Defender Tier 9s need Balance

That doesn't say all roles it says many. Shall we go over a few?

Knockback protection IOs - Increase density. Sure ID is better but how much better? For the majority of content -4 KB is enough. There are only a very few times and places that mag -10 from the defender ID is better (and slotting 4 of the -KB IO's is better, costs you not a drop of endurance, and its there 100% of the time even if you don't have a kin on the team that constantly refreshes it before it expires). In most of those same circumstances controller mag -8 or corruptor mag -9 are still suficient. (And before you say it, no, 1-3 extra slots are not a big sacrifice, since your other option (acrobatics) requires 3 powers (and taking a pool that you may not want) and is a constant endurance drain.)

Recovery bonuses - Unslotted defender values for Heat Loss +62.5%, Speed Boost +50%, Recovery Aura +200%, Adrenalin Boost 800%, Accelerate metabolism +30%. Numina's +/+ Miracle + and a few minor recovery bonuses can easily give you a boost of 30%. How much is needed? On my most endurance intensive toon (a blaster) frankenslotting powers for decent end red (cheap in terms of influence) with ED capped Stamina and Miracle + and Numina +/+ slotted in Health are enough to keep my blue bar topped off as fast as I can sling damage with only 2 exceptions, against endurance drainers (which aren't all that common), and if I forget to turn my travel power off during a long battle. That's it. That recovery bonus is there 100% of the time. There is no down time as there is with HL and RA or with SO slotted AB or AM (IOs let some defenders perma these, SOs do not). Even then recovery buffs from Base Empowerment stations and the Geas Accolade are sufficient against endurance drainers. Values higher than that are essentially wasted (hence overkill or obviated)

+Stealth - Steamy Mist -35 feet, Arctic fog -35 feet, Shadow Fall -35 feet. Stealth IO -30 feet. Stack with another form of stealth and you have PvE invisibility, in either case 5 feet is virtually unnoticeable and the IO goes where I do. I don't have to stay within 40 feet of a potentially erratic defender.

+Perception - O2 Boost +108.1%, Clear Mind +108.1%. Rectified Reticle Unique, +20%. What's a large enough value to allow you to see a stealthed mob in PvE? +20%.

+Recharge - Speed Boost +50%, Adrenalin Boost +100%, Accelerate Metabolism +30%. IO sets - multiple. It's not hard to get +30% from global recharge bonuses, +50% can be expensive but doable for alot of players, +70% and higher is usually going to be in the realm of the power gamer. Of those powers Speed Boost is the only one that can be applied to all team members 100% of the time with out the defender themselves having slotted IO sets and this power comes at the cost of a measurable amount of the defender's activation time. Accelerate Metabolism can be perma'd on a team with IO use by the defender. Adrenaline Boost can be made perma with IO use by the defender but can only be applied to a single target at one time. (I'm sure that you'll point out that more +rech is better and it is, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that pre-IOs the ONLY way to get those additional +recharge values was by including a buffer on the team. [Aside from accolades and base empowerment buffs that are still available today]. That's not the case in the post-IO game.)

+Defense - Force fields +15% (slotted 22%), cold shields +15% (slotted 22%), Fortitude 15% (slotted 22%). Set bonuses - Multiple. It isn't at all difficult to add 12% defense to all positions to any AT in the game and 20 to all positions is within the realm of possibility though it's more likely to be 25-30 to a single position (say ranged for a blaster) or to a couple types like smashing/lethal. Let's take the worst case scenario, a no/low mitigation blaster. +20% to all positions is all most the same as what is granted by the defender from using 2 powers on you (one in the case of Fortitude but this power can't be maintained on an entire team of 8 players.) A mere 7% defense to all postitions (easily achieveable with a few mid-priced IOs and some cheap sets) means that having controller buffs are just as good as what was previously available only from a defender. Additionaly 12% defense to all positions from sets reduces your need for healing and regeneration buffs by 25% as well as reducing the need for resistance buffs from Sonics (and Thermal when/if it gets ported to defenders). With an Armored AT like scrappers and tanks, where reaching the defense softcap with powers + Set Bonuses is possible, higher defender values are wasted (hence overkill or obviated). Plus defense set bonuses also reduce the value of accuracy debuffs. (I'm sure that you'll point out that more +defense is better and it is until you hit the soft cap, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that pre-IOs the ONLY way to get those additional +def values was by including a buffer on the team.)

