Endurance Usage on Sonic Resonance
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AlienOne,
Posted on: 2009-10-31 03:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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A constant 22.5% or 30% (depending on AT) resistance debuff to the enemy independent of anything else you do. It's a great power, on paper at least. I agree with you about the endurance costs, I'd love to take Disruption Field on my Defender but the cost is just way too much combined with Leadership. Granted, the set's toggle costs are in line with other power sets like Radiation Emission or Force Fields, so this is probably Working As Intended.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
What is so special about Disruption Field that makes it cost so much?
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Actually, Force Field is generally cheaper to run than Sonic. Here's a comparison power by power:
FF:
PFF - .26
Disbursion Bubble - .52
Repulsion Field - .78
Force Bubble - .69
Sonic:
Sonic Disbursion - .52
Sonic Repulsion - 1.04
Disruption Field - 1.04
I'm not sure what's so special about Sonic Repulsion that it costs more than either Repulsion Field or Repel (in the Kinetics set). I have honestly never actually even seen the power used, nor can I imagine ever using it at the price. I do use Repulsion Field on my FF Defender from time to time, though.
Point, but Enervating Field has the same cost as Disruption Field and much of the same function. I'm guessing that Sonic Repulsion costs more because it is ally-focused instead of personal use. Not that this justifies the cost, but I'm not a fan of repel powers anyway, and a lot of sets have their stinkers 
edit: Looking over your post again, I'd like to make a couple points. One, while Force Field does cost less to run all the toggles, saying 2.25 end per second is less than 2.6 end per second isn't much when both amounts are obnoxiously huge.
Two, realistically I don't think you would use all of Sonic's toggles at once either, since Sonic Repulsion and Disruption are at odds - they would have to be on different allies that don't crowd together or Repulsion would just knock foes out of Disruption's debuff. This doesn't add much to the discussion, but I sure like to nitpick!
Endurance problems are one thing why I don't really enjoy my Sonic defender. The second thing is the lackluster tier 9 power. I feel Sonic Disruption should cost less End than Enervating Field from Rad because SD only does -Res whereas ER does both -Res and -Dmg.
Other than that the only real qualm with Sonic is that Sonic Siphon is single target...
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Considering powers like repulsion field, force bubble, personal forcefield, and sonic repulsion are rarely used in typical combat, and even foolishly used if all at once, I'm not sure your comparison is relevant at all. If you try to use disruption field and sonic repulsion in the same place at the same time, you'll have larger issues than endurance. The same goes for PFF, repulsion field, and force bubble.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Actually, Force Field is generally cheaper to run than Sonic. Here's a comparison power by power:
FF: PFF - .26 Disbursion Bubble - .52 Repulsion Field - .78 Force Bubble - .69 Sonic: Sonic Disbursion - .52 Sonic Repulsion - 1.04 Disruption Field - 1.04 I'm not sure what's so special about Sonic Repulsion that it costs more than either Repulsion Field or Repel (in the Kinetics set). I have honestly never actually even seen the power used, nor can I imagine ever using it at the price. I do use Repulsion Field on my FF Defender from time to time, though. |
The major necessary costs associated with the two powersets comes from the click buffs and the dispursion buff, neither of which causes more endurance problems for one set than the other. Disruption field is the most significant endurance difference, and its costs are normal compared to the only other -res toggle in the game.
It's not so much that the powers have innapropriately high endurance costs compared to other sets, but that the combined sum of the powers that a player is likely to use constantly inhibits any other action, especially before stamina.
Given the lack of any power in forcefield that directly increases a team's damage, I'm not sure forcefields comes out the winner.
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Yes, this. There's no reason for SD to cost the same as EF when it does less and its effective range is about as equivalent (ie, there's no major advantage of it being ally toggled versus enemy toggled).
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Originally Posted by DSorrow
Endurance problems are one thing why I don't really enjoy my Sonic defender. The second thing is the lackluster tier 9 power. I feel Sonic Disruption should cost less End than Enervating Field from Rad because SD only does -Res whereas ER does both -Res and -Dmg.
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I find it advantageous to not have to re-toggle it every spawn (which means it actually uses more endurance than EF, since EF shuts off a lot, whereas SD (hopefully) does not).
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
(ie, there's no major advantage of it being ally toggled versus enemy toggled).
