Regarding recent changes
By
AbuliaDon,
Posted on: 2004-05-13 19:13 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Yea, I have since ready many threads regarding this. That probably had a lot to do with it. Though I think its just as ridiculous as the burn exploit. Provoke does not inhibit controllers at all. In fact my best friend is a controller and he has never complained to me or to my other friend (a defender) about provoke. We all work great together and as soon as we find a blaster (lol, not too hard on most days) we have a team started. I never 'control' a whole group with provoke, its not possible, it only affect a max of +4 right? And its duration is horrible on higher lvl mobs. So, if it was that big of an issue, they simply had to give it a higher recharge (though 10 sec. is horrible) or lowered its max affect to +3 or gone with the tohit change. Certainly this double whammy (tripple if you count them introducing this patch without the ability to enhance acc.) is overkill.
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I only have one issue with "recent changes"... Provoke, why was it changed? For the burn exploit? And what of the rest of the people who don't abuse this power... Not everyone is an exploiter...
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1. Using 2 powers that were presented as being correct in form and function is not exploiting.
2. Provoke + Invincibilty was just as bad as Burn + Provoke, except Inv Tankers didn't have to suffer a nerf to the accompanying power.
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2. Provoke + Invincibilty was just as bad as Burn + Provoke, except Inv Tankers didn't have to suffer a nerf to the accompanying power.
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OK, I can see this as a possibility, and though I don't have Invinc. yet I was definately taking it sometime. From what I have heard, it could make you a god in some peoples views, this is one reason I hadn't taken it yet. So, instead of nerfing the God power, they chose to nerf the power every tanker had counted on to keep their teams alive. Again I must ask; Why?
lol... I can only wonder... Why didn't they just tone down on Invincibility? I mean, isn't that obvious? 
You see people complaining about Invincibility all the time in the tanker forums...
Oh, and by your: 1. 'yada yada' Were you actually trying to defend the burn exploit? I don't like to flame first then ask questions so...
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Oh, and by your: 1. 'yada yada' Were you actually trying to defend the burn exploit? I don't like to flame first then ask questions so...
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Like I said, using 2 powers which are related as working as intended by the game developers at the time of use is not exploiting. Was it too good? Yup. Doesn't make it an exploit though.
regardless of the changes to burn/provoke the issue I have is with Geko's statement that mistakes with patch notes are "RARE" when the last 3 major patches were NOT TESTED, and NOT POSTED with patch NOTES, and I dont know about the rest of you, but even in FANBOI-dom
0-3 is NOT rare, it can now be considered COMMON PRACTICE.
NO testing, No patch notes = Stealth nerf, I understand the apologies, but the fact that the DEVS continue NERFs rather then fix the NEW problems they have INTRODUCED, such as the mob difficulty, and the accuracy/recharge enhancements in provoke etc...
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Why didn't they just tone down on Invincibility? I mean, isn't that obvious?
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Invincibility is a power that provides damage avoidance, a to-hit debuff for enemies that ramps up based on how many mobs are surrounding the tank.
Properly slotted with SOs, it generally takes only two or three mobs in close proximity to give a tanker maximum protection against getting hit by same level mobs.
Mobs that are higher level than the tanker will have increasingly greater relative accuracy vs. this power.
As far as nerfing this power, I believe there's a 95% cap on total damage avoidance, so even level 1 gangs could score a 1 point hit occasionally against a level 40 tank. But why name a power Invincibility if that's not what is meant?
This is a toggle power and can be shut off by stuns etc.
Damage avoidance powers also include Hover, Stealth, Tough Hide, and Combat Jumping.
Finally, everyone please choose a new target for nerfing. The tankers are looking pretty beat up now.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
invincibility is strong, but look at the name lol. I mean I saw a 27 tank take on 4 35's and not take damage. Is that balanced? no. Is it fair? probably not to some classes. Is it ok? of course, you don't make a skill set called invunerability and not make the player invunerable! I didn't like the nerf to provoke, smoke, and many other powers, but I don't think altering invincibility is the key.