+Damage - Fortitude +31.3%, Accelerate Metabolism +25%. Set bonuses - Multiple. While Fort levels are only in the power gamer range, a 10-20% boost to damage is not tremendously difficult to attain.

-defense -resitance. I mention these for a couple reasons. Slotting for accuracy set bonuses and the Kismet unique make defense debuffs less valuable additionally power sets such as the newly added Radiation for Blasters as well as Broadsword and a few other powers in other sets allow the slotting of the Achilles heel proc a debuff that prior to IOs you had to get from a debuffer.

To add insult to injury - grantable -rech/slow resitance which was prevously only available from Adrenalin Boost and Speed Boost is now available, not only in IO form (Winters Gift 20%), but from a non-defender power set (shields).

To add further insult to injury grantable Defense Debuff resistance which probably "should" be a defender only power effect is available ONLY from shields.

I don't know about you but that's enough set bonuses that affect buffer attributes to qualify as "many" to me. Since the defender is primarily a buffing/debuffing and team oriented AT it concerns me that the defender role seems to be shrinking steadily not just from IO set bonuses but from all the other sources I mentioned previously. It's the reason that I believe that defenders are over due for scrutinization and a potential revamp.

The only places that IOs don't significantly impact the buffer is resistances (since the values provided by IO sets are low) and in providing mez protection. Pre-defiance upgrade blasters were the biggest customer since the melee ATs have their own, other Defenders can have their own or can have powerful debuffs to reduce the likely hood of being mezzed and Controllers have those same buffs/debuffs available, have mez protection available in an Epic, and have access to AoE hard controls.

You are kind of selling FF a bit short here, IMO, but I guess you are simply acknowledging that IOs can only replace part of FF. Obviously, with DB, FF can surpass IOs, which is why I guess you didn't include it.

I find it mildly amusing that Kins are not included here, since this thread is kind of about the +damage buffs Kins provide; I am pretty sure, now, you are only listing the bonuses that IOs can replace, thus +dam from Kins cannot be replaced by IOs, but it still amused me.

As an alternate PoV, I find the controller to be the AT I'd rather leave out, especially now with loot. Since buffs and debuffs can have my loot to stack on, I find the desirability of hard controls to be very, very low (with enough buff/debuff, even without any enhancements this is true, but the many changes have made it easier with fewer buff/debuffers). Better, IMO, to have the better -resist/+dam//heal/etc. AND AoE blast powers instead of Earthquake, Terrify, or Wormhole. I guess if you stick to the controllers who wield great damage, they can be as good or better than defenders.

I really like this thought process. I have had similar thoughts, but never fleshed them out in this manner. It is interesting to look at and consider from this point of view and in the fashion of just exactly how much of what buff/debuffers do can be replicated by Inventions.

All that being said, I do not find much preferential treatment in game. Defenders still seem able to get teams fine, although its often harder to get defenders to team with, since they have a lower population (at least IME).

Excuse me? Smoke and mirrors? Care to explain? Where am I using misdirection here? I'm calling you out on making a sweeping conclusion that I think is wrong except under specific conditions. It's smoke and mirrors to explain how you're wrong? Oh, poor me indeed.

Yes, yes, all this is understood, though see my OT responses below.

None of it means people are not going to want Defenders.