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I mostly meant in terms of radius - you don't debuff significantly more or less (I think it's less due to clipping, though) with SD. But good point.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I find it advantageous to not have to re-toggle it every spawn (which means it actually uses more endurance than EF, since EF shuts off a lot, whereas SD (hopefully) does not).
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
What is so special about Disruption Field that makes it cost so much?
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If I'm not mistaken, this is the only -res toggle in the game you can place on an ally rather than an enemy. If it had a -dam element as well it would be grossly overpowered when combined with Sonic's +Res buffs.
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On the other hand, you can't even USE disruption field solo - where EF can be used whether in a group or solo. I would tend to consider the ally vs enemy toggle nature of the two powers a wash at best. For those of us who solo a lot disruption field is almost a total loss, unless you are a controller with a pet to use as an anchor and even then isn't very usefull until L32. I would say that lowering the end cost (or adding in the -dam just like EF) would be reasonable for this power at least.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I find it advantageous to not have to re-toggle it every spawn (which means it actually uses more endurance than EF, since EF shuts off a lot, whereas SD (hopefully) does not).
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As for the other toggles I would think that sonic dispersion probably has an appropriate end cost as its basically the resistance version of dispersion bubble. You could argue that the resistance it grants isn't equivalent to the def granted by dispersion bubble but that has always been hard to figure - the old 1% def = 2% resistance rule is more honored in how often it is broken than how often it is followed. Sonic repulsion is even harder to figure - it is basically the same power as repulsion field but it costs 50% more basic EPS and 250% more end for each target repelled. I guess the dev's think that the ability to use it on an ally is more valuable than the ability to use it on yourself. I can't really decide one way or the other on that myself. Much like repulsion field I bet it is difficult to use correctly so the actual end cost is probably somewhat moot as I suspect neither sonic repulsion or repulsion field is used constantly like the other toggles.
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On Sonic Repulsion:
You can remove it when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. That said, the endurance cost on it is a bit insane...and for some FLUFFYKITTEN (stupid censorship...I'm going to make a point of using this for every apparent 'swear' from now on...) reason, it has a ToHit check that flashes constantly and I'm not certain if it actually applies or not, since it fires so quickly and you can't slot accuracy into it.
The endurance cost on it is a little bogus for how quickly it fires. Not the toggle cost, the per-target cost. 5 targets in range of a usage make it a "click" power more than an actual toggle, because you will not have endurance after it flings things away. It makes harassing a Tank that much harder. Or at least harassing the AI on Polished Pooman.
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Lackluster tier 9???? Liquefy is an awesome power. it's like Earthquake on Steroids. It has awesome IO options. It is a huge debuff and a control power rolled into one (not to mention doing more damage than Repulsion bomb). It can also be cast from behind cover.
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Originally Posted by DSorrow
Endurance problems are one thing why I don't really enjoy my Sonic defender. The second thing is the lackluster tier 9 power. I feel Sonic Disruption should cost less End than Enervating Field from Rad because SD only does -Res whereas ER does both -Res and -Dmg.
Other than that the only real qualm with Sonic is that Sonic Siphon is single target... |
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As has been stated numerous times before it's not fair to compare single powers against each other you have to compare the sets as a whole to one another. You shouldn't look at EF and SD against each other for effects.
Being an ally based toggle and having built in mezz protection in the set, makes it so on a team SD will provide more -res than EF will. If EF's anchor is killed early in the fight or you are mezzed then it does nothing. SD's anchor should usually last from the very beginning of the fight to the very last enemy in the group and be knocked off much less due to Mezz, also don't foget that SD won't generate the aggro that EF will.
Another thing to consider is that SD is a fire and forget toggle. it doesn't need to be re-applied each spawn, giving you the freedom of doing something else at the beginning of each battle.
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I personally don't run Sonic Repulsion for two simple reasons.
1. I don't have end trouble with just disruption field and Sonic Dispersion, that would absolutely change with Repulsion
2. like Repulsion Field/Repel, it's a situational power, unlike those two, it requires a team-mate that understands how to use it.