We are super heros after all! And it's not cheap
Part of the problem with the Burn vs. Invincibility arguments is that they fundamentally worked in different ways, however, both were facilitated by the way Provoke worked. Burn allowed an individual tanker to reap massive rewards for very little risk, while Invincibility allowed groups to reap massive rewards with very little risk. The main bone of contention here was that both were enabled by the use of Provoke. It kept the villians close so that each power could work. Change that and you change how the powers behave, and you change the results that they yield.
I can understand why Burn/Invulnerability/provoke were/are being looked at, but it would have been a bit easier to micromanage if they had just changed provoke to start. Then muck around with the other powers. That way you don't get the drastic drop in preformance.
Again I am all for the idea that changes needed to be made to those powers, but stack them all up and you get some pain.
-Senturion
As for the burn "exploit" or the hasten "exploit" or the provoke/invinc "exploit"; its a load of crap all of it. The devs are delaying the inevitable. This game is unfortunately doomed. They are trying to balance out something that in a year will be running at AC2 numbers. If someone finds a way to level fast or have some fun let em. Your mistake not theres. Stop worrying about what to nerf and start worrying about what happens when the players hit lvl 40 and have nowhere to go. Start worrying when the players have read the book and seen the movie. With CoV not coming out for another year roughly then its gonna take alot of content update patches to keep anyone occupied for to long. I have a lvl 23 char and several lvl 15 and belows; to tell you the truth I am really getting bored. All there is to do is fight and if your not fighting your doing nothing. I dont count looking for a group or soloing, which if I wanted to do I would play Sacred or Far Cry, as something that breaks the monotony of the level grind. They had noble intentions when they started the game but somewhere it fell out from under them. I was really looking forward to this game but its lack of space and content is going to be its downfall. Granted it is fun blasting out tons of goons is the streets of Paragon, or at least it was then first 100+ hours I did it. I really could care less about fighting that new giant robot or circus clown gone bad, its all the same. As for pushing strategy and working harder for your kills; how can you even say its hard to develop strategy for this game. If things go bad its because a moron joined the group and doesnt know his job not because the AI is so smart and you have to develop new strategy. Its basic and once you figure out a good way to take em down you do it over and over again in every city zone in the game.
Lack of interest in future updates will kill them and nerfing everyone under the sky will not help players to want to stick around when more online games come out in only a few months (i.e. Guild Wars--not that great--, WoW--could be good--, EQII--another could be good--) Those few come out in August and have good potential.
We will see and only time will tell. I would like to renew interest in CoH as it is one of the few original online games on the market. I am a little dissapointed with the approach and lack of non-combat content though.
Thanks Gek, have been a fan of all your hard work since beta.
I had to wait 26 levels to fit Hasten into my build, and I am praying that it will not be changed. I know things change all the time, but since beta the two major draws to the game for me have been that our characters are superheros (dont need near as much nerfing as other MMORPGS because our powers should be extraordinary) and that we can feel confident when we use a hard earned power slot, it won't be wasted.
I can tell you at 24th-26th it is a long wait to get that next slot, can only imagine the wait from 34 to 36
My main concern is one that will affect my 26th level Magic hero tho. It was my understanding that no matter what origin we picked we would have the same rights as any other origin.
However after much research in game and on the boards, I have come to find that since I chose a Magic origin, Endurance Recovery SO's (for one, Flight speed another)are not available to me but other origins get them 30-35ish. People saying this is a bug in the game. Mutants supposedly get them at 27 other origins at 32.
My 32nd level friends have done the quest to open their special contacts, Mutants get em, Magic does not.
I built my character with endurance recovery as my primary enhancer to my group. These SO's are very important to my build.
Irregardless of me and my woes, you Devs have been wonderful about including us, your customer base, in all of the decisions you can, and you keep us one of the most informed player bases in the gaming world.
So, I want to say that this deserves something, those people who chose Magic Origins and any other ones that may have bugs deserve to know if a fix is forthcoming (or should we remake our characters as mutants who get these SO's at 27th), even better an estimated timeline for a fix.
This should be a fix for sooner rather than later as it seems all the origins should have the same ability to get origins if we meet the quest criteria that others do.