That's your thesis here - that Defenders are under threat of being replaced by IOs. That people with IOs don't need buffs and debuffs, so they won't invite a Defender to a team. That they don't need buffs or debuffs at the level a Defender can provide, so they'll invite someone else who can buff or debuff to a team.

When I disagreed, you proceeded to give this example, fleshed out over multiple posts, of how your Blaster can get by with IOs and inspiration cascade. When challenged on how your Blaster could perform even better if you added a Defender to the IOs and the inspiration cascade, you started limiting your optimization goals to loot drop rates. Since your Blaster can solo large spawns quickly, and adding any teammates dramatically reduces drop assignments to you, you used this as defense of the idea that people wouldn't want Defenders if they have IOs and inspirations. This conveniently ignores whether other goals might have the same constraints as drop optimization, or whether a drop optimizer/farmer wants anyone else at all on their team

This supports your thesis, but it is not sufficient to make clear it's a problem. When faced with discussion about indiciations that it's not a problem, you continue to harp on the hard numbers. But the numbers on their own don't prove anything. They just show that, yes, everyone has some increased potential to get closer to some attribute caps, being able to benefit less from less total stacking of buffs. The question I've been raising is whether there is still room for improvement to be had by filling out the rest of that space. The answer for the way I play (and most of the people who hang out in that global channel we were talking about) is a resounding yes. Regarding the actual numbers, I want to start out by noting that, at some level, every build is going to find some of these bonuses to be mutually exclusive. You can't have all of these things - you can only have some of them. You can still want buffs for the bonuses you can't get much or any of.

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You're doing it wrong. I have characters who can pump out status effects, damage, and debuffs at extremely high rates, and it is not possible to slot enough +recovery to sustain my endurance burn, even when my attacks typically have 60%+ endurance reduction. I have a Stone Melee brute that has 75% or more endurance reduction in every attack and I cannot sustain my attack chain indefinitely. All my level 50s have all the +end accolades and every endurance recovery singleton IO and and often multiple large or ultimate recovery bonuses. The Brute above has three sets of Impervium Armor slotted, and still I can attack at a speed that will drain my endurance. Once more, you seem to ignore that other people have build goals different from yours - my Brute is a single-target damage oriented build, designed for beat down against those hard targets you eschew as fast as possible. AccMet and Speed Boost are her friends.

Do you really feel anyone is worried about this one? I slotted this IO on a character once. It's coming out on the next respec, because I don't really miss it on anyone else.

You're right, I'm pointing it out.

Defense bonuses make me love getting +def from teammates, because primary shields from one Def/Con/Corr or a handful of lower-tier buffs like Man/Shadowfall can take a character with moderate set bonuses to the softcap. You probably view the softcap as unnecessary. I view it as an enabler to my play goals, which are not the same as yours.

And more is always directly better, right up to the cap.
10-20% damage boost (especially 20%) is tremendously difficult to obtain while obtaining other high-order bonuses such as +defense or +recharge.

And more is always better up to the -DR cap, which it's going to take real debuffers to achieve. The Achilles proc does not self stack from any number of sources. It only stacks with the new PvP -res proc, which also does not stack with itself. (Also, few builds are going to be able to reliably apply -res to large spawns using procs).

By the way, defense debuffs are not that impressive in general, and I can't think of any situations where I'd want them that I wouldn't prefer +toHit bonuses. Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors and VEATs give the best toHit bonuses, and if I'm fighting high +DEF, they're who I want along. Again, I'm happy to stack their Tactics, Fort or bonuses on top of my Kismets. A Kismet alone isn't all that impressive. It's just a lot better than nothing.

Median times:
Task Forces 20 merits/hour (3 min)
Trials 24 merits/hour (2.5 min)
Story Arcs 12 merits/hour (5 min)

This is after the last round of changes which gave a significant boost to story arcs.

Since you're cherry picking, that's a perfect match scenario. Those two powersets were designed to achieve perfection together while everything else was just thrown together willy nilly. Then when you pair that support powerset with others, it still performs better than most of the randomly put together ones. That's hardly balanced.