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I don't understand what you mean about using disruption field and sonic repulsion in the same place at the same time being problematic. Do you mean using them on the same teammate? Well, of course you wouldn't do that. But if using sonic repulsion means you have to drop disruption field on the tank... well I can't imagine a situation where that is ever a viable tactic. Maybe if the team is about to wipe and everyone is running away? What situation are you picturing where you would take Disruption Field off a tank in order to use Sonic Repulsion instead? | Considering powers like repulsion field, force bubble, personal forcefield, and sonic repulsion are rarely used in typical combat, and even foolishly used if all at once, I'm not sure your comparison is relevant at all. If you try to use disruption field and sonic repulsion in the same place at the same time, you'll have larger issues than endurance. The same goes for PFF, repulsion field, and force bubble. |
I also didn't mean to imply that a Force Fielder would typically run all 4 toggles at once. PFF and Force Bubble, as you point out, are mutally exclusive. Typically a FF will run Dispersion Bubble all the time, and Repulsion Field when it is needed. A Sonic will run both Disruption Field and Sonic Dispersion all the time, and Sonic Repulsion never because the power is situational and costs more to run than Force Bubble and PFF combined, even before counting the additional endurance lost when something is actually repulsed.
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Don't bother trying to point out why Liquefy is insanely powerful. Those that hate it won't listen to reason.
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Originally Posted by Brynstar
Lackluster tier 9???? Liquefy is an awesome power. it's like Earthquake on Steroids. It has awesome IO options. It is a huge debuff and a control power rolled into one (not to mention doing more damage than Repulsion bomb). It can also be cast from behind cover.
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I don't see situations that justify the use of sonic repulsion as those that warrant the the use of disruption field, generally. If there is a tank with disruption field who is using it effectively, the addition of sonic repulsion on anyone in the team is very likely going to counteract that, especially if it's left on long enough for the endurance cost to matter. If disruption field isn't being used effectively, then it might as well be turned off to save endurance, which I've done on more than one occasion.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
But if using sonic repulsion means you have to drop disruption field on the tank... well I can't imagine a situation where that is ever a viable tactic. Maybe if the team is about to wipe and everyone is running away? What situation are you picturing where you would take Disruption Field off a tank in order to use Sonic Repulsion instead?
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If the power is only being used very briefly, then comparing the toggle costs aren't very informative, right?
That's not an attempt to justify the endurance costs, it's just that I can only see powers like forcebubble and sonic repulsion being more problematic if they had no endurance cost, as people that don't care about the consequences of those powers would turn them off.
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I'm still not understanding the logic here. Why would you turn off Disruption Field because you are trying to use a knockback aura on a different team member? If the answer is "because of the endurance cost" then it seems to illustrate pretty effectively that Sonic is saddled with some endurance limitations. If the answer is that "it would make enemies go flying" then I have to wonder what is so different between Sonic Repulsion and Repulsion Field. I have and use Repulsion Field on my FF and enemies don't get flung all over.|
I don't see situations that justify the use of sonic repulsion as those that warrant the the use of disruption field, generally. If there is a tank with disruption field who is using it effectively, the addition of sonic repulsion on anyone in the team is very likely going to counteract that, especially if it's left on long enough for the endurance cost to matter. If disruption field isn't being used effectively, then it might as well be turned off to save endurance, which I've done on more than one occasion. If the power is only being used very briefly, then comparing the toggle costs aren't very informative, right? That's not an attempt to justify the endurance costs, it's just that I can only see powers like forcebubble and sonic repulsion being more problematic if they had no endurance cost, as people that don't care about the consequences of those powers would turn them off. |
For the record, Force Bubble has a much, much lower endurance cost than Sonic Repulsion. It costs 40%-ish less at its base and doesn't take away endurance for each enemy repelled. It's also worth noting that the power used to cost considerably more endurance than it currently does, and it was changed precisely because a combination of being marginally useful and extremely costly made most people skip it.
Sonic Repulsion actually has similarities to another Force Field power that has since been changed: Repulsion Bomb. The premise of this power was that you could cast it on an ally and knockback any enemies standing nearby. The power now does knockdown and damage instead. Make Sonic Repulsion do knockdown (perhaps one tick every 10 seconds) and I will never complain about its obscene endurance cost again.
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Just for note, the biggest difference is that on Repulsion Field, you have complete control over how and where it's used.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
If the answer is that "it would make enemies go flying" then I have to wonder what is so different between Sonic Repulsion and Repulsion Field. I have and use Repulsion Field on my FF and enemies don't get flung all over.