Last night when I was grouped the Mutant Defender had their SO's while the Magic Defender seemed quite useless when the Mutant said, "Nah let me do that, mine are better".
Thanks for your help and all your hard work
So true Cyclonis. EVERYTHING is the same you just lvl up and then you fight the same guys just a different skin but for some strange reason I am hooked LoL.Maybe I'll feel the same way as you in 2 months.
I presume the "will not Reduce Accuracy" is a aimed at those clamouring for a nerf of controllers.
I don't think reducing accuracy is the way to avoid statue fights. Just reduce the area of the ae control attacks. This would not severely impact on the Controller's ability to solo (where the crowd being attacked would probably still nearly all be within the area). However when in a group the Controller would be unable to catch more than (say) 30% of the (much larger) crowd of mobs. While this would still leave the Controller a very serious force in a team, the rest of the team would still get to fight animated foes.
This is on the topic of AM + Hasten. So, what I've been reading is that if you have a total of 10 SO recharge rate reducers divded between AM and Hasten, you'll be able to have them both up all the time, with no downtime? Does that sound right?
I've been sitting in the Brickstown Tram waiting for an answer to the question of Terrify Damage Enhancers for hours now, waiting to level up to 39, but I figure I might add more slots to Hasten since it's taking so long.
Geko- Awesome. 
As for Accelerate Metabolism and Hasten- Sounds like the usual super-powerful stuff that many analyzers came tor ely on the achieve results far beyond the norm. Lowering effectiveness is perfectly justified. So sorry if you cant defeat enemies that you shouldn't be able to. I still find AM to be a real boon. Do you really need to have maximum powers every fight? Can't you just plow in and use it whenever it's recharged? If people have their whole character built around those being perma-on or virtually so, well blah. You're just increasing your downtime.
As for the Popular comment- "a Republic will only last until the people realize they can vote themselves largesse." Or something similar to that. The Devs don't want the game to be too easy. That leads to boredom.
IMHO some Defender stuff is still too powerful. I have several Force field defenders and one is my main, and tis slightly too powerful. Individual bubbling, with many slots, with both bubbles, can make a group virtually invincible. Not only that but Cryptic doubled the duration- which means half the END burn for keeping folks bubbled. I really like it, it's nice. Too nice. IMHO the elegant solution would be to keep it as powerufl or slightly more even but only allow one defender to have Deflection OR insulation on the same friendly. That way two FFs could shield against both or stack one, but one FF can't provide universal protection. FFs are just amazingly good when you have both individual + dispersion all heavily slotted.
Geko,
Please take the "We must have xxx constantly or we suck!" posts with a grain of salt. As a Mind/Radiation Controller who ended up 6 slotting AM (3 SO Rechg + 3 DO End Recov) I have no issues with this power at the moment. It is up a LOT, and I don't even have hasten *Gasp*.
I could sit here and complain about some things in my AT and claim that they're the most important things to the game and need to be fixed right now...but I'd be delusional.
In my not so humble opinion, the biggest change you guys made to the game was the XP (Purple con) change. I'm not sure you guys really thought this all the way through. Several times now I have gone on level 30 missions only to find a level 35 Lt. at the end, which is essentially an NPC 6 levels higher than myself.
Now I know you know where an NPC falls on the 6+ levels higher than a player (In regards to effectiveness / accuracy) and I know you all have already made some changes to this (That aren't live yet). This should be #1 priority right now, you have obviously designed the game to have a high level NPC mixed in with some lower level NPC's (i.e. Crey's Folly). It has essentially brought my hunting to a halt on my primary character. I can't solo groups that have a purple NPC 5+ levels in it, and I can't find a group in these zones because everyone is soloing underlings for silly xp.
This game currently revolves around combat and grouping and both these things have been hit hard by the change. I have been saying the game is too easy since release, but changing from "easy" to impossible wasn't quite what I had in mind.
By the way, wanted to add that there is no middle ground between easy and impossible in this situation. It's an artificially inflated difficulty based 'solely' on the NPC's level. Make the tougher Lt's and Bosses more resistant in general rather than simply making them purple cons. If these are to be our primary challenges as we level, they should be very difficult, but not simply because I am 1% effective against them.