Hmm, I could have sworn SP stacks with FS to reduce AVs into mewling kittens.

Yeah /Rad is great for groups that can't arrest fast, like maybe all tanker groups before they get into their late 30s or defender/controller groups before their late 30's and the damage/pets kick in. The rest of the time, mobs fall so fast that it doesn't matter how long it would take them to hospitalize your friends because they're already dead.. umm arrested. That only compounds with FF. What use is taking upto 5 times do drop when mobs are arrested in less time than the 2 times it takes to drop?

Kinetics protects along the premise of a good defense is a good offense. Hence why it stands out in terms of efficiency (arrests or loot over time). Small wonder it is the preferred set of farmers everywhere. It also may be the Corr mentality over the Defender mentality. Defenders think of protecting their team while us Corrs think of getting them before they get us. Either way I think Defs and their non /kin primaries get the short end of the stick.

Does adding +Def double their arrest speed the way adding a Kin would? Does it give them Rain of Arrows twice per spawn in a group situation? Then again, we're talking Blaster damage multipliers here, which means 1 RoA application with FS could probably clear out +4 grapes. So I don't see how +Def could beat that unless you're talking about two boxing with the Defender as a pure buffbot instead of actually teaming.

IMO the control on liquefy is almost non existant. The knockdown is unreliable and if I remember correctly the hold is only mag so it doesnt work on LT's.

The cast time on RI is 3.1 seconds.. The cast time on Liquefy is 2.67 seconds.. for me thats not a huge difference.. Other than the fact you dont need a target for it.. IMO it is very ver underwhelming for a Tier 9 Power.. It SHOULD have massive -res on it IMO since thats what Sonic is all about.. but it doesnt.. AND with a 300 second recharge time you cant even use the debuffs as often as Radiation Infection which you can use every mob... and its great on AV's

Now as far as Disruption Field its a 2.7 second cast time with a 15 foot radius 30% -res and a healthy toggle cost at 1.o4 per second.. AND you need a melee ally to cast it on..

Disruption ARROW which is what I was speaking of is a 1.16 cast time with ea 25 foot radius albiet a lower -res at 20%.. However it works at range and with three recharge IO's it is effectively perma and can be up every mob... and it would cost less end to run... Its ONLY drawback is that it has less -res... I would much rather be able to cast it whenever and WHEREVER I want it..

This only points out that IMO Sonic is NOT as good a set as it could be... Its Tier 9 is lackluster... and Trick Arrow can be just as good if not better in some ways at debuffing foes with sonic...

i take it then that you're using two accounts with the Defender simply being a buff-bot? In that scenario of course the pure mitigation-boosting Defender (if played in a passive support role) is a drag on performance. Defenders get two powersets for a reason, and sets like FF are not designed around boosting the overall effectiveness of a single player, but increasing the survivability of a whole team while leaving plenty of room to attack. When dual-boxing, sets like Empathy make a lot more sense to play as largely passive support. In any event, if you're playing your Defender as a nursemaid who hangs back and passes out energy drinks and band-aids as needed, then (IMO) you're doing it wrong.

Good points, but wouldn't having a defender run by an actual player along provide you with an increased level of performance? How much faster would you be with, say, an Empathy defender buffing you with Fortitude, running Assault and keeping your green bar topped off? What would an extra 50% damage and 20% defense at all times do for you?

Well we have done it with 2 blasters and 2 blasters and a Fire/kin. You can bring your forcefielder, or I can bring my emp and we can see just how well it works. We should be able to see pretty quickly just how much the defender is contribuiting to the effort.

You know me, I'm always up for a speed Posi! I think we have done it before using my Emp/Sonic, once or twice, now that I think about it...

I am indeed. It wasn't intended as a complete list just a demonstration of "many". I also neglected to include Transference in the endurance recovery section even though the power can take you from completely empty to 1.4% away from completely full in the 2.27 seconds it takes to cast it with +3 SOs alone.