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As Sonic Repulsion is a toggle you place on an ally, you only have control over when it's used. To utilize it to the same level of extent as RF would require a great deal of teammate micromanagement.
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Nitpick: unless you are a post-32 Controller. Or, eventually, a Mastermind when they get /sonic.|
Originally Posted by EricHough
On the other hand, you can't even USE disruption field solo -
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Hmm. Now there would be a use for running Sonic Disruption & Repulsion at the same time; Disruption on the Bruiser, Repulsion on the suicidal arsonist...at least keep the guys he insists on running up to out of melee.
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I don't normally jump on people over reading comprehension but the very next sentance in my post made exactly the same point you did about controller pets:|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
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Hmm. Now there would be a use for running Sonic Disruption & Repulsion at the same time; Disruption on the Bruiser, Repulsion on the suicidal arsonist...at least keep the guys he insists on running up to out of melee. |
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| On the other hand, you can't even USE disruption field solo - where EF can be used whether in a group or solo. I would tend to consider the ally vs enemy toggle nature of the two powers a wash at best. For those of us who solo a lot disruption field is almost a total loss, unless you are a controller with a pet to use as an anchor and even then isn't very usefull until L32. I would say that lowering the end cost (or adding in the -dam just like EF) would be reasonable for this power at least. |
From a personal standpoint as much as I would like to play a /sonic controller I probably never will - I solo to much and you basically get 2 useful solo powers before L32 (sonic siphon and sonic dispersion) and 4 really useful solo powers out of the entire set (assuming you put disruption field on your pet AND it goes into melee often). Oddly enough I suspect I would play a FF controller long before a sonic - it at least offers a lot of personal protection to a controller even if it lacks the usual resistance debuff powers that help controllers out so much and repulsion bomb offers some nice AE damage you can't get out of sonic.
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Endurance cost on Sonic Repulsion could be lower for Defenders and Corrupters. The Recharge on Liquefy could be lower for both Defenders and Corrupters. It seems to me to be that it's because of Controllers that Liquefy has such a long recharge. In which case Sonic should differ on Controllers.
These changes would make the sets more FUN without overpowering anything imo. FUN is what you should balance things around to some extent.
Also Psionic Resistance added to Clarity. It's someones idea and I like it. It'll probably mean a greater end cost on Clarity but thats okay.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Endurance cost on Sonic Repulsion could be lower for Defenders and Corrupters. The Recharge on Liquefy could be lower for both Defenders and Corrupters. It seems to me to be that it's because of Controllers that Liquefy has such a long recharge. In which case Sonic should differ on Controllers.
These changes would make the sets more FUN without overpowering anything imo. FUN is what you should balance things around to some extent. Also Psionic Resistance added to Clarity. It's someones idea and I like it. It'll probably mean a greater end cost on Clarity but thats okay. |
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
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In my opinion, almost across the board, endurance costs are excessive. Defenders suffer more than most. My FF/Nrg Defender typically has to rest in the middle of any fight (eg. Defeat a minion, rest, defeat a minion, rest, defeat a minion, rest, defeat a minion, rest, wear the Lieutenant to around 20% health, rest, defea the leiutenant). It's ludicrous. I can't imagine what it must be like for Defenders without PFF.
It amounts to this: The devs have a strange notion of what's FUN if they think standing around unable to act because you have no endurance is fun. To me, it's just frustrating, and is among the main reasons I constantly consider leaving this game.
Just wondering if anyone else feels the endurance costs of Sonic Resonance are a bit high for what the set actually brings to the table. The unmodified total cost of Sonic's 3 toggles is 2.6 endurance per second.
One these three powers is terribly skippable (Sonic Repulsion). Even if the power was useful, the fact that it costs 1.04 endurance per second combined with the 2.5% endurance hit you take everytime an enemy is repulsed more or less ensures you would never be able to use this.
Disruption Field, too, feels heavy to me. It's not useless but giving it the same endurance cost as Hot Feet or Arctic Air feels extreme to me. Arctic Air, for example, offers -recharge, -speed, +confusion, +fear, -stealth, and a radius 10 feet bigger than Disruption Field. Hot Feet offers direct damage, slow, and afraid. Both powers are also slottable with IOs. What is so special about Disruption Field that makes it cost so much?