Regarding recent changes
By
AbuliaDon,
Posted on: 2004-05-13 19:13 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
First of all, Child of Sin hit the nail on the head. What are the negative effects of leaving things alone? I heard no complaints before all the nerfs started, but they've sure popped up in force since then. Ok, a power set makes it easy to solo, so what? The people who want to power level & solo will take that & have fun. The people who don't want to will pick whatever suits their tastes & have fun. I just don't see the point. It's not like it's enabling people to destroy the gaming experience for other players.
More to the point, I think I'm done. I know nobody cares, but please read on because I feel the reasoning behind me leaving this game is important. I looked forward to this game with great anticipation. I reserved my copy in advance & was sitting at my computer watching the count-down clock on release night. I have spent many days playing 5 or more (sometimes up to 10) hours just sitting at my computer playing... and I've had fun. Lots of fun. But it's not THAT fun. The goal of having stats in a game (like an RPG) is so that you can make your character more powerful. That's the way the game works. In some games your skills get better, your reflexes & ability with the controls improves, & that's what makes you better. In an RPG-esque game your stats are what make you better. Your reflexes don't allow you to deal more damage or avoid taking more damage, your stats do. In that same vein, the goal of selecting your character's powers & what areas to specialize in is to build the most effective character possible. I feel that I can strategize around any situation. I can build a character that will accel in any given area I decide to target it for: lockdown, DPS, healing, etc., and I can build a character that will be able to handle any kind of enemy under the appropriate circumstances (level balance, group size/composition, etc.), but there is one enemy I can't beat: god. The devs are the gods of this game, & there is nothing I, or anyone else, can do to beat them. I can spend dozens, even hundreds, of hours building a new character to be effective under the new patch rules, but why should I? The instant I get them up to a respectable level where they truly start to become effective some modification will be put into place that will make it worthless again. My last character was a Fire/Devices Blaster, & before that an Ice/Axe Tanker. My latest one was a Fire/Storm Controller. With the nerf on slows my secondary set has already become worthless, & at this point I see no reason to continue on to reach Fire Imps, because by the time I get to L32 they'll have been nerfed as well. Considering the newly added decrease to XP rewards & the fact that it's made grouping almost pointless, it'll take even longer. So I sadly say "I'm done" to this game. Not because I'm angry at the idea of trying to "balance" the game, although I don't see why the supposedly "unbalanced" issues from before were a problem, but because I'm bitter that I've spent my money (& more importantly my time) on a game which should still be in beta testing. I will not waste one more dollar of my money, or one more hour of my time, on a game which will force me to try to fight "god" to be an effective fighter. I may come back once the game settles into a state where I don't have to be unsure of what I'll log into every single day.
To the Devs: I thank you for trying to put out such a unique game which has brought enjoyment to many, but I will not give you another dollar to let me play-test a game for you. You remind me of a mother afraid to let her child go to college. It's time to cut the apron strings & start using our hard-earned money to put in new content, not frustrate us with a game of leveling cat & mouse. Good day.
To Geko: Thankyou for being so involved with the gamers & listening to what we have to say. I would ask you to take what I (& many others) have said here to heart & try to enlighten your colleagues to the fact that they are killing this game before it escapes infancy. And why? So the AI won't be cheated out of a few kills? Thankyou again.
To the gamers: I encourage you all to consider the truth of what's going on here. This game was released too early. You pay a monthly fee to play because server upkeep costs money & (primarily) to receive new content to keep this game new & fresh. What new content have you received? How many of you cared enough about the state of the game before all the patches? How many of you have been frustrated since? If you're enjoyment level has gone down as time has passed, or even if it has stayed the same (rather than increasing) then you are not getting what you are supposed to be paying for. Thinking on that a while.
To everyone: Good Hunting.
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To the Devs: I thank you for trying to put out such a unique game which has brought enjoyment to many, but I will not give you another dollar to let me play-test a game for you. You remind me of a mother afraid to let her child go to college. It's time to cut the apron strings & start using our hard-earned money to put in new content, not frustrate us with a game of leveling cat & mouse. Good day.
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This is about as myopic a statement as I have seen on these forums. For some reason people seem to labor under the belief that any game that is released will be "complete". The whole purpose of MMPGs is that they are ever evolving and ever changing persistant worlds. The notion that the game shouldn't change, or that devs will never make a mistake, or that players will never find a way to abuse the game world rules is laughable. Everything has flaws, ever system has loop holes. The dev's try to fix them where they can for our enrichment. To maintain a healthy game both nerfs and buffs are necessary to some extent. Why people believe otherwise is a mystery to me.
