tarrantm
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Posts
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Joined
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Umm no Medicine Pool?
I also think Fitness is overkill for a /Traps MM build. Add in some +Recovery set bonuses, and you can max out all 3 positional defense, pick up Aid Other and Self from the Med pool and Provoke from the Presence Pool and have a much cheaper build. Here's the chunk for it:
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Quote:I'm glad someone mentioned /Traps. I love it for soloing. It's perhaps the safest solo secondary around despite not having an associated heal in it and pairing it with Dark/ gives it a heal (it's not a great heal, but its better than Aid Self which can be interrupted with a DOT), which covers the only survivability hole in the set and makes Dark/Traps one of the toughest Corr sets I've tried out. It's not the fastest killer, but it takes some serious effort on ones part to get oneself killed with it, especially since the to hit debuffs of Dark/ stacks nicely with the defense of FFG. However, once I heard that 2xPistols were coming out, I lost all motivation to play any other kind of /Traps toon until 2xPistols/Traps happens.Originally Posted by Amir
I had a friend who made a dark/traps and he seemed to like it a lot too. /Traps can solo for corrs and I've seen it done. And of course, dark/dark is a classic. You can solo with this too. -
I've never been able to justify the cost of LOTG +Rech on any toon other than a Stoner or permadom. You can easily get by with Hasten and then sticking 4 Basilisk Gazes in Petrifying Gaze and Web Cocoon that you can drop Assault and Tactics for. You can add in a Commanding Presence: Taunt/Plac Res if you need it instead of taking a power for it. The need for recharge comes in when you fight AVs and need to stack the to hit debuffs and the recharge debuffs and need web envelope to keep em in your tar patch. Otherwise, yeah, you're not going to need the recharge much since the main attack chain for a 0/8 farm recharges in time for the next spawn.
Some of those powers like Gang War doesn't need the frankenslotting, just the +Def and +Res IO from recharge intensive pets. Heck, you don't even need the recharge in it if you don't want it. Gang War is an alpha soaker and a vehicle for those 2 special IOs, nothing more. Got it right on with frankenslotting Tar Patch and Dark Servant though, those 2 are probably the only powers in a Thugs/Dark build that need it. You could then fill out some of the other powers for the full set bonuses of the IOs instead.
You went overboard with the Numina in there, not that there's anything wrong with it, I just cringe at expensive IOs being used on builds that just kick butt and forget names without any need for it
If I pulled something like that, my melee toons would beat up my MM and steal the IO while I was logged out.
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Quote:Well, you can't just expect AOE damage without doing a bit of micromangement and/or prep work. Even with an Oni you need to position them just so, and with the ***-bot you need Mu to prevent knockback out of burn patches and you need to position your Fences just right because of the small AOE radius.Originally Posted by Jharber
(I know it seems that most people think that thugs have the most aoe dmg, I can't see how this is possible when the arsonist is always dead lol) I leveled Thugs/Dark to 26 and yes it was decent, the arsonist was an idiot and died so many times I just stopped calling him back lol. If that punk would stay at range then god yes the dmg would be drastically improved. Any thoughts on this? Does the arsonist stay alive more higher up if you put your buffs out and then perhaps send in the brute and the T1s last?
Also, getting Call To Arms: +Res and Expedient Reinforcement: +Def in addition to Sovereign Right: +Res and Edict of the Master: +Def gives the Arsonist a huge amount of survivability because Thugs has Gang War which is perfect for fitting in those 2 recharge intensive pet IOs (which you can't fit into on Bots, Ninjas or Mercs).
