresh is somewhat slow but it is ok.
[ QUOTE ]
The friction is simply caused by a difference in perspective. Save for the Hulk, I find super-strength to be a match every one of those characters you mentioned. Colossus, Rogue, and Captain Britain did not come across as overly slow to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Hulk isn't slow either. I'm willing to sacrifice speed to actually feel strong, it's a balance concession I'm willing to make.
[ QUOTE ]
You believe a Tanker needs to be able to one shot minions at the cost of speed, despite the fact that minions in this game are low-end superpowered individuals and not your everyday street thug.
[/ QUOTE ]
I want SOMETHING to feel strong against. Taking 4-5 hits to kill the weakest things I fight, when I'm supposedly really pissed off, isn't fun. That's all I ask. I have one attack now that does this, THAT attack is slow, and the others are fast, so it seems like maybe we got a decent compromise between what you and I want out of the set, offensively.
[ QUOTE ]
And to be honest, the Hulk seems more like a Scrapper to me who happens to be tough. The madder he gets, the stronger he gets, isnt that how it goes? Not the madder he gets, the more invulnerable he gets. Ive seen the Hulk get hurt plenty of times, Ive never seen a limit to his strength though. He is primarily damage dealing, toughness secondary. Sounds Scrapperish to me. I think Wolverine even coined him as one, once.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, whatever. Super Strength isn't a Scrapper set, so in CoH he'd have to be a Tanker, whether his offense outshines his defense or not.
On that topic, I'd say Spiderman, Nightcrawler, and Daredevil all have defenses that outshine their offenses. Should they be Tankers?
I think the offense/defense thing was a bad line to draw for Scrappers vs Tankers. I think it should have been speed/damage, because that's how it looks in the source material. They should have let offense/defense be based on enhancement slots and power choices.
[ QUOTE ]
I hate to say this, but damage dealing is not the domain of the Tanker archtype. They are a medium damage class. Scrappers and Blasters are high damage classes. It clearly states this right at character creation so there are no surprises.
[/ QUOTE ]
The manual also says that Tankers have a "powerful, but not exceptionally quick offensive punch". Should I make sarcastic remarks about how you picked the wrong AT, now that we are getting our set to fit that description?
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, if high damage and one-shotting minions is your thing, you should have played a Scrapper or a Blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wanted to play someone with Super Strength. I was given one, and only one option, Scrapper ain't it, and I don't feel super.
You are still being pretty patronizing. It really isn't helping.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
[ QUOTE ]
And everyone needs to stop comparing this game to the Marvel or DC universe heroes. It's like me howling about how my 18th Wizard in EQ isn't like Gandalf. They are silly comparisons (they won't be when Marvel's MMOG comes out but that's going to be their utter mess to deal with).
[/ QUOTE ]
Your level 18 wizard in EQ is like Gandalf. You are confusing (in my case at least) requests for playstyles with requests for power.
I agree with your sentiments about Scrappers being fast and tankers being slow, and personally, I think Hasten should be balanced with Combat Jumping and Hover. Make it a toggle, give it a training or DO recharge time effect, a 5% defense bonus and a small movement speed boost.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, actually I just believe that characters like the Hulk are, at worst, too imbalanced to exist in CoH in the first place, and (at best) the pinnacle of extremity when it comes to a Tanker example. And neither of those represents a wise model to base a tanker on in the first place, so I honestly dont understand why people continuously pull him out as an example of how a tanker should be.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this statement. A comic book doesn't really have to worry about balancing its characters. A video game does. Too many people tend to forget this.
Then again these types of debate are to be expected due to the genre (they happen in every MMOG but much moreso in this one).
[/ QUOTE ]
If MMOG and comic book genre can't co-mingle than they never should have made an MMOG set in the comic book genre. 
That's an overreactive statement that jumps to the most extreme conclusion, but then so do these arguments at time, and that's the real problem. The answers are never at the extremes of an argument.
No, the Hulk is not a balanceable character, but wanting to play a character that makes you remotely feel like the Hulk in a comic book-based game that lets you create your own character is not an unreasonable request, as long as you are willing to compromise to achieve game balance. Most are.
If I could play a regen scrapper with the broadsword set that replaced all the animation and FX with super strength-like punches, well, I'd be there. I'd have my Hulk, and I'd be happy.