My FF/Dark/Dark puts out enough defense (with manuvers) to soft cap the entire team even if they are totally naked as far as defense goes. All they have to do is stay inside dispersion bubble. Since I alternate Tenebrious Tentacles with Night Fall fast enough to double stack the acc debuff I can keep the team there even in a defense debuffing atmosphere like Cimerora. It also gives the team a bit of freedom to move around outside of dispersion bubble when facing non-defense debuffing mobs. The problem my defender faces though is that IO'd armored toons don't need my services at all and even squishies with partial defense slotting would be in just as good shape with the services of a /FF controller. The main point that I'm making is that IO sets allow anyone to completely dispense with the 2 most potent buff powers in the FF power set. The only things that the set bonuses don't grant is the secondary effects of the powers such as toxic resistance in the case of Deflection Shield and resistance to endurance drain in Insulation Shield. Secondary effects which even the forum's forcefield guru sometimes forgets.

Fulcrum shift is the most wildly broken power in the game. There is absolutely no IO set bonuses that allow you to replicate a power that can be double stacked and leave an entire team at the damage hard cap. IO set bonuses don't even come close to replicating this. Nothing in the game (save the Brute inherent) can give it any competiton. In my opinion one of the worst mistakes the original dev crew ever made was making it available to an AT that could pair it with a damage aura especially when that same AT has an Epic power that can prevent offensive toggles from being dropped due to mez.

Controllers bring so much to the table though. Their buffs/debuffs are nearly as good as defender buffs especially when combined with set bonus used by players. The only FF/ defender combination that can keep a team buffed nearly to the defense soft cap AND immobilize the spawn so that it's melee attacks can't be used is the FF/Dark. Every /FF controller can do this though. The FF/ Defender can only passively float/stand there and blast while his/her team is being shredded by a defense cascade failure. The /FF controller can halt that cascade in it's tracks by applying an AoE stun or hold.

It's been gnawing at me for several months now. My own IO use has shown me just how much the Defender has been dinged by set bonuses while at the same time this effect makes me so much less interested in playing my own defenders. The last defender I created was right before I14 went live and I haven't played ANY of my defenders since I16 was in open Beta. When I first started playing CoH the defender was my favorite AT even now defenders are third highest for me in terms of how many of a particular AT I have in my stable.

While I do not find much preferential treatment either the fact that I find any (beyond those n00bs that don't know any better) is a subject for both irritation and concern. I can see many things on the horizon that have the potential to further decrease the population of the lowest population, blue side, basic AT.

@Uberguy

/e facepalm

You are very very good at precision focusing on the minutiae while being oblivious to the big picture. Please feel free to continue gyrating on the head of your pin. I'm done playing catch with you.

Edit:

You picked up on the point I have been making all along. Congrats on "turning to the dark side."

I think a Stone/Fire tanker and a Kin/Sonic defender could probably do pretty well mowing through large spawns and knocking down hard targets. I have to admit, I'd love to see that race myself, I think it would be fun for both teams.

I was never at any point unaware that what you said here underlaid your position. I wasn't arguing with that. My whole point, which you have at different times seemingly ignored or (at one point) dismissed outright, is that this is not an IO-related problem. I even either directly mentioned or alluded to both Controllers and Corruptors as replacements for Defenders in multiple of my replies to you.

When I've challenged you here, you brought up defenses for your position. You picked the defenses. You are the one that chose the qualitative and quantitative arguments you rebutted me with. You then chastise me for actually refuting them? If I was gyrating on a pin it was because you mounted your arguments on one.

I have never once argued in this thread that there aren't viable replacements for Defenders. I disagree with your assertions (and subsequent defense of) involving IOs as a major contribution to their replacement.