Picking an appropriate secondary such as /Dark or /Traps that has Holds and Debuffs in it makes them live longer as well. Combining Thugs with /Dark increases life expectancy of your minions due to the To Hit Debuff from pretty much all /Dark powers, in addition to a 22% Dam debuff (going upto 30% Dam debuff against single targets once you hit em with Twilight Grasp), an AOE Stun, AOE -Recharge (that you can stack with the -Recharge from Web Envelope) , a cone Fear and 2 single target 'holds' for problem Lts and can be stacked with Patron Holds for problem Boss mobs. Add in Tar Patch for a huge -Res debuff and your thugs just do obscene damage even without the Arsonist and have astounding survivability. Oh yeah, almost forgot Fluffy that basically doubles the heals, immobilizes and holds. The thing with /Dark is that you need +Recharge, you need Hasten and you need to spam your powers, constantly. Get Howling Twilight under 60s recharge and use it every time it's available. Open with Fearsome Stare -> Tar Patch -> Darkest Night each encounter. Your Arsonist should be able to tank pretty much any non-EB/AV/Hero boss with that kind of support. Minions won't be around long enough to pose a threat.
However, the biggest change in playstyle I made that increased my Arsonists life expectancy was binding a passive GoTo macro for him to Shift+Right Click to bring him into range of Twilight Grasp each time I needed to heal him with Shift+Left Click to attack my target to let him lose after healing. I have a similar setup with Ctrl+Left/Right Click on GoTo for my Bruiser. The rest stay on defensive for bodyguard.
It might just be that I like the active playstyle of Thugs/Dark. I know Bots/* or */Traps or */FF were absolute snorefests for me, but if you don't want Bots/Traps and are hunkering for more involvement in the lives and deaths of your minions, give Thugs/Dark another try.
Edit: I don't know what your build was at level 26. You should have had Fearsome Stare, Tar Patch and Darkest Night by then to evaluate endgame survivability. Did you try the GoTo macros for your Bruise to take initial aggro after your opening chain and for your Arsonist to then attack your selected targets? -
Just curious, I have the FF: +Rech on my MM and I know it doesn't work on my bot pets anymore so I was wondering whether it would be of any use to my ice/kin in Repel?
Does FF: +rech follow toggle activation rules like Performance Shifter: +End if slotted in Repel? Or does it only proc if it actually knocks back a mob?
If it actually does work, I can probably make Ice Storm perma. -
Quote:The only thing hard about being a villain is having to solo all the content due to the redside population (or lack of) issue. I feel my redside ATs are as a whole better put together than my blueside ones with a few exceptions and would very likely find blueside content way too easy. Of course there are the outliers like Fire/Kin, Scraps, Illusion and Body Mastery, but for the most part redside ATs just feel more powerful. As an aside, I've always wondered whether a MM would find Firbies as hard as Scrapyarders...Originally Posted by Doctor_Daedalus
It's always seemed kind of weird to me too how being a villain feels a lot harder than being a hero.
The seductive power of the dark side and all. It's supposed to be the quick and easy way. Story-wise pretty much every villain would be better off packing it up and moving to Paragon to be a hero. The only thing that'd reasonably keep my villains on the Rogue Isles all the way to 50 is some misguided pride in being able to survive it. I guess for the same reason I want to complete the LRSF some day: to prove I can. -
Quote:I'm aware of that. In hindsight, I should have used sarcasm tags.Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
You can't debuff anything lower than the 5% floor.
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Quote:So is it not possible to debuff DEF on resistance sets?Originally Posted by Laevateinn
It is.
Go tell that to the people whining that defense is overpowered and resistance sets need to be buffed. -
Quote:I don't see how we can answer to intent on some and not on others. Granted, MMs are force multipliers while solo, so having their secondaries cost more makes sense. Similarly, perhaps the double penalties do make sense for other ATs too and are WAI?Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Possibly. Scrapper and brute defense powers, corruptor and controller buff/debuff powers probably had no intent to cost more.
MM buffs/debuffs, OTOH, were purposely increased; the design intent seems to clearly indicate that they were meant to spend more for less.
Although, I am all for making the earlier, pre-stamina levels a lot less painful for all ATs (like the brawl change which was awesome!), I don't see how this is the way to do it. -
If that's the case, shouldn't there be equivalence in balancing endurance per defense as well? Controller/Corr/MM toggles (and powers) should cost less than Defender ones due to being less powerful. Right now MM toggle costs are higher than those for Defs and do less. Ooh, and Controller primaries would get a huge end discount over the Dominator primaries too right?