And for those who say I'd be fine with this because scrappers tank so well later on, I say nerf em for all I care. I just want to hit hard. (note, I am not advocating nerfing scrappers, just trying to make a point)
I'm thrilled they have improvements planned for Tankers, as a Tanker in their prime is a beautiful thing, and the AT has a lot of potential. But it's time to stop shooting people's reasonable requests down due to extremist arguments and reasoning. You play a comic book game to live out your comic book fantasies, so it's not unreasonable for people to want that. Rather than saying it can never happen, why not discuss reasonable, balanceable ways that it can happen. Often the core of what they want is very simple to achieve, but you won't find that core by not discussing it.
Now, very few players want a comic book tank more than me. But don't you think we should give Statesman a chance to show us his "hulk-like" power? Knockout blow was such a major addition for me I've been stunned into relative silence.
Since Statesman said no to the SS/Inv scrapper, we really can't talk about that right now. Have to deal with what they WILL give us. Hey, they could still do the job right. It's much better late than never...
[ QUOTE ]
On that topic, I'd say Spiderman, Nightcrawler, and Daredevil all have defenses that outshine their offenses. Should they be Tankers?
[/ QUOTE ]
These characters are about evasion, not mitigation, a style of defense thats available in the Scrapper pool. Its also available in the form of ice armor, but I think we can agree the concept behind evasion there is different and not something youd assing to any of these characters.
[ QUOTE ]
The manual also says that Tankers have a "powerful, but not exceptionally quick offensive punch". Should I make sarcastic remarks about how you picked the wrong AT, now that we are getting our set to fit that description?
[/ QUOTE ]
I really dont consider most of the super-strength Tankers attacks exceptionally quick, except for jab (a type of attack that has always been defined as a quick strike). Punch takes almost six seconds to cycle. Six seconds is a long time to be waiting on a punch. Punch at the air a moment once every six seconds.. its pretty slow.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm willing to sacrifice speed to actually feel strong, it's a balance concession I'm willing to make.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want SOMETHING to feel strong against. Taking 4-5 hits to kill the weakest things I fight, when I'm supposedly really pissed off, isn't fun. That's all I ask.
[/ QUOTE ]
Regarding your desire to be able to one-shot minions, can any archetype repeatedly take down a minion in a single hit unassisted? I know it can be done with sniper shots, and by some powers at the end of certain powersets, but these are all attacks that also have very heavy restrictions tied to their usage. They cant be used repeatedly from one minion to the next.
So, it sounds like youre asking for a level of power tied to a frequency that just isnt practical, as anything faster would be unbalanced compared to like-damage powers. The new Knockout Blow supposedly lets you one shot minions. However, it has an abysmally slow recharge time of 25 seconds, and costs over a quarter of your endurance pool to use. Now, thats fine. Knockout Blow is meant to be a situational power, not a bread and butter attack.
That sounds like an impressive attack that would make you feel powerful, but I see a very hefty price attached to it. If we conclude this is the cost of a power that allows you to one shot minions, where would we be if more of super-strengths attacks worked that way? Slap those same attributes on punch and haymaker and combine them with knockout blow for an opening triple-move-attack. After almost 7 seconds, three minions are dead, youve spent 80% of your endurance pool, and you have 18 seconds to go before the first of those attacks comes back on online. Of course, that's assuming you don't miss. That would be a heck of a whiffle, and 18 seconds is a long time, sit there for a few and count it out. Itll feel a lot longer than that when youre waiting on it in a pinch, too. I know Ive certainly had plenty of three-swing missing streaks. Thats a serious amount of eggs all in one basket, but that's a huge con of slow attacks.
Still, not too bad if youre soloing. You could probably go from encounter to encounter like that since its usually 3 to 5 minions in a cluster. Where does it leave you when youre in a large team, though? I think youd be doing a lot of standing around while your team takes care of everything beyond the first three villains you defeated. Its be pretty hard for you to hold agro during those 18 second gaps of downtime without provoke or taunt, which means theyd probably become a must for every tanker. I know Im not fond of that idea.
Of course, All-Tanker-Teams would probably be really popular, as every Tanker in your group could kill three minions in around seven seconds. A team of eight Tankers could take down twenty-four minions in seven seconds. That might be considered a balance problem.
See, Im trying to look beyond This would make me feel powerful, therefore its the right way to go and consider the idea all the way through to its conclusion. And what I see at the end makes me say Hey, you know what.. that, uh.. kinda blows after you stop to think about it. Thats what makes me feel really strongly about tankers not going in this direction. Beyond everything I just mentioned, in addition that kind of fighting style would get really boring and repetitive, fast (at least to me).
[ QUOTE ]
You are still being pretty patronizing. It really isn't helping.
[/ QUOTE ]
You seem to be taking this personally. I really dont have any delusions that Im going to convince that your ideas are wrong just because I think they are, nor is that my goal. You are more than welcome to your opinion on how Tankers should be, and free to try and convince the developers to change them to your vision. Just dont get frustrated if I or someone else looks at what youre saying, decides its a direction we dont want the archetype to go in, and then comments as such so that the developers hear counter opinions as well.