FF is possibly the worst buff powerset you could bring along to speed yourself up. This is often a complaint about the powerset - of all the buff/debuff sets, FF is the most purely defensive. It has no ability to actually speed you forward; rather it can only reduce how much foes slow you down. If your character is such that foes don't slow you down much anyway (not just an IO thing, you could have been playing a tougher AT), then FF isn't going to have a strong effect in general. (There are some cases where this might not be true. It's possible for the increased survival to mean you could leverage AoEs on far more foes at a time. What really matters is how much slower than your absolute optimal speed you have to go to survive foe packing that optimizes your attacks. The tougher you are, the closer you can get to your optimum.)

In contrast, buffs that increase your recharge, recovery or effective damage all can speed you up directly.

One could build a character that has tons of +recharge/+damage/+recovery and (almost) no built in mitigation and then team with a bubbler.

It might be interesting to see which would be faster, using IOs to shore up mitigation and teaming with a Kin or using IOs to improve offense and shoring up mitigation with a Bubbler.

I am having trouble understanding how you are reaching your conclusions. Defense sped up my blaster incredibly in doing the TF. The first time I attempted it, my blaster had no set IOs just common IOs and a build that wasnt the greatest for the TF. That time I died 54 times trying to get it done. The Rollister mission was just impossible for me with what I had, and I managed to take a toon that had nearly no debt or defeat badges and get most of them off that one run. A forcefielder by my side at that time would have been very welcome. I came back though with a set IO build that gave me my bonuses when I exemped down and I changed out some of my power picks. What was key for me was putting in a stealth IO, a six slot coercive persuasion in world of confusion, Explosive Strike, 5 low level blessing of the zephyr sets and a steadfast unique. By using IOs I was able to give myself most of the benefit I got from having two defenders . It turned out having the rest of it just didn't help much and the trouble wasn't worth it.

Now if I understand you and schismatrix, you are trying to say I would do better if I had another type of defender. That is definitely maybe, I hope to give it a try with Panzer sometime soon. We have some very nice numbers running without defenders so it would be hard for the defender to measure up.

You took ONE part of my arguement and tried to make it seem as if it was the only point. I did not say that IOs were the ONLY reason that buffs are less needed or the only reasons that Defenders may be less desireable on a team than their buffing cousins but they are a part of a series of changes that has been, and is, shrinking the defender role.

Prior to IOs I had a total of 2 Blasters that "could" solo on invincible missions padded with 7 other players even with inspiration use. Now in the post I9 era, once they have their set bonuses they ALL can.

Prior to IOs I had 1 scrapper that could solo an AV even with inspiration use. Now in the post I9 era, once they have their set bonuses they ALL can.

Even taken by itself that can't be hand waved as insignificant as you have been trying to do. It's not too long of a leap of logic to see that it has an impact on the role of buffers and from there it's not too long a leap to see that it has the greatest potential to negatively impact the AT (defenders) who's primary in game role is providing buffs (or debuffs).

Either you haven't been able to do that for yourself with set bonuses (which I find difficult to believe) or you are being purposely obtuse.

The bottom line is, that in light of all the game changes. including IO use, the defender role needs to be re-examined and may need to be updated.

From having tested it myself it's the kin all the way.

The bubbler brings only defense and mag 8.63 mez protection to hold/stun/immobilize for mitigation (some of the defense and all of the mez protection requires you to stay within 25' of the bubbler) and toxic and endurance drain resistance.

The kin brings increased recovery, increased damage, increased recharge (these things synergize with each other and provide their own self multiplication) mag 13 protection to hold/stun/immob, mag 10 protection to KB (and smashing and energy resistance), and reactive mitigation in the form of a melee range AoE heal (which can be used to break sleeps).

Edit: Though my fastest time ever was with my Plant/TA controller. I have all 3, Bubble defender, Kin defender, and Plant controller on Justice or I can transfer to Test for testing purposes. I'd be happy to do so. Let me know if you are interested.