With the recent changes do you still think the game is impossible? Over teh past week 06-25-04 to 07-02-04 I've schooled some mobs I should be able to. I hit fast healing (only 1 end red SO in it) and take on a mob of 3 warwolves 3 lvls higher than I. I can take on 1 purple warwolf with 1 red warwolf at the same time in claw to claw.
Today I noticed that the indoor mobs are changing size. Typically the size was 3 minions or 1 minion + 1 LT. Today I've seen 2 LTs or 4 minions in some cases. I see this as a nice change and a good challenge.
I say thumbs up on the recent changes.
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With the recent changes do you still think the game is impossible? Over teh past week 06-25-04 to 07-02-04 I've schooled some mobs I should be able to. I hit fast healing (only 1 end red SO in it) and take on a mob of 3 warwolves 3 lvls higher than I. I can take on 1 purple warwolf with 1 red warwolf at the same time in claw to claw.
Today I noticed that the indoor mobs are changing size. Typically the size was 3 minions or 1 minion + 1 LT. Today I've seen 2 LTs or 4 minions in some cases. I see this as a nice change and a good challenge.
I say thumbs up on the recent changes.
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I will agree. I think the recent changes are, for the most part, outstanding.
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*I will make Statesman wash my car.
[/ QUOTE ] Considering his super-strength, do you really want him rubbing vigorously on your car's finish? 
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Considering super strength really isn't all that super I'd say at best he'll get a nice shine out of it.
I have to agree with Cyclonis as well. Even though I have only played CoH for a few weeks, I already feel dreary from the grind. Mission XP is pitiful to the point that everyone I know in the 20's just want to go "hunting" unless of course the servers are full and its better to have your own personal spawn. And at high levels its even more dreadful, because you have to get more than twice as much xp just to get a new power.
I played Ultima Online for a long time, and ran a popular free server for 3 years. On my server, I always tried to keep things new, whether I'd add a surprise monster or just login and roleplay some sort of mence. I always tried to think of ways find something for players to do other than just developing skills.
One thing I never did was lessen a classes ability to do what it was designed to do. Rather, I had spawns that were more attractive to various classes, the spawn could have been immune to magic, weapons, or pets. With balance anytime you remove something from a class, it just makes the others look stronger until everyone has a diminished capacity to play as they like.
Overall as I have stated elsewhere, the problems with burning out, AT balance, and maintaining subscription levels all come down to one fundamental part of this game. The only reward for play is achieved through dealing damage to enemies. Every AT should gain XP for doing what they do.
At any rate, I apologize for my rant. I just see so many avenues to make this game better for everyone, and alot of the talk all over these boards has to do with messing with someone else play. Or in my opinion, demanding small changes that will do nothing to maintain playability or the player base's interest for the next year. This game has one of the most refreshing concepts I have seen in a long time, we just need to get the mechanics down, before its too late...
This is why I'm here and will never again play an MMO from SOE or any game from Luca$fart$
hello, first time posting anything. or whatever this is.seems that the tankers class has been handicapped for a long while, i was just too stubborn a player to notice.i have recently gotten to level 28 and my role as a team player is getting usurped by scrappers.they have always done way more damage, but have relied on tankers to pull the aggro away in alot of combat sims.now they are melee masters ,able to hold aggro almost as good(just as good if the pick certain powers or pool sets),in addition to their dominating damage, and they have defenses against stun\mez that is deadly to tankers.everyone i have asked about this just say "go get US",but i do and with it on ,it seems i dont hold the aggro, and cannot help other teammates with it on as if i were mobile.i can hold a mobs aggro without taunt or provoke, but to do that mobility is key.using taunt (which is slow),or provoke(and wasting a power choice, what other class needs to pick a pool power just to do their role)just doesnt get the number of enemies aggro'd as i can moving,and should one slip past me to the team, well they are screwed because i cant drop US and close range in time to help them to any great effect.These scraprs however seem choice tankers for the higher levels, their defense AVOIDS most damage a tanker can only try to absorb.aggro only lasts as long as the enemy does, and they dont last long at all with a scrapper hitting them.tankers have come to epitomize the name they carry. slow, cumbersome,and easily taken out with the right equipment.and it would seem most bad guys are coming equiped with the powers to deal with a tanker.i used t olike tamking, it made me feel like i really wasa contributing member of a team,but lately all ive been doing is slowing the team down,with my weaknesses getting more routinely exposed, draining my teams defenders endurance on me instead of helping the entire team.it seems tankers need a babysitter to help them go antwhere, and levelling solo is very time consuming(less so then maybe a petless controller, but nonetheless).and SUPERstrength is kind of misleading, you would think i wouldnt have to hit a guy 10 times when a katana only needs to hit twice, or something.it is very frustrating,and cancelling my subscription at this point seems a just option(rather than renewing and renewing in hopes that SOMEtime in the future we will get a chance to contribute beyond our upper 20s)
"...in addition to their dominating damage, they (Scrappers) have defenses against stun\mez that is deadly to tankers."