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I don't see what the problem with /Dark would be with /Rad having a similar playstyle and power. Then again, you can stick /Rad with dark colors and pretend it's dark. Then pair it with Dark Mind and voila, Dark Controller.
What I'm waiting for is /Traps for controllers so Gravity will finally have an extremely synergistic secondary to pair with. -
Quote:Since you're cherry picking, that's a perfect match scenario. Those two powersets were designed to achieve perfection together while everything else was just thrown together willy nilly. Then when you pair that support powerset with others, it still performs better than most of the randomly put together ones. That's hardly balanced.Originally Posted by Fulmens
... and there was much spluttering.
FIRST REACTION: so you're saying that the guy who has near-capped defenses, severe penalties to speed and recharge, and can use an unlimited amount of +Dam is a good match with Kinetics? Huh.
Hmm, I could have sworn SP stacks with FS to reduce AVs into mewling kittens.Quote:SECOND REACTION: Kinetics has a CRAP damage debuff. 25% per enemy (20% on a corruptor, 16% on a corruptor against +2s.) But even at the full 25%, that's similar in effect to 33% Resistance. Enemies take 33% longer to kill your friends, assuming perfect usage (hits everyone, fired off at the start of the fight, etc.)
Yeah /Rad is great for groups that can't arrest fast, like maybe all tanker groups before they get into their late 30s or defender/controller groups before their late 30's and the damage/pets kick in. The rest of the time, mobs fall so fast that it doesn't matter how long it would take them to hospitalize your friends because they're already dead.. umm arrested. That only compounds with FF. What use is taking upto 5 times do drop when mobs are arrested in less time than the 2 times it takes to drop?Quote:Compare Rad defenders, against +2s, where enemies take around four times as long to kill your friends with the same perfect usage. Or Force Fields where enemies up to +5 take ten times as long to kill your friends.
Kinetics protects along the premise of a good defense is a good offense. Hence why it stands out in terms of efficiency (arrests or loot over time). Small wonder it is the preferred set of farmers everywhere. It also may be the Corr mentality over the Defender mentality. Defenders think of protecting their team while us Corrs think of getting them before they get us. Either way I think Defs and their non /kin primaries get the short end of the stick.Quote:If you think Kinetics is protecting your team, you have set the bar extraordinarily low.
Does adding +Def double their arrest speed the way adding a Kin would? Does it give them Rain of Arrows twice per spawn in a group situation? Then again, we're talking Blaster damage multipliers here, which means 1 RoA application with FS could probably clear out +4 grapes. So I don't see how +Def could beat that unless you're talking about two boxing with the Defender as a pure buffbot instead of actually teaming.Quote:THIRD REACTION: What in the name of small stone idols makes you think that Controllers, Defenders and Blasters don't need +Def on a team? Have you SEEN what a couple of force fielded blasters are like? Blasters with no fear of return fire put out an appalling amount of damage, all the time, over large areas, and they only stop when they run out of targets. Hell hath one fury like a woman scorned, and that's a Blaster who can finally open up the can. -
Wait wait, they actually fixed power buffs in CO with character size changes? Last I checked, shrink ray was just a pretty effect.
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Quote:It's an interesting point you make about /Kin in that it pretty much covers everything a team could need vs. several other secondaries that have no such depth and breadth. It's not just + rech, + rec, + speed, + damage but also healing, huge damage debuff on multitudes of mobs and single target AVs, status protection for the huge damage dealers (blasters) on your team and damage resists.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I can understand that. It is why when I discuss Kin, I try to clarify that I think its a bit off kilter everywhere and not just on controllers. To me, its not containment, its great +rech, +recov, +speed, and massive +damage, all of which are perma on an entire team (although the Kin themselves do not get +recov, Transference covers that lack). Its the Kin that impresses me, not the control (but I am biased against control, as I feel it is highly overrated).