-Senturion
way to screw up devs. now not only can I barely hit anything, any groups I get now suck for xp since we can only take something a couple levels above us at most. Xp sucks, you really blew it.
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To the Devs: I thank you for trying to put out such a unique game which has brought enjoyment to many, but I will not give you another dollar to let me play-test a game for you. You remind me of a mother afraid to let her child go to college. It's time to cut the apron strings & start using our hard-earned money to put in new content, not frustrate us with a game of leveling cat & mouse. Good day.
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This is about as myopic a statement as I have seen on these forums. For some reason people seem to labor under the belief that any game that is released will be "complete". The whole purpose of MMPGs is that they are ever evolving and ever changing persistant worlds. The notion that the game shouldn't change, or that devs will never make a mistake, or that players will never find a way to abuse the game world rules is laughable. Everything has flaws, ever system has loop holes. The dev's try to fix them where they can for our enrichment. To maintain a healthy game both nerfs and buffs are necessary to some extent. Why people believe otherwise is a mystery to me.
-Senturion
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The game can be ever-changing without altering old things. That's what the concept of adding new content implies. And as someone so poignantly pointed out, what does it hurt if a few players find a way to "abuse" (which I think is a subjective term) a certain ability? Who is hurt by that? Not a single soul.
(Crosspost from General)
Level 15 En/En Blaster here, casual player. Got on tonight and grouped.
I hate this patch with every fiber of my being.
Everyone's said it already but I'll repeat. Joined an 18, another 15, and a 13 sidekicked to 17. The other 15 was a Storm Defender. Door clockwork mission where everyone in the mission was 18. Bosses and Lts were HIGHLY COMMON; minions very rare.
We made it through with a couple of casulties but for the most part without too much problem...for the other players. The 18 Scrapper did just fine. He was a defensive machine. The SK 17 Blaster did great too. The 15 Defender used Hurricane constantly; apparently that power doesn't need to "hit" to work because she had no problems.
I, on the other hand, with two Acc slots in my attack powers, was nigh useless. My hit rate was, at best 25%. Using Aim gave me one or two shots that hit maybe 50% of the time. The only time I was useful was when someone killed the Princes' and I got to mop up the level 16 gears. 
It was a frustrating evening for me. I made some good XP and worked off my debt from dying but not because I was an effecitve member: *I was a leech the entire night.* I don't feel good about leeching and worse of all, grouping was just a frustrating experience of Miss, Miss, Miss....
I don't mind a challenge or tough bosses but being relegated to being inept isn't fun.
I play CoH to have fun. 
Really hate this latest patch, it's much harder to be effective in a large group when I'm as much as 2 levels below the highest player, because I can rarely hit the targets we attack, and when I do, my sniper shot does around 24 damage, if that! That's crazy. That was a minion merely 4 levels above my level. I don't expect to do full damage, or have a 100% hit rate, but I do expect that I would still be able to fight them and put up SOME kind of fight!
I am another who hates this patch.
I play 2 tanks lvl16, 1 Defender lvl19 and a blaster lvl12, I have been swapping chars for a while now and have been really enjoying myself with this game (in my opinion worth every penny of the monthly fee)
However, in the space of 24 hours the developers have managed to destroy my gaming expirience, given excessive debt to all my chars and generally pissed me and my gaming friends off.
Last night I watched with my defender while a lvl19 scrapper, 20 tank and 3 balsters tried to kill 1 lvl25 outcast - the battle was a standoff, I stood there for 15 mins until the team got pissed off and ALL logged out.
Please fix this patch ASAP or you will loose countless players for both COH and the new COV before its release date.
Once again, this patch is [censored]
Jimmy_The_Saint
Speaking as a level 16 gravity controller, I have to say I didn't see an enormous amount of difference last night after the patch even while grouping in Boomtown with my SG. It was already pretty difficult for us teen-level controller types to hold mobs too far in advance of us and the magnitude system makes it difficult for us to hold bosses anyway, but I was holding red lieutenants with about the same effectiveness as usual. Maybe y'all're just coming to live in our world now. 