I think Ive shown plenty of real reasons why slower, heavy hitting attacks would be detrimental to a super-strength tanker. I havent heard any reasons why it would be a positive move beyond that it will make some of you feel more powerful, more like a comic book hero. Well, I really dont believe thats a good enough reason to justify the negative aspects of this idea. I'm not saying that there's no room for comic-book qualities in this game (that would be silly considering its genre), but it is an online massively multiplayer game, and balance and design have to be taken into account.
[ QUOTE ]
Simplifying my opinions for the record:
.
-Equal DPS amongst the tankers if it doesnt exist already: Good idea.
.
-Slowing down what are already only moderately paced super-strength attacks: Bad idea.
.
-Stripping powers of their alternate effects to trade in for more damage: Bad idea.
.
-Fixing the AoE problem sometime in the next 5 minutes: Good idea.
.
-Ditching the concept that immobilizing your character to make use of a power is even remotely fun: Good idea.
.
-Giving the players a /knockback powername 0/1 toggle to satisfy knockback/knockdown lovers instead of the unfair nerf we got stuck with: Good idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
Odd. I agree with all that yet I can read your posts and disagree with almost everything you say. I'm not suggesting either of us is being disingenuous just that we both want the same think through different routes.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Skulls don't take Dyne. The Warriors just train in ancient weaponry. And don't tell me that Crey scientists are super-humanly tough.
[/ QUOTE ]
Er, Skulls are all over Dyne. Did you miss that whole plotline the first 14 levels of the game?
[/ QUOTE ]
No. I'm pretty sure that plotline said that they sell Dyne, they don't use it or they would be Trolls.
[ QUOTE ]
And do you honestly think Crey scientists are the Warriors are powerful enough to be level 30+ and 20+ villains respectively and somehow not be considered superhumanly powerful?
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess I don't equate level with superhumanity. Especially since the Natural origin exists.
But whatever. I don't care what the reasoning is. I just want something I encounter fairly frequently in missions to knock out in one hit. It's fun, and it makes me feel superhuman, I don't care if it's an Underling and worth insignificant or no XP, but I don't want to have to go to Atlas every 5 minutes and kill-steal some newbie just to feel strong. The thing is, the only underlings I see with any frequency are DE swarms, and they have smashing resistance and slow effects, so it actually takes me LONGER to kill them than minions!
[ QUOTE ]
I find it very odd that you would say that, as I have watched you push in the past to have knockback removed from all Tanker attacks
[/ QUOTE ]
I seem to remember responding to a quote by you that requested at least leaving knockback in haymaker, and saying "I agree here, at least leave this, but make it 100% knockback". You know what I'd love? A kick that knocked people across the room on the level of Power Thrust. I don't care if it did 0 damage, that would be fun as hell, and useful.
[ QUOTE ]
when discussing ways to increase Tanker damage. Not Tankers avoiding irritating their group members because it fouls up their lame AOE playstyle, but simply to improve Tanker damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoa. I never advocated removing knockback to increase DPS. Ever. I have never used that reasoning. Krunch uses that. I could care less about DPS. I care about Damage per Hit. I want to be able to knock out a minion in one hit. I just got that, so I'm pretty ok with that whole situation.
I've only supported knockdown because I'm sick and tired of having people [censored] about me knocking things out of their AoEs. My own roommate, who I've been friends with for 7 years, doesn't want me using Hand Clap, my FAVORITE power. So, unless I want to abandon him in the game, I don't even have the option of finding a more understanding group.
[ QUOTE ]
Thats strange, I cant seem to find the thread started by Tankers titled Make us a useful archetype again: fix the AoE debacle. It must be here somewhere.
Are you sure you know exactly what everyone wants?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not everyone, I'm sorry for suggesting that. There is a good sized group of Tankers that don't know what they want, and cheer more damage in any capacity. By "we", I meant everyone who agreed with me, which means I probably should have just said "I". I just wanted more damage per hit, though I am probably done asking for that after the Knockout Blow change, even though the other sets are still far ahead of us, with more attacks like that.
Can we tone down the sarcasm a bit? I realize I've been that way to you as well, and I just don't really think it's being helpful either way. I know you are frustrated, and so am I, but we might get somewhere if we aren't so abrasive about it. Heck, maybe we can get Krunch to use his pull, or whatever, to start a sort of side-campaign to solve the real problems in this game while he is also campaigning for the band-aid fixes.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)