The only thing really lacking from it is a defense buff and I think defense is horribly weighted in the Defender primaries vs. other goodies mainly because ATs that need it (tankers, brutes, scrappers) can cap it without needing a dedicated +DEF set like FF.
I just imagine if Kin had a 10-15% defense buff, it would basically lose the Heal, lose the +damage component of SP/FS, lose SB and lose SS. Obviously the devs think different, but I just can't see Defense buffs being that important that something like FF lacks the debuffs that Sonic has and sonic is one of the less useful sets. Then of course Traps blows FF and Sonic out the water in terms of what it can offer but still doesn't provide the force multiplier than Kin would provide for a team and I say that as a big fan of Traps (it's what finally convinced me to try a Defender after playing a Traps MM and Corr).
In the interests of full disclosure, I don't have a Kin Def, only a /Kin Corr and in terms of team contribution, no other AT can touch my /Kin in making my group an unstoppable killing machine (and I've done some crazy stuff with my /Traps /Dark /Storm MMs and /Rad trollers). And if I pair him up with a /Stone Brute I have the game on ezmode.
Coming back to the original topic though, I just can't see Storm, Rad, Warmth or Dark (I might have omitted a few like Poison that aren't available all around) being balanced at all with more effective T9s (or even T8s for some of them). The rest of the sets definitely need to be re-evaluated in what it offers a team while leveling and at the endgame, some more than others. -
/Kin Corr or /Dark MM depending on what AT your friend makes. A /Kin would go well with any MM, Brute, SoX, Stalker, Dom but only with certain Corr secondaries. A /Dark MM would pretty much go well with anything, albeit, it won't be the speedy steamroller that the /Kin combo would be.
If this is your first serious toon on this server, I'd advise the MM route. If you can get your hands on a decent amount of infamy, then go with the /Kin + other combo since you'll be able to use IOs to make up for defensive shortcomings.
Either way, try and get the following between you:
- Serious Damage (Stalker, SoX, Dom, Brute, MM) or damage buffs
- Status protection for the main damage dealer
- Mitigation/Heals -
Quote:Play a Crab yet? softcapped def, damage, group buffs, mob debuffs, self-heal, pets.Originally Posted by Peterbilt
This thread is full of WIN. Can I add to the wish list? I want my defender to have defenses like a tank, hit like a blaster, controller pets plus all the defender primaries and bonuses and, just because I can ask, add an automatic recharge bonus so we can get all our attacks of faster than all the other ATs. I think Defenders deserve this because, hey, we're tired of only being support and having scrappers laugh at our DPS. Come on, we're defenders. If you want damage, play a blaster, or scrapper, or controller, they all can do lots of damage.
Then again, if VEATs were the standard that all other ATs were measured against, the only ATs that would compare would be controllers and masterminds. That, however, does not mean that 'trollers and MMs need to be beat with the nerfbat. It's just an indication of the potential changes necessary for other support ATs before GR goes live. -
Quote:I don't think bringing down 'troller secondaries (other than maybe /Kin) is a valid solution considering the existence of Masterminds and Corruptors with GR on the horizon. I honestly don't think bluebies have been sufficiently exposed to the 'fender primaries in the hands of competent MMs and Corrs to even entertain such an idea. I can't wait to bring across my 10+ MMs (and Brutes and VEATs) to blueside once GR hits (because redside is so deserted and the few people I play with on redside plan to do the same). Expect to see the real shortcomings of 'fender secondaries highlighted once that happens.Originally Posted by brophog02
As I said in another thread, any disparity adjustment would need to come from bringing controllers down, not Defenders up. I've never seen anything to suggest Defender primary effects were anything but on the very high side as it is.
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Umm, that's a lot of attacks that won't make the attack chain. Maybe drop 2 (or 1 and buildup) and pick up Maneuvers and Physical Perfection?
Something like this mebbe?