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Speaking as a level 16 gravity controller, I have to say I didn't see an enormous amount of difference last night after the patch even while grouping in Boomtown with my SG. It was already pretty difficult for us teen-level controller types to hold mobs too far in advance of us and the magnitude system makes it difficult for us to hold bosses anyway, but I was holding red lieutenants with about the same effectiveness as usual. Maybe y'all're just coming to live in our world now.
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That is pretty much what happened, as far as I can tell. Everyone is now fighting where they should be (to a degree) and they are unhappy with being "gimped" down to fighting like controllers/defenders.
Many great posts here. Lots of good solid reasoning.
Gecko,
here are the main three problems with your constant nerfs and changes:
1) it is IMPOSSIBLE to plan and develop a character
2) it is NOT popular with the majority of your customers
3) see #1 and #2
I have had the day off today and havent logged in once. Two patches ago, I would have been on for about 4-5 hours.
Get my drift?
Regards,
Captain Beyond
Basically groups are should now be similar to the ffxi groups which were 1-2 lvls apart. Also with this patch it just slowed down exp so it could maybe make people stay in the game longer because now it will take longer to lvl, thus increasing the longevity of the game maybe.
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Many great posts here. Lots of good solid reasoning.
Gecko,
here are the main three problems with your constant nerfs and changes:
1) it is IMPOSSIBLE to plan and develop a character
2) it is NOT popular with the majority of your customers
3) see #1 and #2
I have had the day off today and havent logged in once. Two patches ago, I would have been on for about 4-5 hours.
Get my drift?
Regards,
Captain Beyond
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As for your number 1, the game hasn't been live a whole month yet (has it?) so you can't expect to have character plans be set in stone. As dev's have said, the game changes aren't meant to piss you off on purpose as so many board users seem to think, they are patching to balance and make the game as it was originally thought to have been, so no uber power leveling.
So things that discourage grouping and decrease the fun element are good ideas?
As far as "the game has been out a whole month" thing; when changes are made that drastically effect a heroe's powers, it is a bad idea.....irregardless.
In beta the devs really gave ya the feeling they cared and listened, now they seem to be kinda leanin more towards the "SoE kinda way" of doing things.
Regards,
Captain Beyond
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Basically groups are should now be similar to the ffxi groups which were 1-2 lvls apart. Also with this patch it just slowed down exp so it could maybe make people stay in the game longer because now it will take longer to lvl, thus increasing the longevity of the game maybe.
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BTW....this is what I meant by "SoE kinda way".
Flawed thinking at best.
If the intention of this latch patch was to slow down powergamers then yippee....it worked.
For the other 90% of us who love grouping and cant live in front of a computer, it was not good.
Regards,
Captain Beyond
Well its like this, I am a casual gamer and I have played EQ for aprox 4 1/2 years, they change things over and over. If this is going to become a norm for this game let me know now please, I would like to get to a high level one day. I mean I went from being able to solo mobs 2-3 levels above me and maybe 2 others my level, like a boss and 2 minions or a lt and 2 minions, I log after this latest patch and I cant hit anything even things my level I miss them 2 outta three shots and this is with a PBAoE power, I mean come on. I understand the need for balance but alot of people that play are looking to see their exp bar move sometime this month, they want to see the end game and kill big mobs like super heroes do. I never seen super heroes like these that get taken out by one guy that is 2 levels above them. I mean its like eq and the warrior, I have never seen a warrior that couldnt hold his own 1 on 1 but in eq after level 30 your dead if you dont have a healer. That seems to be where this whole "Balance" thing is headed, if I am not going to be able to solo their is no point in playing because I play late at night and there usually isnt nobody or not many on at that time. Killing mobs the same level as me or below I would possibly see end game when CoH 2 comes out.
*shrug*
Noone says you have to be level 40 to enjoy the game. It makes NO sense to PL in a PvE game such as this... especially since there isnt really a whole lot of high level content.
EQ? Sure, there are dragons and such to kill
DAOC? RvR makes level 50 mandatory
CoH? *shrug* Playing the game is fun at all levels.
It reminds me of old D&D campaigns... I LOVED levels 3-7, they were the most fun. Over that, sure you get to fight big mobs, but its was much less of a challenge.
As for being "Impossible" to plan a character?
*Shrug* still following my original template for my KA/SR Scrapper. I knew nothing about the game when I started and I just made a couple decisions as to what I wanted.
Are there some abilities that have been tweaked (e.g. Parry)? Sure
Are there some abilities that I didnt know were really good (e.g. Build Up)? Sure
Is my toon still a blast to play? Absolutely
Again, just enjoy the game. You dont have to hit 40 to have fun. You dont have to exploit spec to have fun.
