Defender Tier 9s need Balance

Because -all- that Fulcrum does is double the damage of a properly slotted character. That is basically its single function in regular play. Yes, it debuffs targets as well but that ends up being meaningless except against AVs or when soloing.

It has a 45 second duration. Contrast with Heat Loss which has a 90 second duration and 300 second recharge. Are you really so sure to say which is better?

Liquefy has long been a source of contention so I'm not going to get into this except mentioning that -50% in a set that can (on a Defender) already reach -30% at all times and -60% with liberal Sonic Siphon spam? On top of that fact that it's already both a soft (KD) and hard control (short duration Hold) with copious amounts of debuffing for both self-protection and offense? I'd love it but I can tell you with a high...scratch that, regular recharge build, it'd be grossly, grossly overpowered.

You think Green Machine needs anymore incentive to be obscene? Do you even recognize what this buff does?

... The damage? If you're using HT for damage, you're doing something horribly wrong. And tripling the damage would make it do what, at most 30 damage unslotted? Wtf is the point?

And your opinion is wrong. I've seen PuGs use Force Bubble successfully.

Lol. No. Okay: 120 second recharge for a double length duration AoE Mag 3(+1) Hold that also has some pretty savage debuffing attached to it? Have you played a Controller with a Mag 3 AoE Hold? If you have, you'll know why this is pretty laughably unbalanced.

Go check the numbers on Cinders, Glacier, or any of the rest. Go ahead, I'll wait.

So, I know of at least one specific friend off-hand that has a toon with Heat Loss nearly permanent. 300 seconds down to 90. They would have Heat Loss up every fight. And they'd be able to stack the recovery buff 3 times over. Why would anyone play anything but Cold at this point? With a total of -60% resistance debuffing, awesome shields, a unique +HP buff, AoE Stealth... It's already insanely awesome and you want to make HL that powerful? ...

Are you sure? Looking at your suggestions above, you're either joking or woefully inconsiderate of what the term "balance" means.

All the Tier 9 powers have their own special effects. Fulcrum has one specialty. And that is damage. That's it. On a properly-slotted character (which they would be by 32/38), the best it can do is double damage output. Any of the above sets with -RES debuffs up there can do that if paired with Sonic Attack and more. Long before 32/38. At this point, I've lost the patience to argue against your above claims further but...



Explain, point by point, exactly why you think the other powers need such blatant breaking to "equal" Fulcrum? And what exact situation made you believe this to be true? And how much AE have you had in your diet?

LostHalo has nailed it. The real problem with defenders lies in a crappy inherent, slow soloing speed (specifically for those sets with single target ally buff powers), and the AT's concept in the day and age of IOs and loot.

Many roles that defenders are designed (ie: supposed) to fill on teams are now done as well (or better) by IOs and set bonuses.

What?

Seriously, do you realize what this power does now?

Okay, this statement, I am going to have to contest. Because it's utter tripe.

I want you to show me any build that does not include Purples or PvP recipes, a build that an average player actually has a shot at making without farming their rear ends off, that beats all of the buffs / debuffs from any Defender Primary / Controller Secondary.

Show me a build for a tank, scrapper, or blaster that offers the amount of debuffs, the amount of resistance, the amount of mez protection, anything.

While I bet you can show me some soft-capped builds that have more smash / lethal defense than Cold or Force Field can offer, you aren't going to be able to show me a build that has those defensive buffs and the anti-mez of a Force Field or the debuff of a cold.

While I bet you can show me some builds that have the recharge rate of a kinetics, you aren't going to be able to show me one that can hard-cap the damage multiplier, boost the movement speed, boost the recover, add mez-protection, and heal as strongly.

In other words, you are full of manure with that statement.

And I seriously doubt you could do it even if you could use Purple sets and PvP sets.

Now, I get the fact that you don't like an archtype that's built to aid teams. That's fine and dandy. Just don't make yourself look like a complete moron because you don't like the concept.

Well, it's an autohit AoE stun, slow, afraid and massive regen debuff power that also has minor damage and a PBAoE rez attached as an occasionally useful side effect?

So much for trying to respond to reason.

First of all you've changed the conditions of my statement completely in a futile attempt to make a point. What point is not clear, nor is why.

So let me clarify my points for you since you seem to have failed at picking them up.