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Quote:Probably because saps are mostly ineffective against higher levels, and lets be honest, even a SO build doesn't have too much trouble with equal level minions to have to rely on sap; not to mention after Lightning Rod, Thunderstrike and Ball Lightning, all the minions should be dead and you should be left with just the boss/lt. Power Sink doesn't recharge fast enough to use it as a full draining tool and LF and BL drains aren't enough by themselves to drain mobs fully (although they are good enough to take care of recovery in order to keep the mobs low on end). In addition, sapping doesn't do anything to help you deal with the alpha any better in group situations, so.. umm.. it's nice slotting it for PvP.Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I find it interesting that, in a discussion related to optimizing Elec/Elec survivability, nobody has mentioned endurance drain. I've found that Power Sink, Lightning Field, and Ball Lightning can sap out minions quite quickly, greatly reducing incoming damage. It's also effective at dropping toggles on certain problem enemies, particularly Cimerorans who lose their mez protection when drained and thus become vulnerable to KD. Is this no longer considered a viable survival tool for some reason?
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I'm sure one of the more experienced brutes can give u a better organized one, but I just threw together a (relatively) cheapo recharge + hitpoint increase + self-heal plan to go along with the new Energize in the mix (grab the updated Mids from this thread: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=188393) to view it:
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Heh, I see the upcoming CO release is having an effect already..
And yes, it will make lower levels a lot more enjoyable.. -
Quote:Fair enough. I play my toons until max level and then I roll new ones. The journey of the toon is more important to me than the 'endgame'. Actually, the endgame in CoX is akin to boss farming in Diablo 2 for items and I'd much rather do Pindle runs for an ethereal Windforce than the endgame farming for inf and grapes in CoX. Sure I play around with IOs and regular sets during the journey of the toon, but crafting them for the 'endgame' .. ugh.Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Your expectations are not my expectations. /stone is the WORST mitigation set in the game for me. Why? Because the mitigation it offers is less than pathetic for 37 levels. It's mez protection kills your movement. Lack of movement kills fury.
Even after 38, it's locked into teleport or it gets destroyed by curbs.
I had a much harsher reply to your post than this, but I find that it's not worth it to me anymore.
Believe whatever you like. The devs aren't listening to arguments like yours anyway.
FWIW, the pathetic rock armor has given me better performance than charged armor and dark embrace just because of it's DEF debuff res. It's performed better in the lower/mid levels than those two and been quite comparative to /Nrg which only began to fail me right after I got stamina. Yeah I'm aware that oranges and grapes can plug all the holes in all the secondaries and make them useful with a few billion inf. That's not my thing. If leveling the toon ain't fun, I'll play another toon, and when I run out of them (still got a whole series of defenders and corruptors to try) I'll play another game, especially now since this isn't the only superhero game in town. -
Quote:It's not the lack of complement. It's that matching primaries and secondaries are actually detrimental for the non-ezmode sets - i.e. Elec/Elec or Fire/Fire, whereas other matches such as SS/Inv and Stone/Stone work great. Ok I take that back, anything pretty much works great with /Inv and /Stone which is the point I was making. Those ezmode secondaries don't need specific primaries to stand on their own. That doesn't have to be how the game will be because enough complaints can get things monitored and then changed.Originally Posted by Leo_G
I wouldn't say requires a specific primary to survive, but rather specific primaries will not complement certain armor sets. And that's just how the game will have to be.
They don't have to be duplicate in form or function, merely effectiveness. Remove about 80% of the S/L attacks in game and about 40% of the Energy attacks in game. Replace them with a mix of Psi, Neg and Cold and maybe the other sets might .. err.. nevermind, they still couldn't compete with the ezmode secondaries in effectiveness. The devs keep introducing new sets like WP that are more powerful than the older ones that then require revisions which in turn leads to mudflation (despite the lack of items, the end result is the same). The few powersets that fall behind end up rotting in the shadows.Quote:Unless you want every set to be exact duplicates of eachother, one set will be complemented better by x, g, m and r set while not meshing well with q, y and k set. As long as the devs introduce new sets with varying capabilities and effects, that is just how things will be.