W
I am another gamer that definatly doesn't like the latest changes. Last night and today I played my Gravity/Kinetics Controller and must say most of the fun has gone out of this charactor for me. ALL of my powers require me to hit a target to work. I spent every influence point I had to buy 6 Accuracy enhancements and people were still dieing too often in my group because I was regularly missing targets with my heals and buffs.
It seems to me that all other healers that I can think of do not have to hit an enemy to heal thier group so kinetics was the only group effected in this way. Was it really nessesary to nerf a heal that missed regularly even before the patch? I use 80% of my slots for Accuracy enhancements just to not feel usless in groups.
Most types of powers have passive and self affecting powers that were not affected by the patch, For example my Scrapper misses his punches more often yet his Invulnerability powers are just as effective as ever. Gravity/Kinetics players seem to have gotten a raw deal as 95% of both power sets are affected.
Also one of the things I liked very much about this game was that players several levels apart could still group together and be effective. Now if you are 3 levels above the rest of the group you are carrying it and if you are 3 levels below the rest of the group you are close to useless. 
LOVE NEW UPDATE, and just so every-1 know this patch was just a trial thing for the developers to really find out who is doing what
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I am another gamer that definatly doesn't like the latest changes. Last night and today I played my Gravity/Kinetics Controller and must say most of the fun has gone out of this charactor for me. ALL of my powers require me to hit a target to work. I spent every influence point I had to buy 6 Accuracy enhancements and people were still dieing too often in my group because I was regularly missing targets with my heals and buffs.
It seems to me that all other healers that I can think of do not have to hit an enemy to heal thier group so kinetics was the only group effected in this way. Was it really nessesary to nerf a heal that missed regularly even before the patch? I use 80% of my slots for Accuracy enhancements just to not feel usless in groups.
Most types of powers have passive and self affecting powers that were not affected by the patch, For example my Scrapper misses his punches more often yet his Invulnerability powers are just as effective as ever. Gravity/Kinetics players seem to have gotten a raw deal as 95% of both power sets are affected.
Also one of the things I liked very much about this game was that players several levels apart could still group together and be effective. Now if you are 3 levels above the rest of the group you are carrying it and if you are 3 levels below the rest of the group you are close to useless.
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This was the most annoying patch yet.. in fact I quit because of it this morning.. check out my post "why I am going to quit CoH"
Can't group, can't XP, no content, Beta Game.. not going to pay for it.
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LOVE NEW UPDATE, and just so every-1 know this patch was just a trial thing for the developers to really find out who is doing what
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That's the dumbest thing I have heard since.. well.. the last patch message.
thanks for the laugh tho.
I have not played a controller, but I am a gamer and have been for some time. I think the issue that is being missed here is one of balance. You are complaining about losing something you never should have had in the first place. What is the point of having different power sets within an archetype if they are not distinct? You mention that other controllers don't need to hit in order to heal. And? If that is the type of controller you want, play that type. Perhaps they aren't all supposed to heal. Perhaps you should RTFM and decide the type of character you want to play. Further, realize that this is a game. Enjoy the challenge. If you want everything to be touchy-feely and full of transactional analysis, join a 12 step program.
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I have not played a controller, but I am a gamer and have been for some time. I think the issue that is being missed here is one of balance. You are complaining about losing something you never should have had in the first place. What is the point of having different power sets within an archetype if they are not distinct? You mention that other controllers don't need to hit in order to heal. And? If that is the type of controller you want, play that type. Perhaps they aren't all supposed to heal. Perhaps you should RTFM and decide the type of character you want to play. Further, realize that this is a game. Enjoy the challenge. If you want everything to be touchy-feely and full of transactional analysis, join a 12 step program.
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Hear! Hear! DirtNap....well put indeed.
I've been reading through this thread and realize that many of the complainers either don't read comics or choose to ignore them. Allow me to use Marvel for example:
Who here can name the de facto (not necessarily official) leader of The Avengers?
Why Captain America of course.
How about the Fantastic Four?
Mr. Fantastic
And a bit more obscure (and old school), the Champions?
Angel (pre-Archangel)
What do these 3 leaders have in common?
They are all pretty much useless in combat but are all incredibly good tactical thinkers that can use what few abilities they have to best effectiveness no matter what the circumstances. This is the true essence of being a super-hero, not the amount of damage you deal out or the efficiency of your powers, but the ability to transcend one's limitations to achieve things beyond that of mortal ken.