1) Defenders have a crappy inherent.

You didn't contest any part of this statement.

2) Defenders that have ally buffs tend to solo slowly.

You didn't contest this either.

3) You must be taking exception with the part that goes "Many roles that defenders are designed (ie: supposed) to fill on teams are now done as well (or better) by IOs and set bonuses."

Then you come up with lots of exceptions and why the IOs and set bonuses shouldn't count in the statement. Ridiculous.

I can build a Tank with IO sets, both a cheap build, and an expensive one that can solo +4/x8 without any defender buffs (I have a fire/fire/pyre built this way). I have absolutely no need for forcefields, sonic buffs, heals, FS etc. I can solo fine, at a reasonable speed, against a full team's worth of +4 mobs.

I can build a Scrapper with IO sets, both a cheap build, and an expensive one that can solo +4/x8 without any defender buffs (I have a BS/shield and a dark/regen/body built this way). I have absolutely no need for forcefields, sonic buffs, heals, FS etc. I can solo fine, at a reasonable speed, against a full team's worth of +4 mobs.

I can build a Blaster with IO sets, both a cheap build, and an expensive one that can solo +4/x8 without any defender buffs (I have a Arch/Energy Hover blaster soft capped to ranged and with good AoE defense and an Energy/Energy/Force blapper built this way). I have absolutely no need for forcefields, sonic buffs, heals, FS etc. While a bit more mez protection than defiance provides MIGHT be useful I can combine insps faster than they drop to keep me in all the break frees I need. I can solo fine, at a reasonable speed, against a full team's worth of +4 mobs.

I can build a Controller with IO sets, both a cheap build, and an expensive one that can solo +4/x8 without any defender buffs (I have a Fire/FF, a Fire/Storm perma stunner, and a Plant/TA/Fire built this way). I have absolutely no need for extra forcefields, sonic buffs, heals, FS etc. While a bit more damage than containment provides MIGHT be useful I can survive just fine and take all the time I want to kill the mobs. I can solo fine, at a reasonable speed, against a full team's worth of +4 mobs.

I can't say that exactly about my defenders especially those that are buffers. I have a FF/Dark/Dark that is soft capped to every thing but melee. I have every extra bit of recovery and end reduction possible, and all +max end accolades, but I can easily bankrupt myself on endurance while soloing and I don't even have hasten to make the end gurgle away faster. Because I provide soft capped defenses to the team I don't get an endurance benefit even teamed though I don't have to kill all the mobs by myself.

My TA/A is in the same boat. I can keep the mobs out of melee fairly easily. I don't have soft capped defenses and I simply don't do enough damage fast enough to kill the mobs fast enough for insps cover the holes. I also have end problems especially near the end of most fights.

The bottom line is that defender roles are getting smaller and smaller all the time. IO set bonuses mean that defenders are less needed on experienced teams especially those teams that have heavy IO use.

Defender roles in PvP have virtually been eliminated due to diminishing returns. What was a team focused part of the game is now designed more for a bunch of soloers. Base raids where defenders would have had at least some type of decent PvP role have been turned off since the travesty that is I13 PvP was foisted off upon us.

Going Rogue is going to make it worse yet as redeemed corruptors replace many defenders with only the few exceptions of those power sets unavailable to Corruptors. This too may change as more power sets are proliferated.

Why do I mention all this? In another thread Castle recently mentioned that he knew that there were too many defense set bonuses in the game (he also mentioned that there are no plans to change that).

If you were around for Issues 3 through 6 you will have seen something familiar in all this. Defenders had little team role to fill, especially in the higher levels, because there was too much defense and resistance (tanks also did too much damage) and 6 slotting made the game ridiculously easy. A tank could go into a mission, set hand clap on Auto, and go AFK, then come back a few minutes later to an empty map and completed mission.

The result was that defenders complained about having no real role on high level teams. The dev team that we had at that time listened and "fixed" it by making defender buffs needed again. The fix that they slapped on us was known as ED and the GDN. It made defender buffs a more integral part of the game.

IOs have the game straying back to pre-ED and GDN levels again. The defender role and concept is once again being squeezed. While defender buffs may be a nice to have the defender role is no longer integral on a team. The lower powered buffs from Controllers, Corruptors, and even Masterminds are more than adequate for most mid-experienced teams with cheap IOs and are almost with out exception totally unneeded for experienced teams with heavy IO use.