(quoting from above, haven't figured out qoute system yet)
I have a lvl 29 scrapper drk/inv and have no def against stun or mez. In fact when I am stunned my only recourse is to run (hobble off slowly) or die. I too found no use for US as it makes me stationary and the mobs just run around me. I have a few questions regarding powers.
1. Where is this protection against stun that Commando11B is talking about? Because I need it desperately.
2. Are the devs ever going to upgrade the Maneuvers and Assault powers from the Leadership Power Set?
The fact that I can't add dmg enhancements to Assault is just mind numblingly frustrating. I thought at first that it would just increase as I lvld but this is appaerently not so. Early on, Assault added an average of one point per punch on Shadow Maul. That is a grand total of 8 extra pts per turn. Last night I tested it again on same lvl 5th Column baddies and in several experiments the results were the same: one pt per punch for a total of 8 pts. If this is a percentile thing, then this power has become weaker as I have lvl'd. Is this a bug?
Why does it cost so much endurance and give so little in return? Are you planning on fixing this problem or should I bag the power all together? If the latter is the case then I suggest to everyone reading this: Don't get Leadership it costs too much for very little reward."
My Invincibility seems to add a greater accuracy bonus than Tactics does. Is this true? If so, why?
Seth Polatkin -Lone Warriors- Liberty
P.S. I have been playing many characters and archetypes for the past three months and all of them are great. They all have some weakness but if you are clever, you can overcome that weakness. And if I'm not mistaken I think that is the point.
P.P.S. Please upgrade Leadership! (less endurance cost and Damage/ Defense enhancements allowed in Maneuvers and Assault )
1: Unyeilding stance, practiced brawler, obsidian sheild, and integration. Theres one anti stun power for every powerset for scrappers.
2:Manuevers and assault and tactics do more when a defender is using them, and its percentile based. 5% bonus to relevent stat for most people, but its 12% when a defender is the one casting it, and 10% or a controller (or some similar numbers). But as you go up levels, average damage doesn't raise awefully much, and your overall damage maybe be going up from a 1 point increase to a 1.5 point increase and your not seeing it in the rounded-off numbers.
Invincability should add more than tactics, especially when you have 4+ guys near you.
Leadership is ment for defenders, and when a defender is using it the effect is nearly double compaired to a tank using it.
hi, dude the game states when when you make a character, Tanker High Hit Points MEDIUM DAMAGE, Scrappers Medium Hit points and do damage HIGH. mmmm sorry if i sound sarcastic but thats sounds like a scrapper is suppose to out damage a tanker or is it just me? in game context basically they can't take what they dish out while a tanker can take damage and then some they hold the aggro while the rest of the team or scrappers kill foes, I'm not gonna lie i seen some tankers do alot of damage. maybe it's the way their powers are slotted and enhancements placed.
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(well, 9 out of 10 aint bad)
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Ah ha! I knew accuracy was nerfed!
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HEY! I nearly spewed my drink when I read this....
"I burn my candle at both ends, it will not last the night. But Ahhh my friends and Ohh my foes it makes a lovely light!"