This game doesn't require a massively powerful character to enjoy the game. You just must work and think tactically within the strictures of your chosen character concept. For example, I have a MA/SR scrapper (The Prime Minister) that I modelled after Captain America. In other words, I gave him powers that would not be beyond those of a normal (though perfect) human. This means it takes me forever to solo since I do very little damage with my kicks but my leadership and speed more than make up for this in a group. He is a gas to play! So what if he's feeble in combat, it just makes me think harder when playing. I guess you could say I nerfed him intentionally.
Some people seem to forget that not only the costumes but the powers you choose make each character completely unique. WIth this in mind have the people that complain about the patch tried to think outside the box and tried even a different archetype? I see many complaints from Controllers and Defenders and EN/EN blaster but few or none from Tankers or Scrappers.
Some would say that this is because the game is slanted towards those types but I believe that its more along the lines of a very vocal minority that keep whining again and again without attempting even to move outside their comfort zone. For crying out loud people, maybe you should just try a different archetype!
As to the specific nerfing issues that are being brought up, I just took Hasten with an electric Blaster and it rocks! As long as I am careful with my END I can solo quite nicely thank you very much.
Let me end this rant by stating that issues of game balance are far more important than how powerful you are and how fast you level. I have been dealing with Rules Lawyers since I started DMing D&D back in '79 and exploiting and enjoying the game are 2 very different things. Kudos to Cryptic Studios on the best MMORPG I have ever played and the best super-hero game for the PC (mind you thats in a field of only 2 ).
Through the Power of the Fist!
Capt. Hit-Guy
My 50s:
Prime Minister MA/SR Scrap - Protector
Captain Hit-Guy DM/Reg Scrap - Freedom
Prime-Minister ILL/TA Troller - Freedom
Ultimate Minister Inv/SS Tanker - Freedom
I only have one issue with "recent changes"... Provoke, why was it changed? For the burn exploit? And what of the rest of the people who don't abuse this power... Not everyone is an exploiter... I loved the way I played, and now its totally messed up because you can't find a better way to prevent this exploit? In previous posts you said "provoke is working as intended" (or something to that effect). Nothing about provoke has changed prior, so why did this change happen? I know there are other posts regarding this, but they may all be considered rants and be ignored. And since this post was started by Gecko himself and is regarding "recent changes" I feel its my best bet.
Valeon,
I too thought the provoke nerf was just in response to the way it worked with burn, but I believe they also were concerned that tankers with provoke made controllers obsolete since the tanker was in effect controlling the situation with provoke.
I am not taking a stance on this in any way, I am just relating what I had seen in other threads - so don't flame me for mentioning this you bastiges.
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LMFAO!!!!
What an absurd explanation for such a blatant, obvious, borderline assinine concept!
Ok lemme see now. Lets say I have a business. Most any business will do here. {I am sure there would be a very, very, very rare exception} Ok I have customers. They pay me money for goods or a service. My goal is to make my customers happy, make new customers, and make money.
Sound good so far?
But as time goes on {as it tends to do} I learn that my customers {the POPULAR majority} of my customers request a reasonable type of service or goods which they are willing to pay me their hard earned money for. Still with me?
So..........
I announce to my customers that just because something is popular with them; I and I alone reserve the right to deny them that! {keep in mind I have already included reasonableness in customers' requests in this equation}
Sound like good business practice to you?
Help me.
Regards,
Captain Beyond
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I agree with you. What, you may ask, allows me to put my .02 in here? I have a degree in Economics (with a specialization in Monetary and Fiscal policy).
What that statement says to me is "Go play WoW when it comes out". If the majority of the people want something, let them have it? Devs, does it cost you money to give us what we want? Will the game complain to you that the monsters are being beaten up too much and the game is going to quit if you don't nerf the players? Seriously, what's the hurt in allowing people to have what they want in a make believe world? A combo is broken? Who cares?!?! If the players are not challenged because of it, they will monitor themselves and not use that combo.. i.e. D&D Psionics 3.0 had some stupid broken combos.. no one I ever played with used them. We all knew of them, but thought the game wouldn't be as fun.
Let the players have what they want. I promise you that the game will not complain about it if it's mobs are killed more often.
Alex
Your Favorite Burner
PS-Please Buff the MC so I can start playing mine again.