So let me just close with this last bit. I like my defenders just fine, since you made it clear that you don't get that, but my reasons to bring them on to a team (and the fun provided by doing so) has been dwindling ever so slowly but ever so steadily over the last 7 issues, not because I'm doing any thing differently but because IOs are filling in the gaps of those better defender buffs. Sure there is content out there like the MoSTF or a Hami or Ship raid where they are still needed/desired but that's not the case for most of the content in the game.

As far as the manure stench and personal attacks go, they are coming from your direction, not mine.

This one.

/thread

I know the thread is about Defenders, but Controllers get FS too, and it's ludicrously easy to set up for them.

Yes. Because if AB were perma out of the box (OP's suggestion: 90s recharge. Current duration: 90s), maybe people would realize how much ridiculous fun rolling nukes is, and stopp rolling healers

Kinetics that don't live on the edge aren't real Kinetics!

I was going to try to take this post seriously, but this just killed it. Asking for a defender to have access to a Warburg Chem nuke every 90s is ridiculous. It's not balanced, especially when taking all of the other aspects of Liquefy into account.

And here you're expecting that the two best Holds in the game (both have 1.0 accuracy, as opposed to the 0.8 accuracy of all other AoE Holds; both have a 50% chance for an additional mag 1 Hold, which means they have a 50% chance to Hold bosses without stacking another Hold; neither has an endurance crash; and both have insanely long durations for defender powers) be made better?

I have an idea. Don't recommend changes in the name of "balance" until you know what is and is not balanced in this game. Hint: your suggestions aren't even close to balanced.

I can make an almost unkillable WP/ tanker without using Purples/PvP IOs (though...that said, I'd love to put the +3% Defense IO into the build anyways )

Won't be a damage, AV soloer, but handle the ITF set to max diff no problem, and handle Recluse with use of the tier 9, and keeping 2 skittles in use at all times when the tier 9 is down, yes.

And as it's a WP/ tanker, with no chance to be the big time dmg dealer needed to solo AVs, even with SB, it really doesn't need SB other than to use cool attacks faster.

Just saying

The problem that I have with this thread is that the Tier 9's are being analysed in isolation of the rest of the set.

Fulcram Shift is the defining power of Kinetics pretty much the only reason people take the set, if it was nerfed what would be the point?
You need to play in melee to get the majority of the benefits at high risk with a set that offers little mitigation.

Rad on the other hand is full of useful powers, EM Pulse is a bonus as are many tier 9's of other sets.

IMO FS and Kinetecs are fine when compared to other sets and what they offer as a whole.

Suddenly I'm reminded of a particular Assault set...

Also, to the thread in general: What of the fact that FS basically replaces Siphon Power once you get to 32/38?

Lies.

Traps has no tier 9, the set only goes up to 8.

:P

Well it does and it doesn't. On my kind/dark I still use siphon power, primarily for its debuff. Its fun completely neutering an AV or GM with large amounts of -dam.

yes, and i want to do it every other mob

All irrelevant, unfortunately. The devs purposely ignore builds such as these when balancing the game because such a small fraction of the player base attains them.

If you want things changed due to the strength of IOs, you need to convince the devs (and anyone else who approaches balance similarly) of two things, not one: that set bonuses really are that strong, and that enough people really do use them. And that is more a matter of talking the devs into lowering what they consider "enough", since they already have access to the raw data.

well, interesting you ask about AE. its obvious you think im a farming newb in awe of FS and i just "dont get" the other tier 9s
I was one of the few who quit this game because of AE, i reactivated at the start of i16 open beta. and i have played every hero side AT to 50, some more then once and im telling ya most of the defender tier 9s are not around often enough

the reason for this post has more to do with how used these powers are when i play these ATs and the ultimate impact on the game,
if you think any of these has more game wide impact the FS let me know. not because i wanna say you are wrong. i really want to hear your thoughts.

i dont wanna just stop at recharge, i just wanna see them have more consistent contributing really. if that means reduced affects for more "play time" for the 9s id be ok with that too. \

does everyone think the world is right as rain? or some changes need to be made.

yea, it does 2 SB worth of recharge and more regeneration and recovery then both auras combined,
and you can put it on one guy sometimes, on 2 perma would be more fun