And if WP + Psi can do 50% of the content and Shields + Rad can do the other 50%, it would be balanced. To take your example to represent the current situation, any of the ezmode sets + anything can breeze through 95% of the content while the hardmode sets are struggling to handle 50% with the same efficacy.Quote:And because of this, player expectations will change as well. Because Willpower + Psi Melee can do such and such so every other set must do such and such or be compensated for it or Shields + Radiation Melee can solo this and that but you can't with Energy Aura or Elec Armor so those sets are broken....
There are team expectations of a Brute. If other ATs can bring the SMASH and survive better than the non-ezmode sets, what's the point in having the hardmode sets? The only use I see for them are aesthetics and e-peen brags. If that's the case, we need a new AT for them so we can avoid them.Quote:I think you're over analyzing your team contributions and over emphasizing your role in a team as a melee AT. Just because you're a Brute doesn't mean it's all about you. Either you combine what you can do with your pri/sec sets with that of the team or just worry about your own bum. You're not a defender and you're not a tanker. -
I dunno, I'm just not seeing this bringing /Elec to the same level as the revised and rounded secondaries. There's still nothing preventing /Elec being debuffed into the negative defenses, end discount is redundant with Power Sink, the heal doesn't give a +HP boost to make it a stronger Resistance set, although the regen is nice since +heal enhancements will boost both the heal and the regen. I still think Elec needs better S/L resists, a +Resist DEF Debuff in addition to +HP to make it a good secondary on par with the recently revised sets.
Ugh and Grounded is still buggy on stairs and during Lightning Rod. It's been a few years like that now? -
Quote:I think your first statement is correct and so is the OP to an extent. Other than for /stone, /willpower and /inv (and I guess SD as well), the other sets are hardmode and need to be combined with a specific primary to even survive, not necessarily to do exceedingly well. The ezmode secondaries have several things in common:Originally Posted by _Deth_
Then all the sets are broken except /stone, and maybe /inv.
To make them sturdy, it takes little to no effort. Every other set requires some extra effort on the players part to get to the same performance.
I'm sorry, but I just can't take any argument seriously anymore on this issue. I just took a level 27 /DA stalker, and running papers set on relentless, took on 4 mobs at a time. Not even conned mobs, +2 and +3 mobs, red con lt's and purple conned bosses. Freakshow no less, where DA is gonna get hammered due to no energy resistance and a whopping 5% total defense. And no, I don't even have murky cloud on that toon yet, so there is no energy resistance at all. The bosses, when I was stupid enough to just stand in front of them, could 2 and 3 shot me easy.
If this guy is having this much of a problem, it is his build, period.
- A reasonable mix of +DEF, +Res and +Res to DEF Debuff
- HP Increase/Heal and/or Regen
- Easy End management in terms of # of toggles, toggle costs and self-heal costs.
Dark's just got too many toggles that don't do enough and stupidly expensive/unreliable self-heals in addition to having all the shortcomings of the other craptastic sets.
Elec gets debuffed into negative DEF and can barely trigger Aid Self.
Eng doesn't scale enough with enemy numbers.
Fire at least has a dirt cheap heal that puts it in the middle of the performance pack between the suckage sets and the ezmoders.
Just pick up an extra attack or 2 and tele and all /Stone's issues are covered. /Inv needs even less. /WP doesn't suffer the fury decay of the weaker sets of waiting for endurance or health before the next set of mobs. /Dark in particular is horrible for this because of the number of toggles, the huge endurance costs of the heals and the craptastic defensive values compounded by the slowness of fury gain due to CoF or OG running (and I say that as someone who thinks /Dark is absolutely awesome for my Scrapper).
After giving up on Brutes after leveling a Dark/Dark and a Elec/Elec, I recently came back and started a Fire/Stone and it feels like a night and day difference from the other sets I've played and I no longer feel like a /Traps Corruptor would be a better addition to the group than the Brute. That is, I think, the biggest issue with playing one of the non-ezmode brute secondaries; the feeling that some other AT can do the Brute's job you're doing better.